"VS OP" Why?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Vanguard540, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. That_One_Kane_Guy

    1. Considering the abysmal velocities of the primary weapons involved, I'll hazard a guess that vehicle combat taking place at anything like 275m is the exception, not the rule. Regardless, avoiding shots with nearly a full second of travel time isn't exactly groundbreaking nor is it unique to the Magrider.

    2. Acceleration is explicitly needed to calculate the displacement of a body, which is certainly a factor in deciding whether or not a shot can be avoided at all. If you can only shift your 7m wide body 2 meters in a given direction before the shot reaches you it doesn't matter how "pro" you are or how many refire rates you have memorized - all the other guy has to do is aim for the center of your tank and he'll hit you every time. This isn't a variable you can just ignore.
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  2. JibbaJabba

    Also to the OP:

    Lot of VS are there because when it came time to make a 2nd "main", a lot of vets chose the faction with the lowest pop for the challenge.
  3. csvfr

    It was merely to emphasize, that the Vanguard uses 3.75 - 3.25 seconds per shot, and to not consider the segment of players who has no knowledge of this or neglects to prepare, and say, starts changing direction 3 seconds after the last vanguard shot, essentially giving away a free hit. Likewise vanguard players who can't lead / understand projectile traveling but have an idea that they are hitscan weapons as in other, older games, and other edge scenarios. This is also why I said "the pinnacle of skill" originally, to signal that skill differences and deficits were not considered in the exposition, as human mistakes can give one driver an advantage over the other. And even though there might be a technical possibility for the magrider to react and at least partially evade at 275m distance, as the shot uses 1s to travel, or for the vanguard driver to have a tiny window of certainity when the magrider eventually stops strafing, my opinion is still that random movements for the magrider & random guessing for the vanguard are, at the very least generally, their best possible choices in the situation.

    ADAD for infantry works because legit players (without aimbot) has a human reaction time that average ~0.2-0.3s. This means that when an enemy is strafing in one direction, the very reason you are able to hit is because of successfull prediction implicating slightly leading the aim. Moving from side to side fast enough deprives the opponent of the opportunity to predict. This can be aided by client side, lag + rubberbanding, but is not a "reactive dodge" in any case, in the sense that ADADing player sees the bullet and dodges it intentionally in a split second. When you can neither react nor predict as a shooter, it is OK to just drag the aim back and forth, not aiming specifically, because by the time you would aim correctly the enemy would have changed direction. This should ensure a hit count as good as humanly possible on average. When the magrider ADADs, the same phenomenon occurs, the other tank driver cannot be 100% certain of where the magrider will be by the time a bullet arrives and will need to guess.
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  4. csvfr

    It seems as if the magrider uses 1 - 1.5 s to reach full strafe speed on flat terrain, meaning an acceleration in between 4.8 - 7.2 m/s^2. So let's assume that it uses 1.25s for an acceleration of 6m/^s2 until a more precise estimate is up. This means that in 1 second a strafing magrider could be either 7.2 ahead of where it is, or only 4.2m, meaning an uncertainity line of 7.2-4.2 = 3m. That is 40% of it's width which, if aimed for, only will result in a hit if the vanguard driver correctly guessed if the magrider decided to continue strafing or come to a full stop. So yes the calculations are not 100% precise but still illustrates the general idea.
  5. Trebb

    I know I've harped on the BG a ton, and there's been evidence of Dev bias towards VS beyond giving them the fun stuff (a few years back, the VS would 100% win all alert ties. Was coded that way).

    But the biggest piece of evidence to me, is the hornets. An NS weapon that every ESF can buy. Yet....only on the VS is it made even easier mode. NC/TR missiles launch from waaay out on the left/right side of the wings, making even simple targets like base turrets hard to hit at close to mid range. VS? There's no spread, they both shoot right from the front, hitting the target 100%. No worrying about 'will it be the left or right missle this time?' Explain that one to me!
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  6. rajawaya

    This thread is all about just finding little details to nitpick about VS or the other factions, when really all the factions are balanced as is. The only thing that is OP about VS is the leadership on your faction and server sucks, this is true on Emerald where VS has the best outfit leadership. TR and NC fall behind on outfit leadership by a long shot, just doing terrible in comparison to VS, anything that you say in this chat is either details that have no ground or you complaining about players that are just straight up better then you. Even if there is a difference, what it really comes down to is who plays the game better.
  7. thed1rt

    The NC on my ps4 server finally got good leadership or learned from us bcause they have been sundy rushing almost perfectly and stomping the crap out of us this week.
  8. JustGotSuspended


    Someone needs to be introduced to resistances. That is not how the game works, and it's pretty clear you're either totally new to the game or unqualified to speak. The thing is meant to be used charged, which kinda means you're stuck for 3 seconds waiting for a charge. Additionally, since the nerf that causes it's damage to degrade over distance, it's become a long-range launcher...that's only really damaging in CQC.

    If it really dealt 2.7k damage, I would've had 0 problem killing infantry and MAX units in one 3x charged shot. Unfortunately, that's not the case. As I said, I auraxed this and many launchers after the nerfs, I can safely say there's nothing better than the deci/Kraken in terms of launchers. I also know full well you have little experience using the lancer, based on that ignorant comment you made.

    The damage values for a 3x charged shot are:
    700 before 150m
    350 after 300m

    Have a play around with the wiki.

  9. nagibator

    vs op and thats why it lowest pop and ppl prefer other faction
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  10. That_One_Kane_Guy

    I don't know the precise acceleration numbers, but I see nothing wrong with your estimates. Three meters is still less than half the width of the Magrider, though which means there is a point of aim at which your uncertainly line means nothing. It's a tight margin, yes but a player skilled enough to aim for the center of a Magrider is going to be hitting often enough that the ability of that Magrider to shift laterally is going to be less effective than some have suggested. It's certainly a factor but not an insurmountable advantage and it only reduces the closer you get.
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  11. thed1rt

    Have you seen 2 squads all with Lancers and Archers rifles? Its horrifying.
  12. Bonemiser

    Two full squads of anything is going to piss all over an enemy zerg. You could do 24 Strikers for easy mode lock-on without charging, or 24 Phoenixes to kill people from a spawn room guaranteed. It's not a great argument.
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  13. InexoraVC

    What about inertia ? What time is needed to achieve maximum strafe speed ? What time is required to change strafing direction from left to right and achieve maximum speed ? Your "calculations" are ridiculus and your mind looks biased.
  14. InexoraVC

    And noone is complaining about Striker ...
  15. csvfr

    We already took care about that read some posts above. I don't need to make a precise measurment of Magrider acceleration to speak out against something obviousily false. So it is assumed to be 6m/s^2, unless someone makes or links to a youtube video or something. Also it is not best to strafe at maximal speed, if strafing 1.2 m/s or less you can accelerate in the opposite direction and travel 1.8m or more in in this opposite direction in 1s, or keep accelerating in the strafing direction and travel 4.2m in 1s, meaning that there is a full 6m of uncertainity in a strafing magrider's position from one second to the next. Now tell me who is more biased - the one who makes a false claim ("Magrider strafing/dodging is a myth, No tactical advantage here. ") or the one who gives instructions and estimates to figure out the truth. However if you insist on a 1m/s maximal strafing speed and other fantasy numbers you can enter them here https://calculator-online.net/acceleration-calculator/ and get your results.

    On topic though, I don't drive it that much so can only tell what the numbers tell me, and that is that at speeds above 1.2 m/s in either direction the amount of uncertainity decreases down to a minimum of 3m at full strafe speed (7.2m). So the amount of uncertainity in its position per second varies from 3m to 6m throughout the strafing motion, which can be timed and controlled by the driver according to skill, giving the magrider the same effect as having a shrinking/probabilistic hitbox, thus allowing it to dodge shots. Q.E.D
  16. JustGotSuspended

    Yeah, if you're using a platoon of em, anything is going to be horrifying. Even the flare gun would be dangerous if you have 2 squads shooting at you with it. Again, an invalid argument.

    And yeah, I've seen squads of lancers and archers...back when the things were released. Seriously, acting like squads of people using these niche weapons is a norm is another stretch.
  17. JustGotSuspended

    The magrider has directional turbo and the instant recharge ability for it's turbo. That's at least twice it can suddenly accelerate and dodge a shot.

    Obviously it's harder for the thing to dodge shots the closer it gets to a tank, but in most of the tanking scenarios the tanks are far apart, which is why the magrider's advantaged.

    And then with the thing's ability to run stealth and basically get anywhere, it's really not hard for the magrider to flank, get those rear shots in, and dodge whatever panicked shots the victim mbt tries to shoot back.
  18. pnkdth

    At those distances anyone can dodge but the Magrider is obviously better because it has to be. Though I am glad we've finally gotten past the nonsense of Magrider dodging projectiles like its nothing at close/mid range.

    ADADing doesn't work in a Magrider. You'd just look really weird attempting it while and not really making yourself a hard target at all. ADADing relies on being able to rapidly change direction to trick clientside and make animation lag kick in. Thanks to acceleration/deceleration this can't be done in the same manner. If you were to move far enough to make your target miss you will not be ADADing, you will simply be driving in a zig zag or side to side.

    So no, the phenomenon of ADADing does not occur, while it is true there's an element of guesswork that goes for everyone at 300ish meters. The Magrider's primary have even less velocity than a Vanguard's, so the good old back and forth movement and not driving in a straight line will do it for the most part. That's where the Vanguards bigger HP pool and shield comes in alongside the Maggies mobility. Take the Maggie's mobility away and you're left with a gimmicky MBT who share the least HP with the Prowler and nearly identical DPS to that of a Vanguard (but worse projectile velocity).

    For the sake of balance, I'd just like to add that I'm not opposed to improve upon the other MBTs, especially on handling and primary/secondaries. I just don't want to nerf the Magrider to the point where yet another faction get their faction flavour trashed in the name of balance.
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  19. csvfr

    Supernova FPC has the highest KDR, KDR-X, KPU, KPU-X, (statistical) Accuracy, and vehicle KPU. This compared to Titan AP and P2-AP.

    This is not unique to the Supernova FPC as the same ordering (VS best or apprx. shared 1st) occurs when comparing HEAT and HESH cannons on KPU and KDR.

    Track tanks cannot dodge, I'm not exactly sure how you see that happening? Exposing the side armor and driving back and forth?
  20. pnkdth

    The Magrider isn't a bad MBT, agreed. However, since it shares the DPS of a Vanguard and HP of a Prowler is NEEDS to be more accurate and have to be better at avoiding shots. If we look at VKPH and KPH we can also see the Magrider isn't dominating the field at all (looks pretty even, actually). We also know VS tend to have more players per tank (more often 2/2 crewed) which could have an effect on longevity and support (like having another player repairing). The pattern which emerge is TR/NC are more likely to make use of another MBT than crew an existing MBT which deflates KDR/KPU a bit yet in terms of KPH/VKPH the factions are surprisingly level.

    KPU and KDR doesn't care how you get your kills, after all. Infiltrators and BASRs is probably the most obvious comparison where you might get a really cool KDR/KPU but a rather dismal SPH/KPH compared to classes like the HA or LA.

    Yes, but not just rocking back and forth. At those ranges staying mobile is very useful, so just switching position randomly is a good way of throwing off someone's aim. The Magrider does this better but that's what makes it tick.
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