[Vehicle] State of MBT's?

This is where the prowler is the most superior though.
Most places like that are some distance from the fight, and have easy opportunity to find somewhere to hide should people start shooting you.
It depends a lot on the terrain though, with hossin being the worst for D-prowlers, and esamir being the best along with northern indar.
A really common example is Howling Pass to Mao Area. There are many many places you can set up and rain hell on vehicles coming from both directions.
A less common example is the bridge area to Scarred mesa, which lets you overlook into Tawrich & it's northern gate base and shell vehicles freely.

People are forgetting that muzzle velocities between AP, HE and HEAT were standardized to the AP velocity. This helped keep HE and HEAT at least somewhat competitive but ya nothing has changed.

What I find funny is that the Prowler actually has the worst average accuracy of the 3 MBT's. Of course they are also generally shooting over longer distances (amongst other things), and probably have a looser trigger-finger, so to speak.

Ok, first of all then, let me ask you this: How is the Gatekeeper "MASSIVELY OP"? Beyond being too easy to use for noobs that is. In the hands of a good gunner the Halberd will outshine it any day. The Halberd is simply so effective and versatile once properly certed. Furthermore, the Halberd suits how advantages in MBT vs MBT engagements are exploited (in duels of good crews against one another). Another point it helps with is just keeping your tank alive by playing "smart". It's synergy with the main cannons (a bit less for the Prowler, but still) is just unrivaled. For the Magrider especially I like it.

The weapons such as the Gatekeeper, by their very design, go against a few of the principles I've set for my own method of tanking in such a way that I wouldn't really consider equipping it on my tank, unless I know I'm taking an inexperienced gunner for a spin. I'm not denying it is decent in the hands of a rookie, but these same rookies are barely hitting my Magriders/Vanguards at distances of 100-200m, where the Halberd is superior in most situations, even with the GK having 100% accuracy.

Just a sidenote for reference: A good Halberd gunner should be able to hit MANA-AV turrets in the first hit at ranges of 300m (if given a firing platform placed on level terrain). The second shot at most should be a kill shot. When I used to play more extensively I could generally hit them at 300m whilst the driver would move sideways full speed (level terrain of course). If we were stationary, I could hit them at 500m no sweat.

Ah right, so you were talking about "farming" and not "tanking". Gotcha.

So Prowlers should be resigned to only sitting at render range (you do realize vehicles render at distances greater than 500m right?), where the only use of a tank, is to destroy stationary vehicles (deployed Sundies) and noobs (sorry if I offended anyone, losing your tank to a Prowler at 500m means you dun goofed). You won't be actively having an impact on any of the fights you participate in, since there will be 20 other Prowlers trying to get the very same kills.

I find the Prowler (and the other MBTs) are of much more use breaking off from the friendly zerg, getting in closer, and actively flanking enemy positions, instead of staying near allies. That does require some experience to be able to rutinely pull it off effectively, but it is worth it. Maybe your interest in tanks would be reignited if you actually started using them as tanks, instead of glorified (useless) artillery pieces / farming platforms. Just saying.

Yeah the Prowler is good for when the enemies aren't noticing you and everything is going fine and dandy, generally against the more or less inept enemies. Once you start getting noticed though, I find the other two tanks much more effective for getting out alive (i.e. making a fighting retreat). Also, the problem with setting up Anchor positions on the flank, is that it tends to have a higher likelihood of drawing extra unwanted attention, thanks to the higher amount of shells flying through the air (both by the shells flying visibly through the air, but also by your Vehicle Stealth being much less effective due to constant firing). If the Prowler is also using the GK, which is receiving much flak as of late, the problem is only worse. Yeah, there are situations when I'm in the other two MBTs on the flank where Anchor could've netted me another kill or two, but I generally don't find that to be the issue, assuming I have a gunner of course.

Regarding your examples of positions, I generally find it more effective to move in closer than sitting at distances of 500m, at least if I want to have an impact on the fights (i.e. destroying high-valued targets that aren't being focused by 20 other Prowlers, like deployed Sundies or experienced enemy MBT crews). Good luck trying to kill an experienced MBT crew from super long range, but actually killing such crews can sway the combat momentum in favor of your faction. Not only by prematurely "saving" allies from them, but also by opening up more flanking territory for your allies to take advantage of.

The Prowler's power distribution between primary/secondary weaponry should be adressed though, which would most likely fix a lot of peoples issues with the Prowler.

Isn't that enough? That's half the point. Even a noob can reach near theoretical max efficiency with it at any distance. A couple of noobs can create a no-mans land with a 500m radius.
The other half is that as long as LoS is there, the evasive maneuvers don't matter and no other weapon is able to do that. Without the GK you'd mostly have both sides circling at let's say 200-300m, looking for an opportunity to strike, working their way closer.
What does GK have to say about it? Tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap..... Tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap..... Tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap...

No weapon is anywhere close to it when it comes to the massive influence on enemy behavior it creates. Look the wrong way for 5 seconds and a clump of 20 pixels on the skyline starts pounding you, eating a third of your life in a couple seconds. OP-shield vanguards are seen cowering behind rocks, not leaving cover for more than 10m, never getting anywhere. Mag's evasion is made ineffective. Harassers suffer the same fate. GK is inhibiting offense so hard it's not funny. It makes the ground mech play an utter ******* ****. It's nothing but an exercise at frustration. Tactics cease to matter. Generous LoS = auto-win for the TR.

Too bad that good gunners are scarce and the majority of participants is going to be mediocre by definition? Would you be able to match every decent GK with a 10x more skilled halberd or enforcer gunner? I really think not.

Let's say you have a battle of 10 prowlers vs 10 vanguards across open terrain. The TR having 8 performant tanks, carried solely by the GK's ease of use vs the NC having let's say 3? It's easy to see where things are going in this scenario.

That isn't what I would deem as "MASSIVELY OP". Did you notice the caps and the word massively? I never disagreed that it was too easy to use. Also, it isn't as effective as the alternatives in an experienced players hands, which also detracts from the "OPness" (still not saying it isn't too easy to use, but still).

Furthermore, it is also only really effective against inexperienced people, simply by the nature of the weapon, further detracting from the OPness. I kind of like to compare it to the lock-on rocket-launchers. The noobs have a moderately effective weapon against vehicular threats, bu in the hands of experienced people, there are MUCH stronger alternatives. Also, a problem is just that they are most effective against inexperienced vehicle users, leading to a situation where the inexperienced can counter the inexperienced, whilst the experienced people are mostly unaffected (of course they aren't completely unaffected, but you should know what I mean).

Also, your second statement, on a no-mans land within a 500m radius is flat out wrong. Even within 100-200m, these rookie gunners are barely hitting my Vanguards/Magriders with minimal evasive effort (Yes, you read correctly, I also wrote Vanguard). Within 500m? They are lucky if they land 10% of their shots. You are clearly exaggerating here.

You are clearly exaggerating here again. How are these people then not melting my tanks, even with 100-200m? In fact, they are barely hitting my tanks. But hey, I must be doing something wrong, because according to you, it is impossible to miss and it has pixel-perfect accuracy. I don't get caught in the open very often, and if I do, I certainly don't try to escape by moving in a straight line. Clearly tanking rocket-science at work here right?

So, how is the GK having any noticable difference here? If anyone takes damage they are just going to go behind cover and repair. The GK has no alpha, and thus has barely any chance of surprising the enemy and disable them from reaching cover in time. Not only is the GK effective in the hands of noobs (and in more competent hands, the GK is outshined) but it is also mostly effective AGAINST noobs, who lack common tanking sense and/or mechanical skills in execution of their maneuvers.

Furthermore, it is poor at the most important thing in tank duels, exploiting the enemies mistakes. If the enemy turns their weaker armor towards you for a split second, you want to be able to take as much advantage of that as possible. The Halberd does this much better. It is also better for chasing enemy tanks, as typically, you won't be chasing whilst in full view of the enemy, as they will be trying to run whilst dodging your LoS. This means the effective DPS of the GK is much less in practice in such situations (in fact, it many situations, since it is super easy to just take cover). The Halberd is perfect for taking advantage of brief opportunities and brief glimpses of the enemy to land a good shot.

What do I have to say about it? Dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge, hit, dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge, hit, repair. Barely any damage dealt.

I agree, except maybe for the Ravens, I haven't seen a weapon gain as much negative attention in a long time. On the battlefield? I'm always excited to face off agaisnt a GK, chances are it is fielded by a scrub, meaning an easy win

Ok, so you are AFK for what, 8 seconds, and you think losing 1/3 of your HP is bad? I don't even know what to say. My Vanguard destroys your Prowler in a bit over that time from scratch. Using ONE tank, doing 3 times as much damage. What is your reaction time again?

I see many Prowlers being forced to do the exact same thing. I can't exclude that it is because I'm suddenly around shooting (and actually hitting them) from the same distances they are. For the record, hitting a stationary (anchored) Prowler at 400-500m shouldn't be much of an issue with just a little bit of practice. In the terrain you are seemingly complaining the most about (northeren Indar) I can probably hit a Prowler with at least 50% accuracy at those ranges, whilst moving horizontally at full speed perpendicular to the enemy.

How much time do you have in a Magrider to claim this? I don't have that issue, even within 100-200m where the GK should be able to hit with much greater ease. 400-500m? They are only hitting my tank if I'm AFK, or by pure luck. Clever use of cover also negates the GKs DPS and makes it a worse Halberd. What Magrider stays exposed in a Prowlers line of fire whilst reloading for instance? If done correctly, the GK would get a maximum of 1-2 shots in for every Halberd shot, meaning the Halberd trumps it clearly measured in DPS.

Granted, I haven't used Harassers much in the current state of the game. Still, back when we still used em regularly, we generally weren't too worried about consistent (lowish) DPS, since we could calculate when to seek cover (or simply bail from the fight) safely. The really dangerous things were high alpha stuff that could set you on fire at a moments notice, like a Titan AP + Halberd combo. Also, it seems a lot of these people using the GK have trouble hitting my Magrider even within 100-200m. How are they going to hit a Harasser then, which is much much faster?

Maybe you need to work on your tactics? That goes against all my experience, and I still find my tactics to be as effective as previously. I have no problems whatsoever fighting the TR; in fact, as a VS/NC i prefer fighting the TR 9/10 times. Prowlers are just so easy to kill. Maybe my extensive Prowler experience pays off in my knowing how to counter them? I don't know. All I know is, everytime I hear a Prowler off in the distance, saliva starts forming at the corners of my mouth. If I see a group of them all using the GK and staying at super long range? Now that's when I get REALLY excited! Consider them flanked.

I don't see the TR dominating every single fight that involves ground vehicles either, if we are to look upon the greater scheme of things.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. What does performant tanks mean? That the TRs 10 tanks count as 8 while the NCs count as 3? That doesn't make sense. Sure, if you are talking 1/2 maybe, but that is a different discussion, and has nothing to do with the GK. If you would elaborate I'm sure I could give my opinion on the matter.

Secondly, does open terrain mean no cover at all? If so, I refuse to comment on the question since it is unrealistic. Even if there is cover, it depends on what type of cover, and how ample it is. Also, how much cover is there between the two positions? It also depends on what ranges the fights are carried out over. You really cannot simplify tank engagements like that, since so many factors play a part. If you want to setup an even somewhat realistic scenario, maybe we can try again. I can tell you this much, if I was in one of those Vanguards, I would bet on the Vanguards

I'm having the same argument with him in another thread, but you're able to articulate much better than I, as you obviously have far more tanking experience. He's a scrub who is salty that the worst tankers in the game gang up and beat him, because he refuses to flank or use his brain.

Aye, tanking experience (especially using all three MBTs instead of just one) does help! I also have a bit of experience trying to discuss things with people that have issues seeing things from other peoples perspectives (and just general A2G - G2A / Vehicle - Infantry / etc discussions). Not that my way of arguing is perfect (or near it)! I can still get as emotional as the next guy, but I do TRY to focus my arguments around statistics, and my experience.

Subjective. I am claiming it is "MASSIVELY OP", now what?

Uh-huh. "Warning, damage incoming in 3 2 1, look for a rock or rotate yourself to eat damage with your highest armor" is totes the same as "warning = damage, -10% hp, -20% hp, -30%hp...".
And the wars are usually won with hands of the average peasants, not elites, which is why for example crossbows and firearms replaced longbows.
nominal_power * ease_of_use * population = effective power.

Also if your inexperienced people gib my inexperienced people with their infinitely easier weapon then I do find myself outnumbered at no fault of my own and soon get trampled by both inexperienced people with their noobcannons and leetzors with their mlg-sticks, don't I.

I bet that in PS2 10x as many battles were won by GKs owning sunderers and tanks alike from a hex away than by skillful halberd sniping by 1 or 2 tryhards.
Btw, if GK is such weaksauce, why is 90% of prowlers sporting it and not the halberd? Are you telling me here that the TR is a noobfest?

It's not. A bunch of prowlers on the ridge behind Abandoned offices reach up to the very gate of Howling Pass. If they were reliably missing, I wouldn't be spending half an hour behind a rock every other time I go there and would be doing something more productive instead, would I.

That's 500-600m easily and between you and them there are 2-3 big rocks, the "base" itself and a fossil. And if you get trapped behind one, you can get trivially triangulated by anybody camping to the north and now you have nowhere to go.

Care to share the secret sauce to vanguard evasion? What kind of black magic can make that brick that is able to drive only forward and back, but with no sudden changes of speed and direction, all of which is totally obvious for the enemy to account for, evade anything remotely accurate? GK takes around 0.2-0.4s to travel 100-200m and how far can the vanguard get in that time? 5m on average, maybe?

Unmatched ease of use and the near guarantee of some damage actually landing. When people are circling around each other at a distance, probing each other, landing that skillshot on a significant cooldown, on the move, on the pebbles is unlikely to happen with great frequency. That means that usually you can just bolt from point A to point B and be near certain that you won't be eating unmanageable amounts of damage in the process. The whole risk/reward math that holds for almost all tank weapons goes out the window with the GK. A half-decent GK user will wax you the whole way, a bunch of half-decent GK users means you rolling dice (doctored one).

Duels are not affected by the gamebreaking synergy of the unmatched damage projection at range the prowlers enjoy. I don't care about duels. Prime time battles, supposedly the crux of the PS2 experience are not won and lost with duels, just like indoor battles are not about 2 stalkers doing stalker things. Think 5v5, 10v10. The engagement range stretches out significantly which shifts the relative balance from skill+power weapons to decent+easy-to-use weapons. Bold moves get less and less upside, more and more downside.

Whether or not you dodge is not up to you. Also with GK a glance in a rapidly changing scenario it's quite easy to not notice a couple of small blobs of pixels setting a shop somewhere. It's easy to flank when it's perfectly doable 1 hex away from the action, out of sight. So you play tough, hide to repair... only to find yourself with pants around the ankles, lit up by specs of dust on the skyline. GG right there.
You are much much more likely to notice vehicles using everything else, given that they are forced closer by the design of the weapons themselves.

So you always faceplant into lone prowlers. Amazing. Where the **** do you play >_<

At 500m? Yes, I think it's bad. If there is one ******** at 500m there can be more, they tend to multiply fast.
It would take me as much if not more time to figure out which cloud to aim at with the enforcer because 1px off and you miss by a mile. Point and click adventure at 500m is imba.

From a hex away? You wish. 1.5s of travel time means that it's a lottery.
Anecdotally i countersniped a dude who parked near the indar Ex ammo tower and spammed GK at the QRC northern gate. 650m minimum. Guess how concerned he was with me lobbing 2 second shots at him. "Oh noes, I got hit 4 times, I think I move 2m, repair at my leisure and go back to no stress spamming". You speak as the vanguard was some kind of doom device when its DPS is not something to write home about.

Enforcer, Halberd, Saron - 300m/s. Magrider is able to evade the ideal shot at distance X, whatever it is (care to produce a number?)
Skillkeeper - 450m/s. Magrider is able to evade the ideal shot at distance 1.5X.

Your plinking can be trivially outrepaired by 1 guy skipping the mindless spam for whole 3 seconds. You are not getting anywhere so mission accomplished for them. The first guy positioning himself at the 45-90 angle a hex away within his own territory is going to **** you over, putting pressure even behind the supposed cover.

I used to hate magriders with my guts but then the TR took the cake.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. What does performant tanks mean? That the TRs 10 tanks count as 8 while the NCs count as 3? That doesn't make sense. Sure, if you are talking 1/2 maybe, but that is a different discussion, and has nothing to do with the GK. If you would elaborate I'm sure I could give my opinion on the matter.

Performant meaning not doing anything extraordinarily stupid and being able to get close to maximum theoretical dps in combat. The vanguards are going to miss an awful lot more shots with their skillshot secondaries, which at the range dictated by prowlers is going to be their demise, even if slow and methodical.

You've you've been to Howling Pass-Mao area. 1. How much cover is there in the field (2 big rocks, like 3 small, a smallish elevation of the ground, the outpost itself but it's half buried and not that tall, and some dino bones and all that spanning 600m of an open field? 2. How easily can said cover be triangulated effectively even from the safety of bases 1 hex back, leaving no safe spots? There is no detour around Abandoned Offices that doesn't involve going N bases back to the Palisade and moving north, where the terrain is not that different, pidgeonholing all the attackers into a scarce few safe spots with a modicum of cover.

10 prowlers (Mao) vs 10 vanguards (Howling Pass)
10 prowlers (Indar Ex) vs 10 vanguards (QRC)

as realistic as it gets.

5 DBC says I can wreck half the people in this thread complaining about prowlers and vanguards being OP in a FPC mag vs whatever flavor of tank without me having a gunner... (1vs2)

I'll even have a kobalt on top so I can't do anything fancy.

Bads will be bads regardless of which MBT they drive. I do know you won't get within half a hex of a good van crew who can land every hit regardless of what you try in a mag.

lol, so you say