Top 5 Vanguard Myths... with Numbers!

what's crazy is that you're using the arrow keys to move around..... that ****'s cray!

It may not appear to be much, but this elevation difference IS a big deal for Mag drivers. Having a convenient incline nearby to help with angles is very rare. You basically have to be next to something suitable (not every rock will do) and then you only get time for one shot if the ESF is running hornets AND flys low enough. Once you get an angle you then have to account for the amount of incline you are on (hard to tell as there are no visual cues) and the effect gravity will have on your shot. Shooting stuff from flat ground is actually easier as you know in advance where your shot will go.

First off, it's Calisai, not me who made the picture(s, there's also some from the perspective of the Prowler and Vanguard).
Second, left and right arrow, or rather the function on them is great in the magrider (got it bound on the mouse myself) as it can be used to rotate without having to move the mouse itself half a meter across the desk.

You have a point with RLs and turrets, but not really Skyguards, I've played a lot of Skyguard and you don't just pull one immeditately kill 5 aircraft then dump it after 2 mins.


The other issue you are completely ignoring with both RL and Skyguards is also how much they work as a deterent for driving things off (for every kill you get with an AA RL or Skyguard or Turret you'll drive off an aircraft or a multitude of aircraft 5, 10 or even 20 times), where as Vans (and all MBTs) get kills, but don't function remotely as well in area denial.

More to the threads point if you suggest Van's are AA then you suggest Prowlers and Mags are too.

If you're looking at total kill in the last few months:

ESF-wise Van > Prowler
Valkyrie-wise Prowler = Van
Lib-wise Van =/> Prowler
Galaxy-wise Prowler > Van

All of the % differences are less than 1% of total kills and most much less.

The Phoenix is only a legitimate threat to pilots a Decimator would be a legitimate threat too as well.

Maybe, of course, at the same time they'd have to buff the Van's DPS so it was equally deadly to Galaxies.

If you look at these % numbers as just numbers, they indeed do not seem to convey notable value. What is 1%? Or 2-3%? These are tiny % in the context of most things in life.

Likewise, many of the entries on the "Monthly Vehicle Deaths" table or "Monthly Weapons Stats" table fall into the category of small number %s.

It's only when we look at them (1) with a specific frame of reference and (2) adjusting them for only-non-collision-caused-deaths, that they start to convey the bigger picture.

I was trying to draw focus to the "Monthly Vehicle Deaths" in the segment you quoted. Sorry I did not list the source in that post. I will list it now:

source: http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthly-vehicle-deaths/ (sort by "ESF: All BR", "ESF: Q4 Scythe", "ESF: Q4 Mosquito")

When we look at "Monthly Weapon Stats" table (http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthlystats/), we are looking at the rough Kill Diet of specific Units. Where they tend to be getting their kills/destroys, their usage rates, etc..

When we look at "Monthly Vehicle Deaths" table (http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthly-vehicle-deaths/), we are looking at breakdowns of what is Eating Them. This table includes all deaths, but it can be adjusted to include only-non-collision-caused-deaths by removing "Suicide", "Vehicle Collision" and "Vehicle Collision" (each entry divided by "100% - % for Suicide - % for Vehicle Collision - % for Vehicle Collision").

I'll run some numbers off the current "Monthly Vehicle Deaths" table (these won't be the same one I listed before, since they change over time, but they're pretty close to the numbers I worked off last time).

In Q4 Scythe (the one with the biggest death-to-Titan-150-AP%, I'll use it just to try and get the biggest Titan-150 AP impact number), it shows a Death Rate to Titan-150 AP at 1.46%. Adjusting for only-non-collision-caused-deaths, this number rises to 2.8%. Of course we are talking an Empire Specific Weapon, which is not in use by TR enemies, so it helps to change the analysis to only-non-collision-NC-caused-deaths for Q4 Scythes. We get this by pulling out all the TR death causes, and then dividing the "Others" in half (that half thing is crude, but I don't have the breakdown to do better). Giving us Titan-150 AP at 5.5% for only-non-collision-NC-caused-deaths for Q4 Scythes.

At 5.5% for only-non-collision-NC-caused-deaths, we're looking at Q4 Scythes getting killed by Titan-150 AP roughly 1.1 times in every 20 times they die in a Scythe to NC in a non-Collision Death.

Expanding this scope for all top only-human-NC-caused-deaths for Q4 Scythe, we get:
M20 Mustang.....................................4 in every 20
Vortek Rotary.....................................2 in every 20
NC Burser MAX (left + right)................1.3 in every 20
NC Skyguard.....................................1.1 in every 20
Titan-150 AP......................................1.1 in every 20
NC AA Base Turret.............................0.9 in every 20
Hawk GD-68.......................................0.9 in every 20
NC C150 Dalton..................................0.7 in every 20
M30 Mustang AH................................0.7 in every 20
NC Annihilator.....................................0.6 in every 20

For reference/comparison, let's run the same numbers for Q4 Magrider. All top only-non-collision-NC-caused-deaths for Q4 Magrider, we get:
Titan-150 AP........................................3.3 in every 20
NC Tank Mine......................................2.2 in every 20
NC C-4................................................1.8 in every 20
Enforcer ML85......................................1 in every 20
NC L100 Python AP..............................0.9 in every 20
NC MANA Anti-Vehicle Turret.................0.8 in every 20
NC C150 Dalton....................................0.8 in every 20
NC E540 Halberd-MBT...........................0.7 in every 20
Shrike..................................................0.7 in every 20

How lethal is NC MANA Anti-Vehicle Turret, NC C150 Dalton, or NC L100 Python AP to a Q4 Magrider? How much much do those units impact Q4 Magrider on the VS/NC Battlefield? On a pure death level, less than the Titan-150 AP impacts the Q4 Scythe.

And that isn't adjusting for other significant factors:
1) any Q4 Scythe equipping Fuel Tank, A2AM, or Coyote and (not using LPPA) is not going to be doing G2A, and their deaths to Titan-150 AP are gonna be much lower. Conversely, for Q4 Scythes running G2A Loadouts and doing G2A, the Death Rate to Titan-150 AP is going to be higher than 1.1 in every 20.
2) Titan-150 AP become much more lethal to Scythes when there are more of Vanguards around, the Vanguards are spread out, they are in terrain with greater line-of-sight to target ESF, and/or the Vanguards are being more mobile (harder for Scythe to keep id and bearing on their location and threat vector). Death Rate to Titan-150 AP will rise or fall relative to those variables.

On a side note, Titan-150 AP do not do any non-lethal Kill Assist Damage. So while most other Weapons have some of their lethality downplayed by not being in a Kill Stat, Titan-150 AP would not. So that is one argument that Titan-150 AP overall impact on the battlefield is overstated by the numbers.

Well, they overlap. Both OHK, are HA Rockets, and are very dangerous to Mosquitoes/Scythes who getting in close range G2A or who are moving too little at low-mid range. And yes, both are big threats in those situations.

Decimator has a faster projectile velocity (60 vs. 42), but Phoenix can adjust to still have a chance to hit targets that shift.

Well, doing so or not really depends on the Gal experience. Is it significantly easier for a VS Gal vs. Titan-150 AP than P2-120 AP? How about vs. NC MBT Primary Weapons as a group than TR MBT Primary Weapons as a group? How about vs. NC than vs. TR?

VS Q4 Gal only-non-collision-caused-deaths to MBT Primary Weapons
====================================================
P2-120 AP......................................4.08
Titan-150 AP...................................2.69

VS Q4 Gal only-non-collision-caused-deaths to: TR vs. NC
==========================================
TR...................................................30.4
NC...................................................23
Unspecified......................................46.5

source: http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthly-vehicle-deaths/ ("Galaxy: Q4 BR VS", then run numbers subtracting out Vehicle Suicide, Vehicle Collision, and Friendly Collision)

Seems like there might be an issue there. Is VS just attacking TR a lot more than NC? Or is TR/P2-120 AP putting up better AA numbers vs. Gals? Is there some major NC firepower buried in that Unspecified number?

I don't play with the Gal at all, as pilot, gunner, or passenger. So it's not something I can really put much awareness into. Any Gal pilots/gunners/passengers want to chime in?

I noticed running some of these numbers, that the "threat from each of the 2 opposing Factions individually" seem pretty skewed
for some of the different Vehicles. Not sure if it's that Factions are not battling both opponents the same amount (I've seen this), if some Factons are outperforming, or what.

VS Q4 Scythe only-non-collision-caused-deaths to: TR vs. NC
==========================================
TR...................................................31.9
NC...................................................34
Unspecified.......................................17

VS Q4 Magrider only-non-collision-caused-deaths to: TR vs. NC
==========================================
TR...................................................38.8
NC...................................................26.4
Unspecified.......................................17.4

VS Q4 Gal only-non-collision-caused-deaths to: TR vs. NC
==========================================
TR....................................................30.4
NC....................................................23
Unspecified........................................46.5

Indeed, and the bigger picture shows, that Van's do better at ESFs, the same at Valks, worse at things like Galaxies and overall are slightly better than Prowlers and Mags at getting "Air" kills, whilst not being "AA" as such at all.

Whilst generally not doing as well with HE or HEAT or indeed even AP in an AI or AV sense.

Hitting a moving ESF is pure luck with a Phoenix, the speed and turning circle aren't great enough to accurately adjust.

Moreover there's an issue with the "ghost-miss" with Phoenixes where you can look like you've hit, but it just flies straight through, this seem to be most prevelent with targets that move just before impact, so in the context of relatively stationary ESFs a bit of vertical thrust when they hear one will likely be enough to either move it out of the turning circle of the Phoenix or cause a "ghost-miss".

No one is regularly getting hit by Phoenixes that isn't already getting hit by plain old dumbfires too.

If total monthly kills shows that Van AP is more deadly to ESFs, then it shows just as clearly that Prowler AP is more deadly to Galaxies (and probably for a similarly understandable reasons - Anchor has more viablity against Gals and their size and speed mean the landing of a double-shot and therefore much higher DPS is more likely).

Works for me.

I don't agree. AA, like AV, isn't solely about perforamance vs. all units in that group. It's also about performance against specific units in that group.

Rocket Pod/Default Nosegun ESFs have good AV vs. non-Skyguard Tanks, pretty good AV vs. Harassers, weak AV vs. Sunderers, and poor AV vs. Skyguards. That doesn't make them not AV, they are AV, just that they specialize in the type of AV they are.

What are you talking about here?

Depends on how much the ESF is moving. I'm just talking small incremental position changes while they are hovering close.

Phoenix doesn't even OHK, such that a full Health ESF with charged Fire Suppresion (by far the most popular Utility Slot) can survive. This severely limits the lethality of the Phoenix. I would rate the Phoenix as better AA vs. ESFs than the Lancer, but that's not saying much. I am not calling Phoenix good ESF AA, I would call it usable ESF AA in infrequent niche situations.

I can't hear a Phoenix while I'm in my ESF. I can't hear almost anything. ESFs are absurdly loud to their pilots (inlcuding loud fake communications bursts), and I don't play with Headphones. The only things I can hear well when in an ESF are other ESFs, Valk, Lockon warnings, certain Vehicle Weapons firing, certain Vehicle Projectiles passing (Dalton), and impacts hitting the ESF.

I know ESF players who use headphones can hear much better. Maybe one of them can provide feedback on how much better they can hear.

I know from playing Infantry that Phoenix has a loud sound, but I can't hear it from my ESF.

Hard to say. I can personally aim a lot better at Air with Phoenix than with Dumbfires. But I'm bad at aiming non-Striker Dumbfires. I am sure some people can aim great with Dumbfires. I do agree that Phoenix do not kill many ESFs.

I agree that the numbers seem to suggest that. But I'd like a Gal player to verify. I don't play Gal, I do play ESF (lots of hours in all of them). So I can confirm the Vanguard vs. ESF thing, but I can't apply that same personal experience to the Gal numbers.

As a Designer, I like to get some feedback from players with experience in addition to numbers. You can't always trust either one , but in aggregate it helps flesh out a broader perspective to try to work from.

AA isn't remotely just about killing however, most of the effect of Skyguards, AA Lock-ons and AA MAXs is in area denial and driving Air off, rather than pure killing. All AA is rather weak as actual Air killers, purposely so as Air is supposed to be the counter to Air, AA is only area denial.

Vans (or Prowlers and Mags) don't work very well as AA in that context, whilst you might well be able to get a slow moving ESF in a Van or a slow moving Gal in a Prowler, neither will work like Skyguards, AA lock-ons or AA MAXs for effective area denial.


There's no real area denial comparrison for AV or AI as both are desinged to kill not chase off targets.

Vanguard perfomance. With HEAT and HE is generally worse peforming than either the Prowler or Mag for various reasons (strictly Air-wise it might still be better, but the numbers are likely to be so low as to be irrelevent).

I fire a lot of Phoenixes at ESFs, and I'm suprised when they hit (they are much better at Libs or Gals though) as it is (IMO) an order of magnitude harder to hit even a very slow flying ESF with one than say a sprinting infantryman, I'd do better with a dumbfire in almost all circumstances, just by the time I'd swapped the firing chance would likely be gone.

Although it probably would be better than the Lancer kill-wise, not so sure about general AA-wise.

Some people seem to have ESP (now I dunno whether that is as you say good headphones and clever sound settings or actual ESP), as they really know when to move even when they almost certainly cannot see it coming.

It's not the aiming so much are the last second movement and the "ghost-hits" where the Phoenix flies right through the model, ZOE MAXs used to be a comeplete PITA for this, they'd just ADADADAD and you're Pheonix would fly straight through them. For some reason it seems like something about the Phoenix and that sort of sharpe movement seems to break client-side.

I'd be pretty sure that the numbers show Anchored AP Prowlers licking their lips.

That's a very good point. There is definitely different kinds of AA Roleplayers, with different affects. Vanguard is usually poor Deterrent AA (keep sky clear of Air), except for those infrequent cases where Vanguards can spread out and cover each others deadzones. Also, Vanguards mixed in with other AA can be a death trap scenario for ESFs, where the ESF can't engage and knock out the Vanguard because of the Deterent AA (plus TTK delay of the Vanguard Shields), and the Vanguard is a lingering OHK threat.

Yeah, AV/AI doesn't seem to have the same gameplay. At least not at that level of interplay.

Flare and AI Mana Turret can be similar for AI. Not getting lots of kills, but deterring people from certain actions or positions. MAX can also keep people from moving in on an area. Some of the weak multi-shot range Weapons of Infils can work to keep areas clear, I've used the Semi Auto Sniper Rifle (or even a Bolt Action Sniper Rifle) for this many times to keep the enemy from setting up a defense on a Tower face, locking down an exposed approach, etc. Not getting a lot of kills, but keeping Infantry from just camping there or keeping them locked down behind cover.

For AV, Striker can be similar vs. Harasser in CQC. Sometimes AV Base Turret can work as an area clearer. Likewise, Lockons and AV Mana Turret can keep vehicles clear of an area or locked behind cover.

Experienced players don't really use HEAT or HE.

BR100 Average Playtime: MBT Primary Weapons
=====================================
P2-120 AP....................120.5
Supernova FPC.............117.4
Titan-150 AP.................108.2
P2-120 HEAT................22.4
P2-120 HE....................21.2
Supernova PC...............18.8
Supernova VPC.............18.4
Titan-150 HEAT..............14.5
Titan-150 HE.................12.9

BR100 Average Playtime: MBT Primary Weapons (AP vs. HEAT + HE)
===================================================
AP..................................346
HEAT + HE.....................108

I can accept that the NC versions are worse, but HEAT and HE are not in a good place overall. (or AP is in too good of a place)

Gotcha.

Lancer is probably usable against non-ESFs. Bigger, slower targets.

As an ESF pilot I can often react to unseen threats. It's a combo of Mini-Map (non-Stealth Vehicle or someone Q-Spots it) and Sound (though as I said, I can only catch certain sounds reliably). Another thing is the firing sound of some Weapons before they hit me, things like Tankbuster: Libs are much more lethal and inescapable when they just ram me cause I rarely hear them coming (or catch them on the Mini-Map). And factor in just how fast an ESF can start evasion, and how effective that evasion is.

Well, SOE/DBG does have a lot of funky physics and career bugs.

Yeah, it looks that way for sure. I'm pretty comfortable just taking it as the numbers present.

Where is that disproven myth that the vanguard is EASY MODE.

HE is relatively specalised and I suspect by the time any regular users gets to BR100 they'd have auxed it and be done.
HEAT is a bit less so and you can see from the useage and kills that where it is more effective (Prowler) it is used more.


Weapon......... BR..... kills. Uni KPU time KPH
P2-120 AP....... All BRs 10349 1052 9.77 432.6 23.78
Titan-150 AP ... All BRs 8433 966 8.56 436.7 19.2
P2-120 HEAT... All BRs 7018 1144 6.1 325.5 21.31
Supernova FPC All BRs 6684 777 8.48 356.4 18.81
Titan-150 HEAT All BRs 4026 875 4.54 230.5 17.34
Supernova PC.. All BRs 3799 781 4.82 224.5 16.83
P2-120 HE....... All BRs 2573 175 14.49 55.7 45.63
Supernova VPC All BRs 2100 146 14.15 48.2 43.01
Titan-150 HE.... All BRs 1218 106 11.23 32.4 36.93

AP is likely the default for BR100s though, because if you've Auxed the rest it carries the most advantages with the least disadvantages for general use.

The doesn't negate factional weakness (or indeed strenght) of HE or HEAT however.








It is also interesting when you look at Lightnings that the TR don't use HE remotely as much (and to some degree HEAT):


Weapon......... BR..... kills. Uni KPU time KPH
NC C75 Viper..... All BRs 8550 1648 5.12 357 23.97
TR C75 Viper..... All BRs 8225 1577 5.17 339.1 24.18
VS C75 Viper..... All BRs 7447 1494 4.93 318.6 23.28
VS L100 Python HE All BRs 3576 278 12.75 76.6 46.4
NC L100 Python HE All BRs 3572 290 12.27 76.4 46.82
VS L100 Python AP All BRs 3421 596 5.67 152.2 22.57
NC L100 Python AP All BRs 3337 590 5.63 150.1 22.28
TR L100 Python AP All BRs 3226 569 5.63 144.5 22.4
TR L100 Python HE All BRs 2979 243 12.13 59.8 49.81
VS L100 Python HEAT All BRs 2727 431 6.25 107 25.66
NC L100 Python HEAT All BRs 2724 420 6.47 106.4 25.6
TR L100 Python HEAT All BRs 2330 388 5.96 90.6 25.68

Personally I don't play the Vanguard even though it is fully certed, because the Lightning gives as much bang for the buck, is cheaper and survives much longer.

Also, I simply don't care to bother with these anymore...

Neither HE nor HEAT are used by BR100's on any MBT. HEAT is used by lower level BR's because it is FREE.

I've said it before, HEAT should be changed to have AP stats, HE should be changed to have HEAT stats, and AP should be adjusted to be better AV and worse AI. As it is now, AP is the dominant choice for general use, and it should not be.

Are you asking them to nerf the Prowler HE and HEAT? BR100s barely even use them. If AP was FREE, almost nobody would use HEAT.

Low BR's use the C75 Viper cause it's the FREE one. BR100's use the AP the most.

They are used (as the time numbers show), just not as much, but as I said by the time you get to BR100 and are a regular tanker you'll have Auxed HE long ago, and likely will use AP generally as it is a better general choice (as it is far better at AV and yet can still be used for AI with a vaguely decent aim - HE on the other hand is a horrible option to bring to an AV fight).


Weapon Time
Titan-150 AP 429.8
P2-120 AP 429
Supernova FPC 354.2
P2-120 HEAT 323.1
Titan-150 HEAT 226
Supernova PC 223.9
P2-120 HE 55.8
Supernova VPC 48.6
Titan-150 HE 31.9

HEAT is well used on the Prowler already (compared to Mag and Van), this is likely because the double-shot & DPS offset a lot of the downsides to HEAT that the Van and Mag face.

Van HE is very under-used conversly.

I don't think you can discount all non-BR100 use of a weapon.

Q4 or BR100 performance is the best to determine balance generally, but equally Q4 or BR100 useage can have inherent biases (as mentioned above).

As I've said no BR100 experienced tanker is going to be using HE generally, but equally they may well pull it specifically and when they do it will under or overperform more or less as a BR 1 or BR99 using it would.

Conversely if it is overperforming for a non-BR100 it is still overperforming.

I was talking about HE not the Viper.

The Viper (even after the nerf) is good at AI and AV and is the default, so is bound to be popular, as I said the interesting thing when you look at Lightnings that the TR don't use HE remotely as much (and to some degree HEAT).