Time to remove the C4

Discussion in 'Light Assault' started by Celtin, Dec 22, 2016.

  1. Celtin

    Hello All,

    This is my first post on these forums after over 1,000 hours in game since release and honestly its only to voice my opinion about the current LA(Although this game has much more pressing issues such as meta). The way I see it, the light assault, as it is currently, being termed "light" should not have the choice of a weapon capable of more pure explosive damage than any other in the entire game. It's contradictory to the very role of a nimble rooftop/flanking class. Since we now have a rocket rifle that offers meager but class appropriate anti armor damage values, I find the C4 to be even more unnecessary as it is out of place. In all reality C4 should be for heavy assaults and engineers as it sounds right in general and these two classes offer some more viable anti-vehicle options as is and as they should. I mean why in the world would a combat medic or basic infantry or even a sniper have access to such a blunt force combat option. I'm enlisted and would **** myself if every 11B walked out of the barracks with a block of C4, I'd probably **** myself to death. Furthermore and lastly, the wave of light assaults with C4 often limit the use and capability of maxes who are meant to be a powerful almost tank like infantry option to combat large forces, armor, or airborne enemies. One or two blocks of it will kill any max(usually one in my experience if the hit is dead on). This is just my view and experience, I'm not looking to argue it but others input is more than welcome so discuss away.

    With Holiday Spirit,
    • Up x 8
  2. Demigan

    The term "light" stands for "mobile". Just like an infantry-mortar can be "light" but still throw giant mortars at the enemy. Equipping the LA with C4 isn't counter to it's role. It's a CQC weapon and who better to give it to than the mobile class that can actually bring it there? It's not as if it's a heavyweight rocketlauncher, it's two bricks of explosives.
    Besides that, you shouldn't let yourself be led by a name. You should look at what would improve the game the best. If that means giving the Infiltrator a mortar and the HA an acid thrower, so be it.

    Now consider this: What do you balance the game on?
    You balance it on effort required to use the weapon, the resources you pay and the time it takes to use the weapon. A Sniper for instance is in theory OP, it can OHK at longer ranges than any other infantry AI weapon and has less RNG. However the effort required to pull it off, combined with the bolt-action time, mean these weapons are balanced with the easier to use LMG's/AR's/Carbines.
    Vehicles cost resources. This makes them a force multiplier. Does that mean they should be invulnerable death machines? No ofcourse not. Vehicles reduce the skill required to stay alive, even in the face of C4 fairies. Vehicle increase your firepower, make you invulnerable or highly resistant to most weapons and give you a ton of speed to boot.
    Time and resources are interchangeable in the game. 1 minute equals 50 resources. this means that 6 deaths at minimum costs you 1 minute, or 50 resources. That's not counting the time required to get back to your original position. Now add the effort required to get to your target stealthily, since being spotted means your target shoots you or simply drives away, as well as the nanite investment... Most of the time, vehicles are still more efficient for their nanite cost compared to C4. Add insult to injury and most infantry AV weapons are waaay under par compared to any vehicle weapon when you add the effort required to get a kill and the chances that your opponent will get away alive or will have created more than enough destruction to be better off.

    So I'll tell you what: C4 can be nerfed (not removed), but only when viable infantry alternatives are given to all classes. This doesn't mean that the Infiltrator will be wearing an AV weapon, but he could be hacking empty enemy vehicles and/or messing with the occupants by disabling/nerfing parts of the tank temporarily. There should also be a bunch of nanite-costing AV weapons that go into the utility slot. The HA for instance could get a LAW that holds multiple missiles, allowing the HA to put out a lot more DPS in a short time and at longer ranges than costless rocketlaunchers. Other classes could get access to various micro-missile launchers, grenade launchers, anti-material rifles designed against heavy armor (although not necessarily with super-high accuracy) etc.
    • Up x 3
  3. Eternaloptimist

    Funny how LA finally gets the same range of equipment as other classes (something for the tool slot) and suddenly everyone is crying OP. If you read the recent posts you'd think poor tankers and Maxes couldn't go 5 metres without blowing up.

    And yet I still see so many tanks rolling about farming infantry, spamming cap points and spawn rooms and even shooting at each other occasionally. Trying to move over open ground on foot is also a major hazard these days thanks mostly to vehicles.

    Maybe it's just that lots of people are playing LA at the moment (for a change) and so they're more obvious on the battlefield. It'll pass, like the outrage caused when Maxes could suddenly be killed by tank mines and the Archer came out.

    It seems pretty clear that the devs want to reinforce the message that PS2 is a regular infantry game and not something to be taken over by vehicles and walking death machines. C4 is an effective counter to things that are otherwise very hard to hurt by infantry. The Gal is about the only thing in the game that doesn't have an effective counter (although I think the Lib comes a close second). That's all there is to it.
    • Up x 4
  4. Eternaloptimist

    And vehicles no longer have the option of radar that makes them almost impossible to stalk...............:)
    • Up x 1
  5. Corezer

    I remember when I said LA should get free UB grenade/shotgun (with another rail attachment) as tool, then we got rocklet rifle

    I remember when I said I wanted sprinting cone while jetpack is on, for some at least reasonable defense, then we got walking cone in all aerial states.

    This patch has been lol, we're gonna get nerfed for this at some point. Balanced or not it's way too much too fast to not have the rest of the playerbase up in arms and we're a minority class. Let's enjoy it while we can guys.
  6. Eternaloptimist

    That does seem likely...........although maybe DBG just want more people to play LA, which is also something that could happen if they leave things as they are now.
  7. SupaFlea

    Well if your using Light is specification of armament then Heavy should just have the rocket launcher, extra explosive, LMG and no extra shield. so maybe you have to pick between a rocket launcher or the over shield and LA has to pick between C-4 and jets?

    Bare in mind C-4 costs 100 points, exactly how much do rockets cost, that for the price of 4 bricks of C-4 you can get a tank that can replenish its ammo and keep coming destroying vehicles.

    You there are those of us respectable LA who use it as AV but ive seen just as many HA use their rockets as AI, why should they be allowed to 1 shot AI with their anti vehicle weapon while you want to take a 1 shot non retrievable mine that is the most expensive in the game away from a class that quite easily countered by half decent players.
  8. Eternaloptimist

    Both assault classes are rather deadly - LA to vehicles because jetpack/C4 and HA to infantry because LMG/overshield.

    Seems like essentially the same argument - are the assault classes too good at what they do or not? In my experience a really pro player of either class will look seriously OP but an average player of either class is not too big a problem to deal with.
    • Up x 1
  9. Meserion

    If they removed C4, they'd have to either buff anti-armor weapons substantially or nerf Armor into oblivion, as currently the best counter to Armor Spam (something way too common lately) is C4 Light Assaults with drifters dropping out of the sky...
    • Up x 1
  10. MaDiv

    Dropping tank parties? I think I got what you need:

    But srsly, C4 is fine imo. You can either equip anti infantry radar ( which works perfectly fine for me) or equip EOD. You can equip some armor that reduces C4 dmg so you'r just burning in an MBT.

    And don't get me started with how precise you have to be in order to drop a few tanks with just two C4s and a valk as solo player :rolleyes:
  11. SupaFlea

    C4 is a much of a problem as HA's having everything to kill everything except a sniper rifle, atleast C4 takesmore skill to use than simply tapping a panic button to beat everyone toe to toe. Not to mention rockets dont cost anything, the amount of vehicles you can take out with 4 bricks of C4 compaired to pulling a MBT for an extra 50 points and being able to repair and rearm for free you can a heck of a lot more dmg.

    If your taking LA ability to deal with Armor you should make HA choose between powersheild or rocket launcher,
  12. Corezer

    if they want to make tanks everything that they are in real life, as chingles would like, then they need to make them go to a base for repairs. they can still go fast, people heal from near death in seconds after all, but one shouldn't simply dip behind a rock and come out brand new within 8 seconds when it takes 10 just to get your shield pumping...

    there are plenty of other changes, such as vehicles mystically forming out of the ether from about half of a single troop's infinitely replenishing resource that requires no skill, or even leaving the warpgate, to acquire, but these are the biggest ones.
  13. Hyraltia

    Minority class? LOL, excuse me while i look around and see 90% of fights being LAs on a roof somewhere, I actually see more LAs per fight than i do HAs. Also the issue with C4 is the overuse and spam of it as the "C4 primary" **** we have going on now, much like the complaints and jokes over "Rocket launcher primary" that HA gets flak for.

    Also, as the OP said, there is no realm in which MEDICS should have c4 bricks, every class does NOT need anti vehicle options. When is a medic ever going to be running at a tank? never and it shouldn't be, when is a medic going to be running at a max? never and it shouldn't be, getting the drift here? just like infiltrators avoid vehicles like a plague, medics should be too as it isn't their job, we have heavies, maxes and engis for that.

    Read the class descriptions. Hint: HA literally describes it as a class that was invented to combat the invention of new vehicles and armor, LA? not so much, they don't even MENTION vehicles. Their entire description is based around flanking and team support. I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw an LA working to advance their teams push with flash or smoke grenades, they are always lone wolfing it and throwing c4 over walls.

    The class has come way too far and encroaches on what is to be other classes specialties, we do not need more AV, especially AV that is used as AI more often than AV (mind you this is coming from someone who literally never pulls vehicles other than the occasional Valkyrie, and yeah vehicles can annoy me a bit, know what i do? play strategically and avoid them or use MAXes to their full potential and bombard them from over walls).

    When looking at an item and deciding if it is overpowered you need to ask yourself a few questions:
    1) Is there a better alternative to this item in terms of stopping power or utility in this slot? For C4, no there isn't, nothing tops this item in slot.
    2) What is the percentage of infantry units carrying this item compared to alternatives, if it is over 30% (considering c4 slot has around 4-5 choices average per class) then it is overpowered.
    3) What is the trade off of taking this item over something else, and if that trade off is not equally effective then it is overpowered.

    C4 pretty much meets all of those requirements.....so guess what, overpowered.

    The last and final issue: the C4 suiciding that happens, the fact that it can nearly guarantee you come out positive (aka you get 2+ kills per death with little to no skill required m2 m1 in a general direction doesn't count as skill) is something that backs up the item is overpowered.

    Edit: For clarification, my issue with c4, purely the over spam and use of it as an AI weapon, it needs significantly increased skill cap or decreased AoE radius so it's still equally effective vs tanks and sunderers but less of an LOL throw it around a corner and get 5 infantry kills. AoE needs a reduction, nothing else.
    • Up x 4
  14. Corezer

    your statement is a matter of perception, the numbers don't lie, LA is a minority class, like infiltrators.*
    I've already stated that a nerf is bound to happen, as the changes we have gotten are more powerful than what I ever thought to ask for, so I'm not sure what you're arguing about but I don't intend to read the other 20 pages of your misdirected and subjective drivel to find out.

    *this was true 6 months ago, I haven't looked at the numbers recently, but you should look at the date of posts to which you reply...
  15. ListenTourBalls

    What about a compromise: limit LA to one brick of c4. If that's not enough increase the nanite resupply cost or don't allow resupply of c4? Or increase arming time to something like 5 seconds. I think c4 is fine as is but these are changes I could tolerate.
  16. TR5L4Y3R

    Rockletrifle is much less effective than rocketlaunchers even lock ons and requires you to be still close to target aswell as bursting to deal good dmg in a short ammount of time

    as for c4 .. other than flash and harrasser it takes always 2 bricks to instagib a vehicle and in case of sunderers you can't even do that especialy with deployshield .. also c4 are one of's for their nanitecost you can use them only once .. if you miss you miss hard wasting those nanites .. take any vehicle or max and the killpottential even when you are on your own is much MUCH higher than what you can archieve with 2 bricks of c4 ... so no c4 is totally fine .. it requires to get in touchingrange of the target .. meanwhile in a tank or harrasser you can shell infantry and vehicles from range for a good ammount of time
    especialy if you have repair and resuply support ...

    and LA with its rockletrifle like a sniperinfil is not a class you see around medics and engineers often ..
    • Up x 1
  17. LordKrelas

    Without two bricks, Tanks can repair unless double-teamed by two LA's in an incredibly short amount of time.
    In addition, Tanks will be getting C-4 Armor, forcing two bricks & rocklets to be taken out - It's on PTS, if you want to try it.

    C-4 costs nanites every time you throw it, regardless if it detonates, misses, gets disarmed, or actually hits something.
    5 Seconds is a lot of time - long enough to easily kill any LA many times over, or disarm the C-4 while they try to detonate.

    You can tolerate it? As a Tanker or LA? lol.

    Without 2 bricks, Any tank or Sundy might as well not give a ****.
    • Up x 2
  18. ListenTourBalls

    As a light assault. I may have only been playing for a few months but i know how many bricks it takes to destroy something. Op was saying he feels one light assault shouldn't be able to destroy a tank by himself. Two light assaults working together isn't really a lot to ask in a team play game. I was just throwing out ideas for those who think c is overpowered. The point of this thread. No need to get snippy.
  19. LordKrelas

    That tank can handle 5 LAs by themselves, without a Gunner.
    So to ask every tank be killed by multiple LAs, while the tank can gun Solo is irony.

    The moment the tank isn't by its lonesome as well, let alone with a Gunner, it becomes near impossible to brick anyone with a brain.
    2 Tanks, solo, means 4 LA's that must manage to get 2 bricks, one per person onto the tanks & detonate without anything going wrong.
    1 Tank with a Gunner, can deny all 4.
    1 Tank without a Gunner, can deny both LAs, with the risk of even 1 LA dying removing the chance to kill the Tank.

    All a Tank must do, is kill one LA, and the other is rendered basically useless.
    If multiple tanks, it becomes even easier to kill a Single LA, let alone that they can't attack all of them at once, the moment one is engaged, they all are engaged.

    For a team game, you want LA's to need to work in pairs, magnifying the risks, while allowing a Tank to be run solo.
    A single Gunner, or intelligent tanker can kill multiple LA's by themselves.
  20. ListenTourBalls

    I guess the question is, should a light assault be able to solo a tank? I personally feel no but this is the way it is currently and I understand why you wouldn't want to reduce the LA's effectiveness against tanks. Furthermore, these battles are not happening in a vacuum, the element of surprise is necessary. Of course a tanker can kill 800 light assaults if they run or fly across an open field, I probably wouldn't even attack a tank if they knew I was there or weren't distracted

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