Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes

Folks as a reminder out forum guidelines require feedback to be specific and constructive. Some posts have been moderated in an effort to keep discussion on track. Things we are removing:

• Memes/Gifs and no statement. Yes we know sometimes a picture says 1000 words but memes can't go in reports.
• Stat comparison. Who has the right to make comments does nothing but inflate the thread. Everyone's opinion matters regardless of experience so let's just debate validity without getting personal.
• Off Topic. Yes these changes impact a ton of things but let's keep it focused on the specific changes outlined and your thoughts on them.

Once again these are proposed changes which will be rolled out in stages. Thanks in advance for your help and we really appreciateeveryone taking the time to provide their thoughts.

Oh Vanu! The walls of text! The flying spittle! The poor grammar!



This is going to sound strange because of my name, (It's entirely unrelated I swear!) but I cannot fly... And I still have no idea why people would up and quit the game over liberators.

I mean, yes I get farmed by them... but I also farmed by tanks, MAXes and even plain old infantry.

Yes, a liberator is dangerous when the fight is small... but so is a 2/2 MBT, or an HE lightning, or a supper skilled cloaker/LA.

Sorry but ESF rocket pods already need two full clips to take down a tank from the front or sides or top. It takes around 4-5 seconds to unload a clip, and pods travel slowly so you will almost never hit with your entire clip. In addition, to get close enough to MAYBE get a full clip hit, you need to get in kill range of Skyguards, in addition, the closer you are, the easier for an enemy tanker to get a lucky/skilled AP shot on you.

Beta Lolpods were rightfully nerfed countless patches ago and no one has never complained about them. And even then, particularily in the case of Scyhe Photon Pods (which fire two rockets at a time with half the fire rate, making them less "spammable" than other pods), rocket pods are not that good at anti-infantry, unless you get very close hits, in which case you can just take Coyotes or even try your luck with the default nosegun. Pod splash damage is huge but outside the 0,35m mark it does little damage.

Why should rocket pods be anti-infantry? I do understand that Hornets are supposed to be anti-vehicle, but aren't there AI noseguns for AI already? Why need a secondary AI weapon? It makes AI nosegun + rocket pods a redundant choice - currently, with such a loadout, you are basically dead if you encounter any half-decent fighter pilot, but at least you can attack both infantry and vehicles.

Similarily, if rocket pods were mainly, AI, you'd have the option to do AI with either your primary or your secondary, which means that if you want to do AI, you now can choose whether you want to have your primary or secondary slot free for a different weapon. I'd much rather see AI as something that requires you to give up a specific weapon slot (primary), seeing as ESFs have a very easy time hunting infantry due to their high agility and ability to see and go everywhere they please.

RadarX, that is where I'm still confused: "proposed changes".. means that they are up for discussion and input, it's just a proposal, nothing is decided etc.. ... however, you then finish with "..will be rolled out in stages.." as if they are a done deal.

I believe you have been following this thread and saw that an overwhelming number of players are appalled at the idea of less velocity, more drop and shorter ranges for tank shells.... ?
The problem for me is that I have no way to know if you (SOE) are taking any of our input into consideration, then you post that they WILL BE ROLLED OUT.. and then I feel as if I have to post again and again, since there does not appear to be anyone listening on SOE's side.

If you could tell us in here why the proposed changes even became an idea.. maybe we could try to understand why you want to nerf tanks, and then we could maybe offer more constructive input.
But overall, thanks for a great game.

I hope they bust out the lib changes first, and soon: I think people are spamming them in droves to get their fix in / auraxiums before the nerf. It's getting out of hand

Liberator's Tank Buster is probably the most overpowered weapon in the game. I'm surprised it's lasted this long in its current state. The rate in which it kills tanks is shocking.

As a main TR Gamer, i see some Problem with the Tanks.

1. Tanks in Closer Combat = Buff for the Vaynguard
2. Giving them slower bullets = Helping Magrider to Dodge bullets by straving
3. Making Firing on the drive easyer --> I REALL LIKE THIS ONE!!!, so leave it up!! But as a TR Gamer my Deployed Prowler wont move very fast...... while the Enemys can now retrat even Faster...

So, i like the Idea of more "drive by Tank action" but keep an Eye on the Prowler, because the deploy mode does not featuring fast moving Action. While i can see the Vulcan getting more Interesting on this Setup.....

On Liberators: They are a Teamplay Vehicle, and if i go with my Outfit with 3 - 10 Mosquitos on Air Patrol they have like 2 Seconds to live, because they are a very easy Target on long ranges.
In small Fights, they Dominate, they can do really nice Hit and Run attacks and even with 2 AA Maxes you probably wont get them down. (If skilled)

So i see both Sides. Sometimes it sux, to get stucked by one stubid Lib, because you have no skilled Pilot to get rid of it.
Or as a Liberator, where you get engaged from 2 - 3 Skilled Pilots and Game over.
Plz. work fast on the Changes, i am afraid some of my skilled Lib Pilots will leave PS2. (Because they only fly lib, and only certet lib....)

EDIT: BTW the other Lib weapons are NOT that bad, so you should not be to happy about the nerf, ^^ The Pilots probably just switch the play style and suck as always ;-), not everything that kills you is OP

Radar/Kevmo. By all means prove you are actually listening to constructive feedback. You have almost unanimous condemnation for the Tank velocity changes and yet you are acting like it's still a go.

The tank game play is already in shambles due to the insane abundance of infantry AV. Tanks already have lifespans in the tens of seconds in any major fight. Don't make it worse by forcing them closer unless you plan on nerfing AV or buffing armor.

Please prove you are actually listening by actually reconsidering.

Implementation suggestion for the changes:

1. Due to the breadth of the changes, test server would probably not be representative of actual impacts
2. With the release of changes, let the community know you'll collect data and tweak as necessary
3. No more than 2 weeks from release of changes, analyze data and tweak balance as data warrants

What people are afraid of is extensive changes will negatively impact their play too much, and take months to rebalance. This would defuse much of that fear.

Lib changes suggestion to balance liberators, tanks, and ESFs.

1. Velocity nerf of liberator weapons is probably to make ESFs stronger against them (won't affect hitting ground armor much)
2. Armor nerf of liberators is to make low flying more punishing (low tankbuster runs)
3. Velocity nerf of tanks is probably to make hitting distant flying units harder (won't affect ttk versus armor infantry much at kill ranges, hitting at range will be harder but you don't get kills at that range anyways)
4. Tank buster nerf to reduce TTK against tanks from 4 sec to probably 7 seconds from 1 run (TB+dalton and missing some shots from dodging)
5. Ammo reserve and splash nerf to decrease farming and increase specialization

Suggestion:
Offensive changes for libs are enough, since it will be weaker offensively against infantry, armor, and ESFs. Do not nerf lib armor. Too little armor means too much risk in a TB+dalton run if you failed to spot a tank. Unless we want liberators to be only used where there is no flak around i.e. farming a really small fights with their belly gun, a low flying lib is necessary to get into 24-48 fights. If their survivability is still an issue after all these changes, decrease their resistance against ESF noseguns by 5% rather than against ground weapons. This is because libs are AG and ESFs are AA.

It will be a huge A2G nerf too, around 40% longer hangtime for Dalton shells coupled with giving tanks way higher mobility will be a massive overall nerf.

Radar....... please post up any progress/updates on the discussions/nerfs as they continue etc.

you know I really should do a full review on these proposed patchnotes in a post..... on this thread...soon.

I have several unanswered questions.

1.) What is inside the stages you want release this stuff?
2.) How is the Skyguard effected, since its a Tank weapon, will it be modified in any way? Will it also get stabilization?
3.) How will the Duster be changed? The biggest downside for it is currently the large CoF making it to much spray and pray wich results in to much FF.

if you've been reading the entire thread you would have heard us repeat that the TB is not the most overpowered weapon in the game. it's great at one specific thing that when good pilots learn to use it is fantastic. Much like the Gauss Saw or pump action shotguns, they're "OP" until YOU try to use it and fail (this includes me, I suck at both of those but are killed by them all the time).

the Tankbuster is for busting tanks. it's a close range weapon and takes about 2 clips to kill tank, it has lots of drop, slow velocity with a weird lead and offset on the reticle. it's hard to be good at it. plus there's usually the TB, then the gunner Daltons you, so, just like if you were attacked on the ground by two heavies, two people took you out - 2 vs 1, there's nothing OP about it.

my main question to all this is that if it's so OP, too easy and unfair, why doesn't everybody fly and farm everybody else? I mean why wouldn't you kill tanks with it, or other LIbs - oh yeah, because it's hard and not easy and until you know what you're doing with the Lib and the TB you die immediately.

The harasser was nerfed in the same way, it was just too much fun and good at everything but what I don't understand is that if it was so good WHY DIDN'T EVERYBODY USE IT? right, because if you didn't know how to drive and communicate with your gunner and you would die to tanks, terrain and everything else right out of the warpgate. so the Lib and the old Harasser are not overpowered, you're just not good enough yet to counter them yet (no offense).

I guess I can see this happening if you are playing as a high-altitude bomber. The high-kill per minute players usually look for TB+dalton kills and for ranges of <100 meters you won't miss much. Not saying this isn't a nerf against ground armor, but it's a nerf against an already ineffective and rarely used playing style.

I thought about this topic alot and Miller knows! Yes I am flying the LIB:

- TB hard to use and I would let it be as it is to please certain playstyles
- Remove the recent armour buffs and I do think that will help to get the TB users in LINE by its own (Two shells and down with the lib)
- The shredder on the other hand needs an AA nerf hard and a AI nerf as well
- Look at the skyguard and give it some love (lock down maybe?!)
- Sound of a lib is totaly broken

Ok here I do possible get the anger of the community

- Make the Lock ons detect the lib a little bit further like 50 meter just for the libs

It's gay as **** because it kills you too quickly to do anything about. There's a reason people ***** about the Shotgun and C4, even though they're niche weapons. When you die before you have a chance to fight back, it's galling.

Takes one from the rear. It'll take two to the top, but if the Lib is attacking your top armor in a tank there's not much you can do except run and hope you find a place to hide. More than likely when you run you open yourself up for hits to the rear.

Because shooting things on the ground is like playing against bots. It's fun at first because you can get away with doing ******** ****, but after a while it gets boring and repetitive.
Good performance in a Lib doesn't carry an inherent risk considering the only thing that can keep up with you is yourself, or an ESF. What the Lib has to deal with, everyone else has to deal with and then some.

Because Harasserside 2 would be a **** game and would defeat the purpose of a Combined Arms game if the best counter to something was itself.

which is ironically exactly how liberators are right now.

Everything in this game kills you too quickly, why is this different? A MBT will take out a Lightning this fast, two rocket launchers, a Max with dual AV cannons, etc. It sounds like you don't like it because you don't fly. as Scr1nRusher quoted above, Libs take out other Libs faster than anything and there's no chance of fighting back. but again, I don't see your point. if I'm any old infantry and an infiltrator sneaks up on me - I do not have the ability to fight back, I'm not super ******** about that either. I respawn and hunt him down like a dawg, that's the game!

Playing against bots? I don't know where you play but when I'm in a LIb or any other aircraft everything and their mommies are trying to bring us down. sometimes we're not getting many kills but farming damage repair certs hiding behind hills from so much AA flak.

Harasserside... nope, the best thing to counter Harassers were Libs, MBTs or pretty much anything with equal numbers. this game (like all relatively balanced games) is rock-paper-scissors, you can't complain about losing if you only like playing the rock. And in this case you should have no expectation of winning with a 1 person tank vs. 3 in a Lib, just like you'd be outgunned as a 1 man MBT vs. a 2 man MBT.

I don't know if this is adding to the constructive feedback other than to add, balance depends on your perspective.
and, yes, make the Lib louder / more distinct, no one likes being snuck up on.

I welcome the Rocket pod nerf against vehicles.

Why?


Because rocket pods are good vs all rather then be really good vs 1 thing primarily.

Rocket pods = Good vs infantry clusters, Decent vs vehicles.

Hornets = Good vs vehicles, Meh against infantry.


Thats how it should work!.


Also this will allow the Hornets to shine(if you also buff them!!!)