Top 5 Vanguard Myths... with Numbers!

So in the lead up to this latest round of nerfs, there have been many myths regarding the NC Vanguard. This PSA is meant to dispel some of the myths that are being tossed around. Stats are from the DA stats site here. MBT cause-of-death statistics are here. Damage calculator is here (though all the AT secondaries are out of date, and there were slight but insignificant changes to main cannon damage).

Myth #1: Vanguards are the best tank

Well it really depends on what you mean by the "best". But if killing people and vehicles without dying is the "best" (a definition that most people would probably agree with), then the Vanguard is far from the best.

The main three metrics to look at here are Average Kills Per Hour (AKPH), Average Vehicle Kills Per Hour (AVKPH), and Average Kill-Death Ratio (AKDR). Here's the raw data for AKPH:

Magrider HE: 32
Magrider HEAT: 21
Magrider AP: 19
Magrider AI Secondary: 61
Margrider AT Secondary: 23
Magrider Halberd: 30
Total Magrider AKPH: 186

Prowler HE: 42
Prowler HEAT: 24
Prowler AP: 24
Prowler AI Secondary: 59
Prowler AT Secondary: 19
Prowler Halberd: 22
Total Prowler AKPH: 190

Vanguard HE: 28
Vanguard HEAT: 19
Vanguard AP: 17
Vanguard AI Secondary: 66
Vanguard AT Secondary: 21
Vanguard Halberd: 26
Total Vanguard AKPH: 177

So the Vanguard is the worst tank at killing anything (armor, infantry, air, billy goats, etc). The Prowler, to really no one's surprise, is the best.

Myth #2: So What if Vanguards Suck at Killing Infantry, Everyone Knows that They're AV Tanks

It's what you hear a lot. There are many things wrong with this statement (apart from it not being true). Even if Vanguards are the best AV tanks (which they are not as I'll show later), most people who complain about Vanguards are not OK with the fact that Vanguards suck against infantry but specialize in taking out enemy vehicles. Hence the complaints about the Vanguard's alleged AV capabilities. Instead, they want the Vanguard to be totally horrible at fighting both infantry and enemy vehicles.

But the truth is that the Vanguard not the best at taking out enemy vehicles compared to the other MBTs, as shown by the AVKPH stats:

Magrider HE: 4
Magrider HEAT: 7
Magrider AP: 13
Magrider AI Secondary: 4
Margrider AT Secondary: 12
Magrider Halberd: 15
Total Magrider AVKPH: 55

Prowler HE: 4
Prowler HEAT: 7
Prowler AP: 15
Prowler AI Secondary: 3
Prowler AT Secondary: 11
Prowler Halberd: 11
Total Prowler AVKPH: 51

Vanguard HE: 4
Vanguard HEAT: 7
Vanguard AP: 12
Vanguard AI Secondary: 3
Vanguard AT Secondary: 13
Vanguard Halberd: 12
Total Vanguard AVKPH: 51

So the Magrider is actually the best AV tank, while the Vanguard and the Prowler are tied.

Myth #3: OK, So Maybe the Vanguard Isn't that Great at Killing Things, But the Shield Makes it Impossible to Kill

First off, what good is a tank if it can't blow up threats to itself and others, especially when the other tanks can? But secondly, the Vanguard is not more survivable than other MBTs, in that it cannot engage and destroy as many opponents before it itself is destroyed.

Here are the AKDR stats for each of the primary MBT cannons:

Magrider HE: 11.927
Magrider HEAT: 6.96
Magrider AP: 5.404
Total Magrider AKDR: 24.291

Prowler HE: 14.781
Prowler HEAT: 7.376
Prowler AP: 6.359
Total Prowler AKDR: 28.516

Vanguard HE: 8.145
Vanguard HEAT: 5.381
Vanguard AP: 5.22
Total Vanguard AKDR: 18.746

Yea... so the Vanguard is actually the least survivable tank. Why? Beyond the 8 (now 6) second shield, the Vanguard features horrible maneuverability and acceleration, things which count heavily in tank survival. While the Magrider can jet or strafe to safety, and the Prowler can bombard the enemy from long-range, the Vanguard can't get out of trouble quickly enough (even with the shield), and gets blown up the most.

Myth #4: Well Those Stats are Just There Because Vanguards Never Have Secondary Gunners

Most often used by the VS to explain why the Magrider is superior. But that stats show that the Vanguard usually has more secondary gunners than the Prowler, so that shouldn't account for performance discrepancies between the Vanguard and the Prowler.

Magrider
All primary cannons- 20,039 days
All secondary weapons- 5,138 days
Percentage of time that there is a secondary gunner- 25.6%

Prowler
All primary cannons- 25,605 days
All secondary weapons- 2,257 days
Percentage of time that there is a secondary gunner- 8.8%

Vanguard
All primary cannons- 17,202 days
All secondary weapons- 3,255 days
Percentage of time that there is a secondary gunner- 18.9%

So despite the fact that Prowlers have the least percentage of secondary gunners, they still can match the Vanguard.

Myth #5: You Suck and NC Tankers Suck, That's Why the Stats are So Bad

My suckage aside, Vanguard pilots and gunners are just as good as any other tank crew. Take for instance average accuracy rates among the tanks:

Magrider HE: 48
Magrider HEAT: 44
Magrider AP: 46.4
Magrider Halberd: 43.9
Total Magrider Accuracy: 182.3

Prowler HE: 39
Prowler HEAT: 35.6
Prowler AP: 38.2
Prowler Halberd: 36.6
Total Prowler Accuracy: 149.4

Vanguard HE: 42.8
Vanguard HEAT: 40.2
Vanguard AP: 41.7
Vanguard Halberd: 39.8
Total Vanguard Accuracy: 164.5

So Vanguard gunners are solidly middle-of-the-pack, and are at average at least better gunners than their TR counterparts. The best shots are the VS, probably due to shot stabilizers (which is much more helpful than the VS usually admit).

So in summary, stop being afraid of the Vanguard, pre-nerf it was already pretty poorly off:

The DA stats site does not reflect current balance because it pulls lifetime stats, not stats from specific months or periods of time.

I am so sorry this happened to you, NC. Apparently, our player base cannot figure out that attempting to rush an invulnerable tank is a bad thing.

This would only be reassuring if the Vanguard was about to get buffed, and not nerfed.

Sure there was a period when the Vanguard shield was buggy as heck, but then again that just shows how central it is to even making the Vanguard worse-than-average. Take that away...

Pretty much that's the story of the Vanguard. A lifetime of suckage. Which is about to get a lot suckier.

Colonel i don't know why you even bother.....Once i uploaded several youtube clips showing a Prowler dishing out enough damage to destroy a maxed shield Vanguard in 8s.....Till this day the TR haven't accepted that fact....Another time some VS claimed that the Vanguard was faster so once again i uploaded 3 clips showcasing acceleration and top speed of all 3 tanks in which the Mag and the Vanguard had the same top speed but the Mag reached that in half the time of the Vanguard....Again till now most VS don't accept that as a fact.....
So please tell me how did you expect any of the VS and TR to accept official stats taken from the game when they don't accept what they themselves see ?

What he's saying is that no conclusion can be drawn from that data beyond one pertaining to the performance of each MBT across the entire history of PS2. In other words it's useless.

It's actually sort of weirdly relevant that it's polling data from the year+ that the shield was broken.

The reason I think it's so funny is that the shield has been operational exactly like it is now for 6 months and is entirely unchanged from how it was at release. Why did it suddenly become a huge problem within the last month or so? I don't get it.

I guess a couple tank spergs got their panties in a twist and started a movement, same thing that happened to the Tomcats BECAUSE I MEAN REALLY, LIBERATORS RUNNING FLARES? HAH. Then everybody too dumb to work around a tank that spends 42 out of every 60 seconds as the slowest, most killed target of all the tanks chimed in and here we are.

Last two patches basically can be summed up as, "if you want to drive a tank, you should be flying a Liberator"

I don't know what video proof you used but the Vanguard does have 5KPH more speed though Mag does have better Acceleration.

Also, your KDR is global, not tanks killed vs died to tanks. We kill Vanguards with Infantry mostly... that or outnumber them.

It could also use more AI power... which should be accomplished with the Enforcer Modified, making it's max pellet spread tight enough to be useful at much longer ranges. They tweaked it a little bit, but from my last test it needed a lot so it's probably not enough.

The biggest "buff" to the Vanguard was back in GU08 (May 2013), when they made the shield actually work (prior to that the shield would sometimes not kick in, or be completely depleted by a single shot). Wasn't really a buff as they simply made the shield work like it was intended to.

Since GU08 it's been 350 days till today. The time since launch (Nov. 12, 2012) to when the Vanguard was buggy? 162 days.

Even lifetime stats should reflect the Vanguard in its current "working" configuration.

Flares only bought you 6 seconds... you were (and are) still generally screwed.

I've taken out Libs with my Tomcat Mossie, they had flares... didn't help em much though it did cost me a whole missile and another 3 seconds of nose gun.

This is correct. The KDR figures listed represent how much of anything an MBT can kill, and how much of that anything that can kill the MBT.

Ideally a tank-only KDR would give you a better picture of AT capabilities, but I don't have those figures. Regardless, global KDR gives a pretty good picture of how a tank will behave under real combat situations, which are not segregated between tanks and infantry.

Essentially it doesn't matter if an enemy tank killed a Vanguard or enemy infantry killed a Vanguard; a dead Vanguard is a dead Vanguard.

So your numbers are meaningless as you decided to pull them from the wrong place, stop trying to use them to defend your argument. Get new and relevant data and start again(pro-tip: the last relevant survey put vanguards squarely at the top, try searching reddit)).

Ok, well the Vanguard is killing a lot less infantry, and being killed by infantry more often, whereas the Mag's and Prowlers AKDR's are much higher since they make better inf farming tanks.

Lightnings are where you'll find the best KDR for NC because they're practically strictly used for AI (and skyguard ofc) whereas a solo VS player is better off taking an AP lightning than their MBT if they don't have a gunner.

VKPH is going to be low and close for all 3 factions... because tanks don't battle very often. It's mostly infantry vs tanks and yes, Vanguard is at a disadvantage here. Canister secondary needs some serious buffing. It should be at least on par with the Mag's AI secondary.

It's a well-made post, but Giggily is right. You can't use the raw data from dasanfall for a balance/performance assessment because it's lifetime data, meaning that it's potentially extremely inaccurate. This invalidates pretty much every single point you're making here because the data simply isn't reliable enough for drawing conclusions. Also, before you say that not that many things have changed, please remember that these stats include everything from general HP buffs, a broken shield, esfs instagibbing tanks, and the pre-splash buff AI performance (= NW nerf).

I'd like to redirect you to this thread: https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/comprehensive-mbt-stats-2-12-2-26.175886/ . Merl0 has been collecting lots of current data, and this basically is the best and only (real) source that can be used for a proper MBT performance analysis. Make sure to check the analysis and grouping tabs for a breakdown of the data there.

You mean 1KPH right ?

Vanguard 66 :
Magrider 65 :

And the Mag has 0 - 65 @ 4.9s while the Vanguard has 0 - 66 @ 7.9s.....

>implying it wasn't called out as broken even in beta.

its a poor mechanic, SOE got sick of our complaining and suggestions and then troed to fix it. Nobody was happy with the changes on pts-we had assumed the extra week they took to work on the patch they'd address something more than the TR's whinging about carbines.

try using gear pop.

Except no data has ever been put forth to support this claim. It exists entirely in the heads of other tankers.

"You're wrong because you didn't cite recent data, like this data I found awhile back that I'm not citing, therefore by my own standards I am wrong too"

Oh sorry, I was talking base speeds.

I run Rival because it's essential to my survivability, which generally leaves me 20 or 30KPH slower than enemy MBT's (Van/Prowler) and 25-40KPH slower than Lightnings since most tread tanks use Racer (more lightnings run Rival than MBT's so I included their Rival speed)

I always like to compare identical things to make things better and unbiased so when 90% of the Vanguards use Racer 3 i compare it to Racer 3 with the 2 others as well.

The gear skip Van Dax is talking about is a "bug" and one that not everyone can use so it's not something i can take into account especially since it may not be in the game tomorrow.