Will NC guns ever be good as TC guns

Not all of a Gauss Saws bullets hit at the range it's meant to be used either. If you get so close that you can hit all bullets with the Saw, the Carv won't be missing very many either.

The Carv has +0.1 stand still CoF and -0.1 stand move CoF compared to the Gauss Saw.
At 50m range
0.0 CoF means a target circle of no diameter (Saw)
0.1 CoF means a target circle of 8cm diameter (Carv)
0.4 CoF means a target circle of 35cm diameter (Carv)
0.5 CoF means a target circle of 44cm diameter (Saw)

So first shots should be able to hit a human sized target with both weapons. Assuming recoil can be controlled, the Saw can hit maybe one more before CoF gets too large (+0.07 per shot) while the Carv could hit three more (+0.05 per shot), assuming a soldier sized target is about 50cm wide. Obviously due to random spread, more shots _will_ hit, just the chance of missing starts at this point.

Carv:
0.45 CoF, circle 39cm
0.50 CoF, circle 44cm
0.55 CoF, circle 48cm

Saw:
0.57 CoF, circle 50cm
0.64 CoF, circle 56cm
0.71 CoF, circle 62cm

While moving, first four bullets from a Carv hit the same area as the first two from a moving Saw (assuming recoil control and aiming is spot on), dealing 4*130 = 520 damage vs the Saw 2*182 =364. Obviously ROF is different and the Carv doesn't actually have time to shoot 4 bullets in the time Saw fires two, but just to show the Carv can actually be more accurate than the Saw in short bursts because of its lower starting CoF while moving (Carv gains more CoF over time than the Saw).

While stationary, the Saw has advantage (but standing still means you're easier to hit).

got to stop the edit while I still can.. hopefully anyways..

Why is it that forward grip now only reduces horizontal recoil?

Doesn't this change effectively mean that this attachment is more or less useless on NC 200 damage per shot weapons?

agent00kevin? Garbage.

Funny how the "pros" don't even know what they are talking about.

Gauss Saw, Has a higher recoil and CoF per bullet.
It means that it's harder to control, because of the Higher Recoil/CoF making it harder to hit multiple bullets in the same target.


It has 200 of damage but has a RoF so low that the DPS is lower then about 90% of others weapons.

You have a weapon that's harder to control and take more time to kill the enemy.

Now i ask you: What exactly you win using the Gauss Saw?

It's harder to use, but "IF" you go and land all the bullets in the target you still killing it slower because of the lower DPS.

What is this I don't even

But not higher recoil/CoF over time. Plus the recoil is only higher in the vertical, the horizontal recoil is lower than most.

I mean as an NC-only player I don't think the Saw is as Godly as many claim it to be, but if you're going to reply like that at least make sure first that you're correct.
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Gauss Saw has 0.55 vert recoil and 0.175 horizontal recoil, and 500 RoF.
Carv has 0.4 vert recoil and 0.225 horizontal recoil, and 750 RoF.

Over a period of a minute (with infinite clips) the Saw would have had 275 vertical and 87.5 horizontal recoil while the Carv would have had 300 and 168.75 respectively. From this we see that the Carv has 300/270=1.11 --> 11% more vertical recoil than the Saw and 92% more horizontal.

Both weapons have balanced left+right recoil, so the horizontal recoil works to counter itself half the time. In these cases a smaller recoil 'step' is better, since one step to the left or right is less likely to cause a miss, while the next shot may correct it. And if the recoil trends one way for multiple shots in a row, manually adjusting for it is easier with the smaller steps (you won't overcompensate as much if the recoil trend changes).

Still, it's pretty hard to claim the Saw has more recoil over time, and the same holds true for CoF bloom over time.
At 0.07*500/60 the Saw has 0.583 CoF bloom per second while the Carv has 0.625.

Over time recoil doesn't matter, you don't do damage looking at the enemy.

You do damage landing bullets, if every bullet you shoot you have a higher recoil it means that you have less chance to hit the enemy per bullet you shoot.

PS: If you have a lower recoil per bullet you have to compensate less to hit more. Simple as that.

Largely, yes.

If over time recoil doesn't matter, then we still have the fact that Gauss Saw has less horizontal recoil (you know, the harder to compensate one) than many other weapons, per shot.

If you go and adjust your mouse sensitivity, you can even make it just as easy to compensate a Saw as it is to compensate for a Carv, although the initial aiming/looking around will feel different.

EVEN IF i make it easier to compensate i still having lower DPS.

your point?

PS: Don't try to find arguments where isn't. Gauss Saw is a joke and you are under the placebo effect.

I'm just hoping everyone argues based on facts, and you weren't. Also, check out what I typed before regarding the placebo effect..

You may also notice that I pointed out how the Carv can be more accurate than the Gauss Saw in short bursts while ADS moving, and how the stationary advantage of Saw comes with making yourself an easy sniper target.

I think you're automatically assigning me into the "this person has opposing opinion from mine" because I corrected your error.

It's harder to counter recoil with the SAW than the CARV, but you CAN do it.
What the CARV users CANNOT do that the SAW users have better is using:
* ADS CoF while not moving : CARV CoF is 3 times bigger (even more in SAW case, in fact). CARV user don't have any way to reach a 0 CoF. Not even a difficult way to do it. Just NO WAY.
* Horizontal recoil. It's the left/right jitter of your sight after vertical recoil is applied. It's random, you cannot predict the leftish/rightish jitter compared to the theorical perfect angle of vertical recoil. SAW horizontal jitter is 30% better than CARV one. Note how a random left/right deviation CANNOT BE COUNTERED. Again, we are better in behavior that has no counter.

So, in exchange of having something more difficult to counter, but still counterable, SAW has the upper hand compared to CARV in departments CARV user have zero control over, no matter how skilled they are. Ie : you get better result practicing SAW to counter recoil and aiming, in the range where these parameters are important, while you can practice all day with a CARV, and still hit far less at these ranges.

Being "easy" is not equal to being "good". Practicing your recoil counter on SAW will lead you to the same accuracy while using the weapon on targets farther away than what you'd expect with CARV. Practicing your recoil counter on CARV is super easy and will net you .... nothing.

I think you may be placing too much importance on 1 round having 0 COF if you are standing still and ADS.

Movement and FOV are among the most important factors and you loose both for getting 1 accurate shot. Meanwhile, TR/VS weapons are much better for shooting while moving and shooting from the hip.

Moreover, forward grip can reduce horizontal recoil and (now) does nothing for vertical recoil- basically meaning that 1 important 100 cert attachment is effectively useless for NC 200 damage weapons. Unfortunately, the other stats these weapons have make them relatively bad at CQC and hipfire- even with the laser sight the ACX-11 is not competitive in CQC or while hipfiring and the same can be said of the SAW.

Several things.
First, I never said SAW was godlike, this is an overstatement abundant in these forums.
I'm just listing advantages of the gun that were not even taken into consideration.

Second :
"bad" ADS CoF on the move is a particularity of ONLY the SAW. NC have plenty of weapons which are equally usable while shooting ADS on the move. Same for hipfire shooting.I honestly don't see much hipfire accuracy difference (not talking about SAW here), the CQC difference to me is a result of raw DPS and clip size.

Third :
0 CoF, or 0.03 for that matter, is not only usable for the first shot. It's all dependant on the range. If 0 CoF is usefull only on the 1st shot, you are shooting at an extremely far target. There's a whole set of range where you don't need a perfect CoF.
Let's say the target is at ideal distance for a 0.5 "aperture" (I don't know the unit SOE uses for deviations). You start with your Gauss with a 0.03 CoF, on a 0.175 H Recoil random element. You gain a 0.06 CoF bloom per shot. You'll be above 0.5 after the 5th shot, 835 dmg. Do the same on a 0.1 CoF, 0.225 H Recoil Cycler, gaining 0.05 CoF bloom per shot. You'e above 0.5 after the 4th shot, 572 dmg. At both these points, both weapons will begin to miss the target despite having perfect recoil counter by their user (talking about an ideal supersoldier). You see the effect of better starting CoF right there, more bullets on target, each doing more damage, allowing longer burst on a weapon with a better burstability (better 1st shot multiplier)

Again, I'm not saying NC gear is godlike, I'm trying to depict its advantages. If this advantage is enough or not is imho more a question of playstyle than anything else.

Finally! Couldnt agree more, just wish my outfit mates would believe me that they dont need to spend money/certs on a carbine.....

You make some good points here and I never said you said the SAW was godlike.

Though bad ADS COF on the move (and bad COF in general) is not a particularity of ONLY the SAW- let me introduce you to the ACX-11 (I mentioned this in my earlier post).

Also, you do these calculations comparing the Guass Rifle and the Cycler (both ARs) without mentioning that they reach this 0.5 bloom at different speeds because of ROF. Guass Rifle 600 RPM wheras Cycler 845 RPM so the Cycler fires almost 30% faster, would reach this 0.5 30% faster and therefore you can pack more bursts into a shorter period of time. Cycler sports 27% greater damage per second than the Guass Rifle.

I'm not trying to say that NC gear is junk but I do think the game is oriented more towards CQC given the damage dropoff and other mechanics. I also think the developers place too many drawbacks on high damage per shot (low DPS, low mag ammo, low bullet velocity, bad hipfire COF, strong vertical recoil, etc.) when the only drawback to high ROF appears to be horizontal recoil (something you can mitigate with a forward grip).

The problem is that the SAW is the default weapon for NC HA, and HA is the most played class.

You should add the compensator to reduce vertical recoil.

Yeah, I know- but this does not change that the forward grip is basically useless on NC 200 damage weapons and with the COF values as they are so is the laser sight (what other attachments can you put in that slot?). So, basically, that means that any NC 200 damage weapon does not really benefit from 2 important attachments that benefit much more the VS stereotypic and TR stereotypic weapons.

I've been playing TR with the default Trac-5 and have a solid performance without even yet having unlocked the forward grip or compensator. It spits out bullets fast enough and has enough in the mag that it really makes up for the inherent inaccuracy at the longer ranges plus it starts with a nice enough hipfire COF that it works really well in CQC. It will be interesting to see how it performs once I have the forward grip.

Meanwhile, my experience with the ACX-11 is that it is not competitive in CQC regardless of what attachments you use and at long range it suffers from one of the slowest projectile speeds, slowest ROF, strongest vertical recoil and lowest mag capacity- making it difficult to place shots even while bursting (thus further lowering the ROF) and making every shot vital. At long distance I watch people, intentionally and unintentionally, just pass through the gaps between the shots. About the only range where the ACX-11 is competitive (read: still no advantage but at least no disadvantage) is the difficult to perceive, achieve, and maintain mid-range distance. Often times, if you are exchanging fire (taking some hits) then the fight is simply lost at just about any range.

So people will often say "yeah, NC has a steep learning curve but a high skill ceiling". This is false, NC may have a steep learning curve but since the NC 200 damage weapons also have low DPS compared to other options then the damage ceiling (i.e. skill ceiling) is actually the often the lowest. Too bad I did not do a little more digging when I decided to main NC- I just took it for granted that the faction with the (widely acknowledged) steeper learning curve would also be the one with the highest skill ceiling (again, as was at the time widely, though unfortunately erroneously, believed).

Actually, the base Cycler fires at 750 RPM, and the Gauss rifle is in a higher damage tier, the Cycler only has about 7% higher DPS.