Top 5 Vanguard Myths... with Numbers!

I think the HA Heavy Weapons would be one example where you can't directly compare the kills, because the weapons serve different purposes. The Lasher for example, has an unmeasureable affect on the battlefield separate from the kills it gets in it's suppressive ability (also hard to reward the user for this). In this situation I can see what the stat deniers are saying. However, I don't see how this applies to the MBTs, because it's not like the Vanguard has any suppressive effect on the battlefield that can't be measured.

True, but consider then that the Magrider has a better time traversing (fleeing) and the prowler gives players an incentive to stay in a zerg with anchor, the Van still manages to pull ahead.

Difference is that this comment that I had in mind wasn't from Higgles but Kevmo.
Kevmo's comment is also a lot more recent compared to the thing Higgles said.

See my comment to Kriegson. In spite of those the vanguard lives significantly longer.
There's also an about equally strong incentive for a magrider to wait around for a gunner as it is for the Vanguard.

Yea, I think when I did the numbers the Vanguard on average lived the longest, closely followed by the Magrider and the Prowler was trailing far behind.

For AP cannon only...
Prowler AP
Total Time Used: 5,996 days
Average DPU: 87
Number of Users: 4,892
Average Lifespan: 33.8 minutes

Magrider AP
Total Time Used: 5,292 days
Average DPU: 100
Number of Users: 3,678
Average Lifespan: 34.5 minutes

Vanguard AP
Total Time Used: 6,907 days
Average DPU: 91
Number of Users: 4,877
Average Lifespan: 37.3 minutes

Still though survivability in our current resource rich environment is a bit useless, as most competent tankers can survive long enough to get another tank without breaking the bank.

The Maggie also has more incentive to chase and flank, as well, due to that passive defense.

And Prowler drivers often anchor in really, really stupid spots. I don't know how many times I've been in a squad where we'd just focus-fire on anchored prowlers that were right out in the open.

The magrider has incentives towards paranoia if anything.

About the prowler... I agree. Anchor teaches people to be braindead, although some do manage to get good in spite of it. Yes, in spite of it.

I think it is so obvious, the vanguard is shaped like a foot with a turret at the ankle. It has horrible acceleration so if you overextend in a chaotic situation you are a beached whale in agility terms. Not only did you overextend, your vehicle shape is specialized in overextending putting 70/60% of its body out there before you can shoot.
Imagine the anxiety one gets when fighting on a slight incline or slope in a vanguard with its traction, I honestly don't do it anymore, if I am anywhere near a fight with uneven terrain I just want to get out and push the thing.
If the traction would be buffed I could handle it, but the times I've sat on a mountain with 70/80% of my vehicle on a flat surface just to slide or tumble down for trying to get a shot over/past my ridiculous long front end is a little harsh, but most commonly small hills, turns, anything is super detrimental because a vanguard has not one of these attributes of acceleration, traction, or of turning speed, so the only way to optimize your driving style is to drive super predictably over a flat surface "always". Even if it is predictable, it isn't worth not doing so, because you can't back out of a fight on a slope.
I'm not even going to say OP because although it feels that way, I dunno. But I see mag-riders outmaneuver harassers mobility-wise 24/7 as the heaviest faction tank, and as Infantry the highest mountain peak isn't a refuge against them.
All together dealing with and dodging magriders becomes the focal point of my play-style when I face off vs Vanu, whom roam like Gods if a decent tanker unless they get ambushed by a greater number of people/ nanite-value in vehicles, because they will give you one shot int he rear and fly off behind the hillside.
So far as I've played video-games (too long) a class of vehicle or character that can decide the terms of engagement and has reliable ways to disengage, has ALWAYS been the dominate cog in the machine.

The prowler gets a lot out of their double fire system, which. 1.Doubles infantry kill potential. 2. Prevents overkill, increasing applied dps. 3. I sigh when I see how oblivious people are about shot leading, but leading your shots, ergo firing one shot, watching it land and use the information to fire a follow up. 4. It doesn't have maggy speed, but it charges like a little bull and has a good "snappy" response and return speed, you can still play peekaboo with cover.
That said the prowler while I play mostly NC, is not my ohh **** moment in the game. Those are large numbers of air vehicles, or magriders, although with the recent "gatekeeper" top gun addition this might change, especially for maggy pilots I assume these new prowlers are nightmares as they can chase some, and out-damage at range quite comfortably.

I think that as a vanguard driver I play fundamentally different because I have no mobility. Before I peek my head around a corner I essentially decide if I will potentially die or not most of the time, which the other two MBT seem to have less of an issue with if they decide to back and repair behind a hill or rock.
I shine with a vanguard when I am supported by others because I can't chase without over-committing, and my rate of fire is very low, so I am much more dependent on the zerg of units to play peekaboo with my only saving grace in this regard being the front loading nature of the main cannon, allowing me to compete while using cover, and the grace of people focusing fire in vehicle zergs.
The vanguard is aptly named in this sense.

Vanguards are scary, I tend to withdraw when I see a 2/2 Vanny. Unless I'm behind them.

Good job.

Now they're in an even worse place. Maybe they'll be better someday and I'll start support DGC again.

lolololololol, I know they won't.

Huh... wouldn't have thunk it, but I guess it's time to revisit these old myths?

One problem is that due to the collapse of the DA Stats site which no longer works, accessing some of the old data (like accuracy rates or KDR) is not possible unless I can figure out an alternative site.

Anyhow...

Myth #1: Vanguards are the Best Tank

Back in April 2014 the Vanguard has the lowest cumulative KPH of all the tanks, meaning that it was the worst for anti-infantry duties. With the addition of new anti-vehicle options, how does it look now?

Prowler HE: 45
Prowler HEAT: 22
Prowler AP: 25
Prowler AI Secondary: 61
Prowler LR AV Secondary: 26
Prowler SR AV Secondary: 17
Total Prowler KPH: 196

Vanguard HE: 38
Vanguard HEAT: 18
Vanguard AP: 20
Vanguard AI Secondary: 68
Vanguard LR AV Secondary: 22
Vanguard SR AV Secondary: 18
Total Vanguard KPH: 184

Magrider HE: 45
Magrider HEAT: 17
Magrider AP: 19
Magrider AI Secondary: 39
Magrider LR AV Secondary: 21
Magrider SR AV Secondary: 21
Total Magrider KPH: 162

The formula's changed a bit, dropping out the Halberd in favour of the new ESAV weapons. The biggest shift is that the Magrider has dropped to last place, and this is very clearly due to the PPA nerf. So while the Vanguard has the least lethal primary weapons, the VS nerf to the PPA dropped it below the Vanguard.

Myth #2: So What if Vanguards Suck at Killing Infantry, Everyone Knows that They're AV Tanks

Last time in 2014 the Magrider was the best anti-vehicle tank, and the Vanguard was tied with the Prowler for last place. How do the VKPH values stack up now?


Vanguard HE: 4
Vanguard HEAT: 6
Vanguard AP: 11
Vanguard AI Secondary: 3
Vanguard LR AV Secondary: 13
Vanguard SR AV Secondary: 15
Total Vanguard VKPH: 52

Magrider HE: 5
Magrider HEAT: 5
Magrider AP: 12
Magrider AI Secondary: 1
Magrider LR AV Secondary: 13
Magrider SR AV Secondary: 15
Total Magrider VKPH: 51

Prowler HE: 4
Prowler HEAT: 6
Prowler AP: 13
Prowler AI Secondary: 2
Prowler LR AV Secondary: 15
Prowler SR AV Secondary: 10
Total Prowler VKPH: 50

This is probably the closest balanced anything is in the game (yes, including the much maligned Gatekeeper). Tanks are within a single VKPH of each other, though the Vanguard takes the lead due to the Canister's AV usage (much like the Air Hammer I'd assume) as well as the continuing poor usage of the Vulcan (due to the Prowler's tendency to lock down).

Myth #3: OK, So Maybe the Vanguard Isn't that Great at Killing Things, But the Shield Makes it Impossible to Kill

Because the DA Stats site is down, KDR calculations aren't currently possible.

Myth #4: Well Those Stats are Just There Because Vanguards Never Have Secondary Gunners

Back in 2014, the VS had the most secondary gunners (25.6%), followed by the NC (18.9%) and then the TR (8.8%). So the NC were only 6.7 points behind the VS and the TR were 10.1 points behind the NC (or 16.8 points behind the VS).

Magrider- 59.0% (374.8 secondary hours/635.7 primary hours)
Prowler- 52.3% (409.7 secondary hours/783.5 primary hours)
Vanguard- 49.0% (363.6 secondary hours/742.6 primary hours)

Now we see that the Prowler has surpassed the Vanguard in terms of 2/2 usage. Why did this happen? Well...

Gatekeeper- 182.9 hours
Aphelion- 103.2 hours
Mjolnir- 25.7 hours

The NC just really don't like their new toy, whereas the TR are happily taking to theirs. Not counting the new stuff...

Vanguard- 45.5%
Magrider- 42.7%
Prowler- 29.0%


Myth #5: You Suck and NC Tankers Suck. That's Why the Stats are So Bad.

Although the accuracy stats I used before are gone, consider cross-factional usage of the Lightning.

Lightning AP VKPH
VS- 13
NC- 13
TR- 13

Lightning HE KPH
TR- 50
NC- 47
VS- 46

Lightning Skyguard AKPH
VS- 6
NC- 6
TR- 6

So when given the exact same weapon mounted on the exact same chassis, all three factions perform about the same (TR are a little better at farming infantry).

1 Year Conclusion

Looking at how the tank game has changed in the last year or so, here are the continuing major issues of concern:

PPA Overnerf- Performing significantly below NC and TR equivalents
Vanguard HE Weakness- Continuesto be significantly less effective than TR or VS equivalents
Vulcan Weakness- Continues to be significantly less effective than NC or VS equivalents
Mjolnir Unpopularity- NC players simply do not use this weapon, probably because it is not as effective (VKPH probably comes from 1/2 seat switching).

At least now it has the velocity advantage of its fellow Titan guns.

It doesn't seem to have translated much into a practical improvement... and at any rate all HE cannons for any tank got the improvement.

The main problem with the Vanguard's HE cannon is that splash damage is identical to the Magrider and inferior to the Prowler's... while the Vanguard HE cannon takes the longest to reload. Hence poor anti-infantry capabilities, unless you can directly hit infantry targets.

And if you were going to directly, hit them, might as well go AP.

I don't think that will show much if any relative improvement over the long terms, as (IMO) velocity wasn't really the issue causing the difference.

It's honestly too soon to see much of an effect from it.
Might not change much in the end but time will tell.

Vanguard is great at killing ESFs. Especially on a busy Server.

It's the TOP non-ESF/non-Max killer of Q4 Scythes.

Scythe Q4 Vehicle Deaths
===================
1) Vehicle Suicide.................34.98
2) Vehicle Collision................7.93
3) M18 Needler......................6.15
4) M20 Mustant.....................5.30
5) Friendly Collision...............4.50
6) Vortek Rotary.....................2.69
7) M18 Rotary........................1.89
8) Titan-150 AP......................1.60

It's is a top killer of Mosquitoes.

Mosquito Q4 Vehicle Deaths
=====================
1) Vehicle Suicide..................33.82
2) Vehicle Collision..................6.90
3) Saron Laser Cannon............6.06
4) M20 Mustang......................5.96
5) Vortek Rotary......................3.01
6) Friendly Collision................2.59
7) Hailstorm Turbo Laser..........2.14
8) Nemesis VSH9...................1.75
9) VS Skyguard......................1.74
10) NC Skyguard.....................1.67
11) Titan-150 AP......................1.56

I had a good mixed-target (went after everything) Mosquito flying session earlier (Needler, Rocket Pods [mostly], Stealth, Fire Suppression, Racer, no Implant). And my Killboard deaths (while flying) show:
6 Vanguard (6x Titan-150 AP)
4 Liberator (4x Dalton)
5 Reaver (2x "Reaver", 2x Vortek Rotary, 1 M30 Mustang AH)
2 VS HA (1x Lancer, 1x Swarm)
1 Suicide
1 Scythe (1x Hailstorm Turbo Laser)
1 AA Base Turret
1 Skyguard
source: https://www.planetside2.com/players/#!/5428044677970277137/killboard

I got hit by one Vanguard player (wasteospace) from 920 meters away while I was Repairing/Rearming on the back Landing Pad of the Crown. He was on the hill just northeast of Snake Ravine.

OHK. Bang. Titan-150 AP and Dalton.

It's not much to brag about... in terms of AKPH there are many better alternatives than the Vanguard's 1.93 air kills per hour (or less than 1 every 30 minutes).

Really your stats is more a testament that other AA is performing so terribly that they are unable to kill you. What your stats say to me is that the Skyguards need a significant buff, to the point where they should be destroying you more than Daltons or Titan AP cannon.

Oh hey, someone necro'd this thread again. As we've seen, the Vanguard remains a mediocre to slightly sub-par tank, but people who don't understand how the Vanguard and its abilities work continue to whine about it.

As far as AA goes, if it really is true that even the Skyguard accounts for less than 2% of Q4 ESF deaths, then that just highlights how pathetic our AA options currently are.

Those stats don't suggest the Vanguard is OP against air, they suggest that ground AA is so woefully ineffective that the only things which actually kill Q4 pilots are other aircraft who can chase them, or sources of instant death (ramming, suicide, tank cannons). Anything else is so weak that the pilots can simply fly away any time they start to feel threatened. Even then, the Vanguard doesn't even manage to get into the 2% range.

I suppose to an airknight who thinks all ground AA weapons exist to make flying more interesting rather than to actually be a threat, any ground weapon having 2% of ESF kills is 2% too many.

And as far as your own personal anecdote where you got killed 6 times by Vanguards, that just means you were flying too low and too slow. That gun only has 20 degrees of elevation and 275 m/s of velocity. That alleged 920m shot? It took 3.35 seconds to get to you, and probably dropped more than halfway down his screen. What were you doing that gave him enough time to line up a shot like that, much less still being in the exact same place 3.35 seconds later?

After admiring your courtesy, I 'd say.
It's a good thread, making your own isn't always the way to go, I'm rather annoyed with the mjolnir. And if these top turret discrepancies are not fixed (which I am confident they will be, but how long). I foresee some hefty balance problems. More so for Vanu tankers than anyone.
What was the only choice in top guns for the longest time for NC has been the enforcer, and it was a great equalizer. It is now just outclassed by the gatekeeper. A huge shift for TR vs Vanu, and also relevant for TR vs NC.
The enforcer is a real killer with the double vehicle damage it puts out (on an Anti-Vehicle Vanguard), however you really need to play well to reliably counter infantry with anti-tank weapons, and harassers can be a real problem due to bullet velocity. I say this, because the gatekeeper doesn't have these problems, it shreds everything, no downsides. This really ends harasser vs. harasser, or harasser vs prowler.

Everything you mentioned was either not in the game yet or not in the current state. So this thread has no relevance today. And you are just too stupid to realize that. And feel free to report this. Either the mods will lock this thread, or lock me out. Either way they will be forced to do their job.

It is really not "great".

3106 - VS Skyguard | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 6.31
3107 - NC Skyguard | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 6.18
3108 - TR Skyguard | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 6.00
3730 - Titan-150 AP | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 1.99
4008 - P2-120 AP | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 1.30
3460 - Supernova FPC | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 1.21