The Reverse AB is worse, the VThrust not that much higher. Reaver with Racer 3 = same Speed as a Mosquito with Hover 3, less VThrust than a Mosquito with Hover 3 abd a much bigger Hitbox. Where is the Offset for the Mosquito? Fact is, Normalizing of the Rotaries is a good thing, but stuff like Hitboxes should be normalized too, or else the imbalance just shifts in another Direction. Edit: Just to be clear, Speed, VThrust and such should also be normalized.
AB = afterburner. Airbrake not being as good as the scythe, yea that's a real problem lol. Take Hover 3 and you're only 7-8 kph slower and you have insane Vthrust to use with your afterburner = best A2A esf.
Yes, AB means Afterburner, and its WORSE in Reverse in Comparison to the Scythe. You didnt know that, did you? Just look: https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2...b-v-thrust-comparison-curious-results.142129/ Dont try to argue if you dont know the Facts.
The scythe's reverse speed is only greater than the reaver in artificial maneuvering (nose pointed 90 degrees towards the sky). In all other practical applications, the reaver (via inertia or other inherent flight mechanics) is able to perform in a far superior fashion than the scythe. Also, the scythe cannot perform a standstill vthrust climb without the hover frame. It always tends towards forward motion along the X plane. If you are unaware of this put racer 3 on a scythe in the VR and from a landed position hold down S + Space + Shift and see that you won't climb very high at all. Test this again with a racer 3 reaver and you will see with very slight pitch manipulation you can climb as high as your AB tanks will take you.
My post you originally quoted is all facts. Reaver has the most powerful Vthrust, the most powerful AB too, it has 200 kph cruise, and 7 less max speed with space added in. This is indisputable, but you jumped on it with some other dung, I don't know why. Now you say I don't know the facts lol. Only the last post in the thread seems to be right, the first videos don't seem correct. The maneuver in esf in the OP video each is different...... You can circle strafe in a reaver all day long, but not in a scythe. You lose height and the move fails, because it lacks the hover power to keep it level. AB Vthrusting isn't about max speed it's about burst of acceleration, which is why hover 3 will always be best for scythes and mossies, not racer 3. Add to this that without hover mossie and scythe reverse maneuvers tend to fail and it's a done deal. That the Reaver can get away with racer 3 is a joke in itself.
That's hardly something to shake a stick at. Since the reverse maneuver is all about positioning / making it harder to hit. a few KPH here and there won't make a difference. The goal is to move sporadically so your enemy can't aim or just to be fast enough to keep him in your sights if he's coming straight at you. Since, your moving at 300+ KPH, your enemy will have to AB after you, while you reverse thrust, which is ill advised. TL;DR small differences in AB velocity hardly matter in-game.
Spadars Videos are correct. Reason is, you can try to fly straight backwards for testing purpose, but doing that in a real Fight will get you killed. Spadar choose that way, because thats the practical way you do it. Again, the Mosquito can achieve the same Stats as a Racer 3 Reaver, and still has a much smaller Hitbox. You said the Hitbox is the Offset, but there is NO Offset for the Mosquitos Speed. You can argue as much as you want about asymmetrical Balance (Acceleration Advantage of the Mosquito, Speed Advantage of the Mosquito, VThrust Advantage of the Reaver, Front-Hitbox Advantage of the Scythe, etc.), but thats not the Point. The Devs want asymmetrical Balance. It remains a Fact that the Reaver has a much bigger Hitbox and as soon as the Rotaries are normalized, will be at a Disadvantage. If you really tell me, that 20km/h more VThrust is a big Deal, than tell me how much harder it is for you to shoot an ESF that flies at 200km/h to one that flies 220km/h. I feel hardly any Difference when shooting one. The Difference between the Reaver and the Mosquito is 20km/h in a practical Maneuver like Spadar did it. Pointing your Nose in the Sky and flying backwards is seldom of use. But, i agree. 20km/h Difference is not a big Deal. Like the 20km/h Difference in the normal VThrust of the Reaver. I wouldnt argue about that, but a lot of Players come along and take that 20km/h as an Argument for the Reavers big Hitbox. So either 20km/h are a big Deal or not. Anyway, that wasnt the Point i was trying to make. It was just about the Fact that a lot of Players argue about stuff they dont know for sure or are biased about. I never had a Problem with my Scythe going upwards in the Air from a standstill Position. I just give it a little Thrust backwards before i start Afterburning, but i do use Hover Frame. I'll try it next Time i log in with a Racer 3 and check if there is any Problem. Edit: I was curious and tried it. Didnt have any Problems with Racer 3. Flying straight up backwards to the Ceiling.
Its not that easy. What about a worse Acceleration? What about a worse Deceleration? What about worse Cruise Speed? The Devs decided to go the Route of asymmetric Balance, now we have to deal with it. I dont like it, but look at it that way: Reavers VThrust (20km/h) is offset by the Mosquitos (20km/h) higher Cruise Speed. Asymmetric Balance. Reavers stronger Forward-AB is offset by the Mosquitos better Acceleration and Reverse Afterburner. Asymmetric Balance. Reavers Rotary (20% more Burst DPS) is offset by the Mosquitos 20% more Damage per Magazine. Asymmetric Balance. Reavers Hitbox is offset by.. the Mosquitos 20% smaller Hitbox? Thats NOT asymmetric Balance. Asymmetric Balance in this case would be the Scythe / Mosquito. Scythe has a much smaller Front, but also a much bigger Top/Bottom. The Reaver has a Disadvantage where everybody else doesnt have that. Everything else fits in the asymmetric Balance approach. If they just gave every ESF the same Stats / Hitbox, it would be much easier to Balance everything around it. They dont want to, so i want them to do it at least right.
-Worst accel, a burst of afterburn will fix that. -Worst decel, while your pitching you bleed the most speed, so pitch and break. You will stop at the same time as a scythe if the scythe pitches and brakes. -Worst cruise speed, with speed frame, which is the most popular reaver airframe, you have a 5kph disparity on cruising speed. Cruising speed is more for traveling than dogfighting. Plus, you got that amazing AB acceleration and top speed. -mosquito doesn't have better accel and reverse afterburn. They are the "same" as the reaver. The reverse maneuver velocity doesnt really matter as the whole entire point of reverse thrusting is to either throw off your opponents aim or to kite someone that is coming straight at you. If your getting shot, change directions. It's about displacement of movement more than velocity of movement. (scythe has best reverse velocity but it's hardly anything to shake a stick at as long as aircraft are going over 300 kph, which they are) -Rotary burst DPS! Possibly the most important factor in a dogfight because you get to have a small window to unleash the most damage. -Reavers hitbox. the only REAL negative for reaver. -vthrust / crusing speed comparison is not asymmetric balance bc ur talking about two different categories. They do not offset. Mossy has worst v-thrust of the 3 ESFs. Reaver has best. Reaver has worse crusing speed of ESFs, mossy has best. Here is my TL;DR version of how I feel about scythe VS reaver and what actually MATTERS in-game. Not nitpicking stats, but what actually happens in combat. Reaver: Advantages Nosegun TTK AB power AB accel Best V-thrust (most maneuverable) Inertia *Not reliant on V-thrust for velocity (aim) - Not a big deal [Brakes as good as a scythe, while pitching] Best Descend speed (Hover battle / A2G cover tactics) Fastest aircraft in bursts. Especially with speed frame. Best Hover acceleration Disadvantages Big hitbox *Weakest velocity in reverse thrust (hardly a disadvantage) *Slowest cruise accel (can be overcome quick AB burst) *Slow climb and dive speed (AB fixes that) *slowest cruise speed (solved with ever popular, speed frame which is the most popular frame for reaver) Scythe: Advantages Best Nosegun Velocity / Reload Time Slim front profile (side profile is hardly shown and not worth mentioning) Slim back profile Best climb / dive speed. *Strongest velocity in reverse thrust (hardly an advantage) *Brakes [does it have the best brakes?] *Hover [Is this even an advantage for A2A combat?] Disadvantages Huge 'Top-Down' Profile Slowest Nosegun TTK No inertia Slowest forced Descent - Hover *Reliant on V-thrust for velocity - Aim, Not a big deal Slowest Aircraft when combining cruisng speed and AB speed -The scythe has no real perks that benefit it in A2A combat. Hover frame leaves your more stagnant (easy to hit), makes you have no inertia (Theory: Hoverpower = no inertia), decreases your descend velocity (peak-a-boo A2G tactics and A2A engagements to throw off aim), and it can be simulated by just tapping on your spacebar. It is a useless "perk" -We don't have the best brakes. ONLY in straight flight, do we brake harder than everyone else. However if all 3 ESFs are pitching and braking, they all stop around the same time because each ESF bleeds speed at a different pace. No "good" pilot will break w/o turning just so he can use his brake "advantage". The only thing that braking is useful for is to stop suddenly bc there are infantry to shoot on the ground that just popped into render range. Again, brakes is useless in A2A combat. -If SoE wants aircraft to fight aircraft that I believe the scythe should have an actual perk that is relevant to A2A combat. Soon I will do a post to try to get the scythe to drop hover power as a perk and get increased roll rate. -It even fits the VS philsophy. NC - hard hitting and slow. TR - Lots of bullets and Fast. VS - Accurate and maneuverable. -I find that increased yaw would be TOO good to give to the scythe so roll rate is a worthy compromise. -Roll rate doesn't make you aim better, it makes you aim faster. Yaw rate makes you aim better.
It will also drain your AB much faster if you do that, so thats no help at all. The better Brakes of the Scythe allows you to go from a Afterburn directly into a Reverse, which is a real Advantage and not doable that way in a Reaver. It also does help to stop faster in all Situation where you dont want to turn, because you hug terrain, want your Opponent to overshot and such. If the Reaver uses the Speed Frame, it has less VThrust than the Mosquito with Hover. So where does that help? Trading Speed for VThrust and beeing worse overall? The only real Advantage from that will be the better AB, which is offset by usefullness of the better Hover and Brakes of the Mosquito, if it uses Hover. Last time i checked, the Mosquito had better Acceleration and Speed in Maneuvering. Not talking about Acceleration in Reverse. A better Reverse AB Speed does help to keep Distance, which is what you want against a Reaver. So thats definetely a good thing in my Book. The Burst DPS does help when ganking an ESF, but in that case, it hardly doesnt matter, because most of the time, the fight is already decided when that happens, if the Pilots are of equal Skill. Long term, 20% more Damage per Magazine will just be as good in Dogfights. It is asymmetric Balance in the grand Scheme (is that the right term?), because its a Pro for the ESF that is offset by a Pro of another ESF. Here is my TL;DR version of how I feel about scythe VS reaver and what actually MATTERS in-game. Not nitpicking stats, but what actually happens in combat. Reaver: Advantages Nosegun TTK - Offset by 20% more Damage per Magazine, which is just as valuable outside of ganking AB power - in Forward Flight, offset by Reverse AB of the other ESFs AB accel - Just the opposite in Reverse Best V-thrust (most maneuverable) - Mosquito has better Speed, granting other Benefits. Inertia - Absolutely for my Playstyle. Wish the Scythe had it, but there are also Pilots that LOVE hugging Terrain, and in that case, its a Con. Depends on Playstyle. *Not reliant on V-thrust for velocity (aim) - Not a big deal <- not my comment *g* [Brakes as good as a scythe, while pitching] - Yep Best Descend speed (Hover battle / A2G cover tactics) - Hardly matters for me, not an A2G Guy and not much different to the Mosquito, is it? Fastest aircraft in bursts. Especially with speed frame. - But also lower VThrust than a Mosquito using the Hover Frame. Best Hover acceleration - Do you have Numbers? Disadvantages Big hitbox - Thats the Main Problem *Weakest velocity in reverse thrust (hardly a disadvantage)- It sure can be, as a Scythe Pilot you should know how valuable Distance is. *Slowest cruise accel (can be overcome quick AB burst) - Which costs you AB Power, so you have less to Maneuver around, not the best Idea. *Slow climb and dive speed (AB fixes that)- Same here *slowest cruise speed (solved with ever popular, speed frame which is the most popular frame for reaver) - Again, which costs you your Hover Advantage, a Mosquito will have a higher VThrust and be much smaller at the same time. Scythe: Advantages Best Nosegun Velocity / Reload Time - The Velocity is not even a big Deal, 50m/s hardly matters. 750m/s would be a better number, i think. Slim front profile (side profile is hardly shown and not worth mentioning) Slim back profile Best climb / dive speed. *Strongest velocity in reverse thrust (hardly an advantage) - For me, its a great thing while flying the Scythe, keeping Distance is key. *Brakes [does it have the best brakes?] - i can AB into a Reverse, breaking hard before turning, making it a quite fluid Motion and offsets the Inertia Disadvantage a tiny bit. *Hover [Is this even an advantage for A2A combat?] - i think its a Disadvantage for A2A, but it might depend on Playstyle. Disadvantages Huge 'Top-Down' Profile - Can be offset by a good Pilot keeping its Distance, and is needed, seeing how small the Front Hitbox is. Slowest Nosegun TTK - Isnt it almost the same as the Mosquito? Might even be the same, accounting for the Velocity. Different without taking Velocity into account is what? 0.03 Sec? No inertia - Yes, i hate it. But as i said, Playstyle. I know some Terrain Huggers that would kill me, if i would be the Reason they implement Inertia for the Scythe. Slowest forced Descent - Hover - Never just Hover. Always Ascend or Descend. *Reliant on V-thrust for velocity - Aim, Not a big deal Slowest Aircraft when combining cruisng speed and AB speed - Yes. Always said, to be in line between Reaver and Mosquito, the Scythe should have in between Stats. Its not the case for the Speed. The Scythe has one of the best Perks for Hover Fights. Its unbelievable slim Front. If you are a good Pilot and keep your Distance, you are very hard to hit. Hover is not a Disadvantage as long as you use your Ascend/Descend Keys. The Descend is just a few km/h slower. The better Brakes do allow a nice Afterburner into Reverse Maneuver that i couldnt reproduce with the Reaver. Its Non-Inertia can be a good thing as much as a bad thing. That really depends on Playstyle. There are Situations where breaking without Turning can be quite useful, especially with the Non-Inertia around Terrain. Depends on what kind of Pilot you are. Mostly using Terrain or putting up a straight fight. Even more asymmetric Balance they cant handle? Im not sure. Roll Rate can help aquiring your Target, at least it does for me. Yaw is not sufficient for me. Id rather have same Stats for all ESFs. But good Luck changing something to the better.
Yellow is my writing. If I can get ppl to say "drop hover and give us roll rate" and have not only scythe pilots say that but mossy / reaver pilots as well, I'll be happy.
As a Mossy pilot, I just want to say that the higher cruise speed is a overrated advantage. The Reaver has ~30 KPH higher speed with afterburners, and a Scythe has equivelent afterburner speed, which basically means you won't be escaping them. Then again, you generally won't escape any (good) ESF pilot on your tail, because the difference in speeds even with afterburners isn't so much that you will outrun them in a short period of time. Typically it takes allies or a warpgate to dissuade a chaser from continuing to chase.
At least it's an advantage for A2A. Scythe doesn't get any A2A perks. And don't say "wtb brakes?" because thats only better if your not pitching. If you brake in a straight line, your a dead man.
The situation is opposite on Mattherson. A decent amount of high skilled pilots either went to NC or created NC alts and roll together.
I really appreciate your long Answer, but if i continue doing the same, it will be an infinite circle. So just a few Things: First, for me, its not about Reaver vs X, its about the Fact that a lot of ESF Pilots complain about the Reaver, but it has exactly the same amount of Pros and Cons that every other ESF has, except for the Hitbox, which is just plain larger. Even a AB Burst will cost you enough AB Fuel to make a Difference. The AB into Reverse is not incorrect. I dont want to say i invented it, i just developed it for myself. Showing your Belly in a Scythe is absolutely worst case, so i was looking how i can turn into a Reverse without Rolling 90° and turning like a Reaver does. Essentially, you are Afterburning with Yaw, Hardbraking while Yawing, and going straight into a sideway reverse. Hard to explain, but it will allow you to go into Reverse without showing your Belly for more than a Moment. With that kind of Move, you can compensate your Top/Bottom Hitbox and Non-Inertia quite good, and i cant do the same with the Reaver, because you need that straight braking without turning. Thats why in this case, its good thing. TTK is important, but in a good Hover Duel, you wont Burst your Enemy down with one Magazine, so having to reload less and doing 20% more Damage is not worse in the long run. Keeping Distance as a Scythe: Dont know about you, but if you ask some of the really good Reaver/Mosquito Pilots, they will tell you that there are Scythe Pilots that keep Distance with their Reverse AB, and most of the time, they are tough Enemies. I have about ten times more playtime in the scythe than in the Reaver or Mosquito, and it always helped me a lot to keep Distance. Nothing worse than a hugging Reaver. (And Reaver Pilots say, Scythes are the ones who like to ram..) Rotary Velocity of the Hailstorm was 550m/s, if i recall correctly, while Reaver and Mosquito both run at 650m/s. I was never happy with the crappy Velocity, because you had to lead unbelievably high if a Reaver burned up above you in the sky. always felt like shooting arrows. *g* Id say, if the Reaver has 20% Burst DPS and the Mosquito 20% more Damage per Magazine, 750m/s Velocity for the Scythe would be okay. Its not even 20% more, but Velocity is very valuable and it also has a shorter Reload. Hugging Terrain with a Scythe is a lot easier because of the Non-Inertia. Flying in tight Spots like Bridges, Bases, Trees and such is hardly doable at high Speeds with the other two ESFs. Scythes could need some help, bringing Cruise Speed and VThrust in between Reaver and Mosquito would be a good thing, not sure about the Maneuverability and how SOE thinks about it. In the End, every ESF has Pros and Cons, which evens them out quite nice, except for the Hitbox.
My main arguement against the reaver is that the "cons" are not really cons and can be overcome with simple things like a burst of AB.
This is what I'm worried about as a scythe pilot. In the hands of an average pilot, the reaver is the worst esf, and the mossie the best. But the reaver has the highest skill ceiling, a highly skilled reaver pilot will almost always win a dogfight against an equally skilled esf pilot in a mossie or scythe. When using the reverse maneuver with rank 3 hover airframe, the reaver also out maneuvers everything, and has the fastest afterburner. I can keep up with mossies just fine in dogfights and it honestly feels pretty even, maybe I actually have a slight advantage in my scythe with hover airframe in terms of maneuverability when I'm using afterburners. But these reavers get on my tail and I CAN... NOT... SHAKE THEM. I can't even twist around to SEE them before they kill me, because they can outmaneuver me so well, and these reaver pilots with excellent aim take me down far, far faster than any mossie pilots. With the damage buff this makes me even more worried... honestly I don't know if these changes were such a good idea without some tweaking to the maneuverability also, but I'll wait and see to judge.
