[Suggestion] The Main Reason Infils Don't Work In PS2

Snipers are 1hk past 200m. Both rely on headshots. Both aren't even always 1hk, due to NAC and aux shield.

Like the devs, you're not being consistent. You say it's incorrect for me to say snipers are 1hk and assume everyone has perfect aim, then try to use the fact that infils can most of the time be 1 shotted with a hs as an argument. So basically, the class that specializes in setting up headshots can't do so reliably, while other classes can?


I'm not realistic, yet your arguments are founded on the basis that everyone is a pro heavy that can chain multiple headshots with ease, and every person that plays the infiltrator barely knows how to walk out the spawn room. Not very consistent, and true to gameplay, or the stats quoted.


I mean seriously, it's great to try question my sanity and quote an uncultured swine who's disgraced the human race to try to support your claims, but before you question others, at least take a minute to read (if you're able to) at what you've posted, and what you're even replying to. The dude isn't even able to comprehend a basic black and white fact. It's not something with bias, or anything remotely manipulable, it's a dictionary definition that he quoted thinking it supported him, when any 4 year old could have understood (unless Google, and the website he quoted suddenly changed their information, because they're liars too). You're using something that can't even read out the most basic of facts, and then citing him to back arguments. I'm sorry, but education says: if you don't know how to read, you can't argue. That's why they teach kids to read first; then to argue, and not vice versa (that is Latin btw).

Then try to actually analyze what's going on, and read one last time see if you've come to a decent conclusion. Really, you should learn the basics argumentative papers in high school, if you get there.


At least maybe then you'll have a mindset to realize at the very least, you're guilty of the exact same things you've accused me of, and to a far greater extent.


Based on what I've seen, working on your education should be a priority for you two, and trying to "argue" anything about video games is the least of your worries. You haven't demonstrated you've reached that level yet.

As for saying I'm the only one commenting on the problem with infils...

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/headshots-actually-do-250-damage.254210/

It's a recent post, and those who have been blessed with the ability to read don't have to look far too see complaints related to the class. Unless ofc, those guys are lying or toxic too.

Okay, please noone post anything here for 24 hours and calm down. At this points both sides are simply frustrated because both feel they are talking to a wall. This benefits noone.

Against skilled players Hunter lets me get into a position to shoot first more often and be more unpredictable which is something I value more than hitpoints. Against bad players the ability to remain cloaked longer outshines the extra hitpoints since they aren't as likely to see you, and you don't need the HP boost to beat them in a gunfight.

In my experience* as an Infil the fight is won or lost before the extra HP makes a difference. If I am in a situation where I need to be tanky I just switch to HA or Medic instead of trying to force the Infil into something I don't feel it's suited for.

*Again, this is just me, granted my loadout isn't exactly meta. I understand there are plenty of people that probably focus more on that who share your position, I just don't consider it a straight upgrade in the same way Adren Shield is for Heavy.

Simply changing the detonation mechanic from impact to a normal timer would ease a lot of this, I think. Overall it has a lot of little effects that stack up, but I think a Conc or Flash nade is just as debilitating with its One Big Effect, the only difference is how much more difficult they are to use.

My personal issue with the EMP is the fact that some bright light of a teammate always seems to run in front of me as I throw it and zap our whole squad.

You've failed rather spectacularly to show that Infils are in any way an issue, whether that is showing that the majority of players are not infils after all, or that they at best account for only 1 in 10 of your character deaths, or that they rarely ever account for the majority of kills on any server even if you cherry pick data from the fisu.
But you know what, none of that matters, because you were right about a word.

Even so since you're going to keep re-linking this:



The fault is still mine for not cross-referencing with another source, but having the nerve to call other people illiterate while touting a link you either did not read properly or simply never read in the first place is some Grade A Headassery.
Even when correct you've still managed to be wrong. How you've possibly managed to **** that up is beyond me.

That will be the end of that.

I will restate what I have already said:
Infil is not the most played class, nor is it the second-most.
The truly skilled ones are an anomaly, most are hill-fodder.
Most players are Heavy Assault Mains and they usually do the most killing.

The only notable advantage the statistics indicate is that infiltrators die less, something that is neither particularly surprising nor meaningful. KDR is not a measurement of skill or power in this game. This is not Call of Duty.

No

I would only EVER agree with this caveat, if ALL DATA about the Cloaked-Crouched infil's location was no longer being sent to other Clients video cards beyond a certain Range. Some MMO's that really protect their Stealth specialists actually have a Rendering distance cap like this and it completely shuts down any attempts to use "Chams" / RadarCheats / ShaderHacks. This game does not and no doubt never will therefore every single sniper 400m out is still a sitting duck to certain player's who have gotten away with this crap for literally YEARS.

Cloakers only have one effect, they chase the people from this game.
If you want to play a sniper simulator then PS2 is THE game of choice. Cloak and oneshot weapons for all distances!
If you like to torture yourself then play PS2 as "normal" infantry.

Absolutely ridiculous what has become of the game.

There is a distance at which the cloak does make you invisible. That distance can be changed based on client settings, but past a certain point even moving/standing infils become invisible unless you are using radar and they don't have an implant to counter it.


As for accusing people of hacking to find them, there's 2 things I must say to that.:

1) There aren't that many hackers out there, and it's usually a misconception to assume people can reliably cheat in the game.

2) If people must cheat as you suggest to find infiltrators, would that not suggest there is a problem with the class?

Restate what you've already said, you're not reading anything, can't analyze, and can't put 2 posts back to back without creating a paradox. You're so full of ****, even your **** can't follow your (lack of) direction.


I quoted those stats a few posts back and explained them. You said they were outdated and irrelevant, and proceeded to link stats of your own, which to know surprise contradicted the exact thing you asserted. Now you find refuge i my oudated stats, which have once again found relevance in your fantasy realm.


I already explained, and I'm sure others in that reddit thread have too, the fact the engineer is above the medic and light assault in that post HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH VEHICLES!!! That's why we take the engineer with a grain of salt, and consider the infil the second most played. This class in itself isn't used to kill things, it's used to play in vehicles vehicles. If you count the engineer is played as an actual class and not in a vehicle, you get a picture that matches the fisu stats you quoted earlier.



Finally because the most played class doesn't always indicate it's overpowered, we check it's ability to kill things, AND ALSO HOW MANY TIMES IT GETS KILLED WHILE DOING SO. The same reason most people check the condition and the price of the car before buying it (although you probably can't relate), we don't just look at one stat.

The heavy kills the most things on a majority of the servers yes, but it also dies almost just as much as it kills things. You have an equal chance of killing the heavy as it has of killing you. The infil on the other hand has a lot of kills, but almost half the deaths. When the infiltrator engages, you're most likely to die than it. That's the importance of KDR, but since you can't read, much less analyze stats, I'm once again wasting my time.

Keep downplaying the importance of reading, most people will maintain the fact you don't need a PHD to understand the fundamentals of a language you claim is native to you. Doesn't matter what language I write stuff in, it's all just symbols to you, and you've proved it numerous times.


Keep recycling the same out of context garbage, you can be pretentious all you want, every attempt you made to prove you have even some sort of intellectual capability has backfired. The fact you're even here trying to debate otherwise confirms the fact you can't read, you're not even humiliated and ashamed of what you've done. You can't read a dictionary definition, can't interpret statistics, can't accept reality....there's not much you really do but clown yourself in the grand scheme of things.

Okay, back to your rooms, NOW! 24 hours ain't over yet and here you started mudballing again.
You will never see eye to eye, and no amount of fighting will change that. This has gotten out of hand and is no longer productive in any way.

I don't answer to you. I certainly don't have to explain myself to you. If I choose to use the Forum's resident narcissist as a chew toy that is entirely my affair.

Project a little harder, please.

The first person to bring up the data's age was you. While I agreed it was old I never said the data was irrelevant and have freely used it as evidence since it only supported my position, which really begs the question of why you linked it in the first place.
I linked the .fisu website, which quite specifically does not show class numbers, only kills. The stats there change every hour. And yes, sometimes they do show the infil having the most kills, like today in Soltech during off-hours:

or Connery, also during off-hours:

but the in prime-time? They look like this:

or this:

or this:


These stats do update every hour, but have been broadly the same every time I have been obliged to go here to refute another ignorant argument on this topic. Every. Time.
I didn't have to wait to fetch these, I literally grabbed them as I type this (~2pm PST). And I can do it over, and over, and over again.

You're really, really going to have to decide whether you want to use those Reddit stats or not. Regardless, you're just shifting goalposts here. The fact remains they are not as prolific as you intimated earlier in this thread and arguing whether they are second or third-most is absolutely immaterial.

This is a game with 5 classes, which means that with perfectly even distribution 20% pop for each class would be perfectly acceptable. Yet somehow with 18% of the population Infiltrators are everywhere.

I see that stats are only important when you decide they are.
We talk about how many infils there are, until the numbers show that there aren't as many as you've led us to believe. So we switch gears to how many kills they get, but those pesky numbers show us that aside from some niche cases they aren't getting as many of those either.
So now all of a sudden it's about that new hotness: KDR
Apparently we're playing Call of Duty, now.

*Criticizes the use of a single statistic in evaluating the effectiveness of a class.
*Proceeds to base argument for why infiltrators are unbalanced on their Kill/Death Ratio.

Free Tip: Insults only bite when they come from someone whose opinion isn't already worthless.

No point in addressing the rest, just more ad hominem. You really shouldn't carry on so, it cannot be good for your heart.

"'lieu' is Latin, you ignorant cretin.
You are about 1000 years too young to be as full of **** as you are."





At least now you've googled and used an actual latin term lol. You're on the right track!

And I just learned KDR is a "call of duty" exclusive stat lmao.

As for the rest, just more hypocritical and flawed crap I've already addressed countless times, and just refuse/can't read, much less understand anything.


I'd have more success killing a donkey with soft figs than trying to explain anything to your newborn mind, so for the sake of everyone, I'll leave it there. You can now go rub one out in victory.

On its own KDR is a near useless metric to measure anything significant. You can be an utter coward and/or use the FotM vehicle farming tool and get that KDR up and beyond. However, your dank MLG ready mountain dew infused KDR is a vanity metric, i.e. which stops looking impressive the second someone digs a single layer deeper and look at your KPH/SPH and how you attained such stats.

If you take a scenario where lots of people are fighting over a heavily contested target then all those who are engaged in such a battle can expect 1) lots of kills 2) lots of deaths 3) worse KDR 4) better KPH/SPH. The infiltrator might not die as often but is is unlikely to net as many kills. A good infiltrator can overcome the downtime but those are few and far in between. The infiltrator makes up with this with other support tools and its cloak.

TL;DR: KDR on its own is meaningless unless you can back it up with KPH/SPH (and without cheesing it). The CoD mention is probably referring to a player who is more obsessed with the appearance of being good than actually being so. A fairly common trait in the so-called "CoD-kiddie."

This is what I was trying to say. The infiltrator is typically a class for KDR farmers. They don't have a real impact on a fight, they use their ability that allows them to avoid fights in order to die less.

The class combines great weapons with arguably the best ability in the game, which is only made worse due to the clienside nature of the game. It's why they nerfed tanks/rockets 1hk abilities, and made shotguns extremely situational and random.

Infils could equip shotguns for a short while in beta if I remember correctly. Back then it was the only 1hk option they had, since nanoweave added extra health. They removed access to shotguns because it was deemed too powerful. A few years later, they play around with resistances and make snipers 1hk. Snipers have way more effective range, and don't fire randomly. I'm a bit confused at why the game chose inconsistency as it's direction.

It's also a problem I have with bastions and OS, these are things that don't do much in fights but farm, and the devs have made it a very annoying and almost impossible task to stop them without actually pulling one yourself. Doesn't enhance gameplay, it just adds these annoyances which in the end cause players to leave.

KDR is a stat that many people brag about in Planetside 2, which is why quite a few people play infiltrator, and hardcore tryhards have medic slaves constantly reviving them to erase a death from their stat (I won't name any players, but I have a few in mind) or redeploy to "farms". Have you ever heard anyone brag about their SPH? Yes, there's no denying these stats are important, and I've already addressed them to support the fact that infiltrators are useless.

The purpose of comparing the kills to the deaths obtained by the fisu is to point out a fairly clear pattern. You can see in a majority of cases, other classes have just as much if not more deaths than kills. It's only the infiltrator that seems to die far less than other classes. You say there's not that many master infils, and I'll agree with you, there's not that many skilled playersacross any class. However players seem to avoid dying far more when using infil. It's just to say that their ability along with their weapons + the clienside nature of the game allows for them to avoid dying while picking off kills. This is why back in Planetside 1, the infiltrator could not cloak with a primary, and everyone had access to all weapons, and it's also the reason they removed shotgun access to infils after a while in beta.

I'd like to suggest a few changes to make the play a bit more active if people really want to keep infils in the game.

1) Remove stalker cloaking
2) Remove the ability to cloak with a primary equipped.
3) Either implement 2, or/and remove the 1hk ability of sniper rifles.
4) Incite the infiltrator to actually participate in fights: maybe add vehicle hacking (not to deployed sunderers ofc).
5) Buff cloak duration a bit, maybe to 20-30 seconds max, and make the ability drain when shot at.
6) Remove the ability for infiltrators to redeploy while cloaked.
7) Reduce the effects of emp (it should not take out all the shields).


I get it's annoying to admit your class needs a nerf, but they've nerfed vehicles, the aerial combatant implant, heavies, flashbangs, concussion nades, certain weapons, etc. It's a bit ridiculous that they take the initiative to "balance" but don't follow all the way through. Really, the only "nerf" infils got is the ability to cap while cloaked, which should have never been a thing in the first place, and darklights, which work 50/50. Air is in the same boat, but others and I have already tried discussing that issue in other threads.

I just want the game to succeed, so I make little posts about ideas and things Iothers and I have observed in the game. In the end, it's just a game, I'm not going to stop playing until it dies, and no, I don't have a deep hatred for infils or air. I would just like things to actually be consistent, in order to generate more fun and be less confusing for new players. Really, the number of poor noobs I've seen try to rocket primary in desperation only to realize their launcher isn't a 1hk, and then switch to the infiltrator is depressing. I don't own the game, I'm sure I'd find another game if this one died, and I have no illusions that the devs will read the forums and actually do anything. However, I do like to discuss the lost potential of the game and some of the main issues it has, when people are ready for it.



On a side note, thanks for actually contributing to the conversation, it's good to find at least one sane person in the chat

We can both agree right now infiltrators aren't being used to enhance battles?

What I'm asking is to refocus the role of the infiltrator on actually infiltrating, or simply remove it if they don't want to do that.

The suggestion might as well been "You get to sight-see, since you aren't dying enough in combat. Everyone needs to murder you in their effective range, so you aren't allowed to out-range that heavy-Assault."
Infils' achieve disruption, via their ability to kill; They can't remove hard-targets (Sunderers), they aren't Clearing rooms, they aren't buffing their Allies (Medics), they can't reinforce positions (Engineers).

An Infiltrator, with a Sniper, much like anyone equipping a Battle-Rifle, or long-range weapon, tries to not engage their opponent in the Opponent's best-range -- A smart-infiltrator, with their ability to only kill soft-targets, or scramble tech, is doing their job to not die.
The Longer they Live, the longer the disruption to the Enemy formation - They aren't tanks, they're fragile.
If they were dying more than Classes intended to be front-line, They aren't doing the Disruption end of their job very well.
Maybe need to Learn the Difference between Tank-Shells & Sniper rifles, let alone Shotguns.
Gauss Saw & CARV get compared all the time, People usually look past raw Damage-per-Bullet at Pin-point Precision as that's inhuman & not practical , Yet sniper rifles people forget how guns work.

They sneak in, they disrupt enemy activities, kill key targets, and fade away.
They do their job, your Suggestions remove their ability to operate, to the point any Class does their job better

• Recon: Everyone has Sensor darts already.
• High-Priority Target Removal: They're a sitting duck, and the Sniper's best shot can't kill effectively.
• If they have a primary weapon like an SMG, they can't close the gap, Light-Assaults at least can scale walls.
• If they try to use their Class Specific grenade, it will be less effective than a Regular Grenade.
• Their Hacking, for actual use, requires them to be only armed with a sidearm, and is reliant on oblivious players.

Vehicle hacking doesn't incite them to engage;
As to get close to that vehicle, they would have to be packing only secondary weapons.
And without their class ability, You'd be better off with Light Assaults than Infiltrators in every case.
With their Class ability, They're poorly armed, if found lose their class ability, and their best trick is then their EMP grenade, which is heavily nerfed -- and if they're not using it, Their best weapon is a sniper rifle, which lost 1k ability, so they'll be counter-sniped, casually, on top of the weapon now being slower than every other option, even at perfect accuracy.

In which case, their usefulness is entirely based on the stupidity of the enemy Vehicle operators.
Unlike Light-Assaults, Medics, Engineers or Heavies, which are always useful, if they have their Class Abilities.
Tanks are a Farmer's Tool, not Infiltrators. Unless they like the slowest kills in their lives.

You aren't right about a lot of things, are you?

Call of Duty, and other small-scale arena-esque shooters like it are the only place where your Kill-Death ratio has any practical significance. COD can be substituted for any of a number of small-scale arena shooters where your primary objective is simply to kill the enemy, and the metric for how well you do this is that magical number.

Planetside in particular is very easy to farm a high KDR stat in, simply because so many opportunities exist to protect yourself from dying. The problem is if you play passively in this way you will never be of consequence to the battle at large. This is why KDR matters so little to most people.

I don't know why I'm bothering to explain this to you, since it's simply going to go in one ear and immediately ricochet off the rock you have for a brain, but there it is.

More insults. More projection. Zero arguments. No surprises.

If this is where you plan to tap out then your concession is accepted.

Here are some more images for the general audience to partake of. Two for each server, one early AM, one late AM, PST.

Not more than any other class really, e.g. a heavy assault player might sit securely in a position and farm rather than trying to push the line forwards, an engineer might ignore a dying MAX, a medic might be too preoccupied to heal/ress, a light assault might get caught in the moment as well and focusing on keeping the kill streak going. There are many ways for each player to take the path of least resistance and/or adopt a self-serving play style.

I'm not sure how well the infiltration aspect of hacking and covert missions works within PS2 since there aren't a lot of reasons for such a class to exist. Maybe if there was a more solid foundation in the game mechanics such as more complex bases and barriers an infiltrator could work with (terminals, turrets, shields, and even shortcuts like bridges and walkways). My chief concern being, would it be fun and engaging to play.

Another question worth asking, will RPG go as far as to delete an entire class or fundamentally change a class so much quite a lot of players would demand refunds since all those weapons they got are now gone? More crucially, this would take a lot of effort on RPGs part. A more likely approach would be tweaks in balance of certain weapons/abilities (as we discussed in the other thread about CQC BASRs and damage tiers).

In short, I struggle to see how a PS1-esque infiltrator would be able to find a home in PS2 with rather drastic changes to both mechanics and massive redesigns of bases. Perhaps something for PS3?

Thank you. Most people probably fight in the same hex as a 2+ or higher KDR sniper all the time without realizing it, because they are of no consequence to the battle. Where if there are DPSO or 00 players in a fight you find out real quick because they actually make an impact.

I admire your optimism, let's hope there is a PS3 coming.

Nah I don't think the devs will do anything to the infiltrator, much less remove it. I just wanted to point out it doesn't really work in Planetside 2 the way it is.

It would definitely take a few weapons tweaks to help balance the class and make it more fun, I just don't like the fact they "balance" stuff half-*****. I mean, they start "balancing" one or two things, but leave out a whole area. Instead of balancing stuff, they create imbalances, and aren't consistent in their approach to balance.


In the end, I guess they could at least rename the class to sniper so it can actually fulfill it's role?

Hold up hold up. This entire time you keep backing into "I'm not advocating the removal of a class", yet here you are, doing just that.

"Fix it to the way I want it, or get rid of it" smh

I've explained the class isn't functioning properly, and doesn't open up a role in the combined arms nature of the game.

Tweaks to the class would be necessary, but tweaks to make the infiltrator an actual "infiltrator" would require such efforts and change the current playstyle of most people who use the class so much that it would simply be easier to remove the class entirely.

At least rename it so it's role is more clear.



Btw, when you paraphrase people incorrectly, you use ' '. Other people have provided nice suggestions to make the class more involved and balanced. Others instead have denied there's a problem and just get triggered when I point out something's wrong and a few solutions to try to fix it.