Rotary TTK Comparison

Discussion in 'Test Server: Discussion' started by Spadar, Jul 15, 2013.

  1. Spadar

    Despite what seems to be the case through calculations, in-game the ESFs appear to have the exact same TTK between all three rotaries with 2.5 seconds on the money. I calculated it from the first shot fired to the first frame that the ESF turns to debris but before the debris animation played.

    I plan on doing another test at range before I make any decisions as to how I feel about the current changes.
    • Up x 2
  2. Garakan

    Something seems to be wrong.
    TTK is the same and the Hailstorms Velocity is at 800m/s.
    Maybe its an old Testbuild?
  3. Riku

    I see the scythe's victim blow up last. underpowered buff plx nurf the oth3rz
    Nah jk. Either nerf Scythe damage per round just by a little, or the velocity by 50 (given it REALLY is at 800!?) imo.
  4. Kapernum

    Strange how we get different results.

    You can download the video if you want and go through frame by frame differences. I'm not really an expert on this.
  5. Stigma

    Nice work kap. seems you sent those clips to a wrong address or something because I never received them.

    If we in addition to this info could get a handle on how many bullets each gun needs to kill an ESF (short range) then that would be awesome. Raw TTK is important, but how much you can miss and still kill the enemy in a typical ambush scenario is very important too. I mean, doing the math on this would be trivial, but at this point im not sure that I trust the patchnotes to be accurate with the actual changes - because that obviously isn't always the case.

  6. DashRendar

    Yeah I'm not sure what to think about these changes yet man :(

    From reading the patch notes: YES omg the Reaver is still the best A2A by a good margin! You get ALL the SCs.

    From testing in the Test Server: Uhmm, this Vortek feels nerfed, and MY ACTUAL GOD that Mossie rotary is strong now...

    Live Server: TR < VS < NC
    Test Server: NC = VS < TR

    TR always seems to be an outlier lately, with a clear advantage.
  7. Insolence

    Idk - Rudelord still smashed my face in when I fought him in my mossie the first two times, and we each killed each other the third.

    Roz & I killed each other, but I was expecting to win outright because he is rusty.

    It's really hard to say with such a small sample size of dogfights. I don't know that we'll really be sure on balance until these changes hit Live.
  8. MGP

    I wouldn't jump to conclusions right away. Measuring raw DPS on stationary targets in the VR tells very little if anything about actual combat usability. I can 1-shoot VR dummies all day with bolt-action rifle. Does that make the bolt action OP? Hardly. I can obliterate VR infantry with Scattercannon MAX with extreme ease. Does this means what NC MAX is OP? Doubtful.
    Same for rotaries. I want to see actual combat usage, before i can judge.
    If you want my personal opinion, i think what VS are getting the best gun: No bullet drop, fast reloads and fast bullets. Sounds scary. But we'll see.

    Anyway, i think i see where devs are doing with rotaries and i like that. I guess they want to make each gun unique in combat usage, so rules of engagement with M18 and with Vortek will be completely different. I only hope they won't **** up the synergy of gun with a ESF, and the gun's "traits" will add to ESF "traits". Unless someone might end up with a gun which suits different aircraft better (example: Prowler Vulcan + Lockdown just don't work. You need to pick one or the other. Bad design decision).
    • Up x 1
  9. Insolence

    This video right here is what I was afraid of with the high damage that the Vortek has:

    If a reaver pilot gets 1 solid opening, even if it's just for a second, they will destroy you.
  10. DashRendar

    Well, it's just more or less using the same logic that's been used against the Vortek lately. On Test right now, all with maximum mag upgrades (because stock state is sort of irrelevant):

    Reaver: kills with 8 left in mag
    Scythe: kills with 11 left in mag
    Mosquito: kills wih 22 left in mag???

    Now I don't have any issue with the Reaver/Scythe balance at all, and the numbers don't concern me, that's about expected for such a high damage per shot weapon like the Vortek. I'm ok with the Mosquito having something between 12-15 shots left over the others because of its lower damage per shot, but why is there such a large gap between the Mossie and other two though? Seriously, I don't think that's ok? Even in order for this to work, the Mossie TTK needs to be the highest of the three, but in every calculation that's been done, the Mossie has been between the Reaver and Scythe as far as TTK goes, when it should be a logical step higher than the Scythe relative to the Reaver. The only thing that balances this is that the Mossie needs to actually land more shots than the Reaver to kill, but with such a substantial increase to shots in mag over the other two, that's really hardly an issue anymore... The M18 is also the most damaging to armor because of the extra shots in mag, and that makes no sense either.
  11. Insolence

    And I don't think it's OK for the Vortek to deal 500dmg/shot whereas the M18 only deals 315. I guess we're even?
    • Up x 4
  12. yama

    Lets add another video to the mix:

  13. DashRendar

    If we calculate the percentage of shots left in mag relative to full mag capacity:

    8/33 = .2424 = 24%
    11/45 = .2444 = 24%
    22/62 = .3548 = 36%

    The Mossie has too many shots in mag relative to how much damage it does per shot, this is a straight buff to the Mossie, and more TR favoritism and buffing of the "TR can do everything!" theme that's been popping up lately. As I said this also affects vs. armor performance because the Mossie is capable of a lot more damage output than the other two. If the new rotary were balanced according to how the Reaver/Scythe are balanced relative to each other, this is how it would look like:

    14/54 = .2592 = 26%

    And that's even a bit generous, follows the trait, and still favoring the TR. These numbers are using a stock mag capacity of 42 rounds, and keeping the mag upgrade of 12 rounds, for a total of 54 rounds. Or we can keep the current mag sizes and drop the damage even further, but, I don't think the TR would like that very much... and that would also be unfair to the Mossie relative to the other two. The best way to fix this is just by cutting the mag size and leaving everything else the same.
    • Up x 1
  14. TheSmilies

    This is almost the same argument TR pilots used against the current vortek, fastest TTK and lowest required accuracy to one mag. Now NC and TR each have one of the traits, rather than one weapon having both.
  15. DashRendar

    No, it's the same exact argument, but the Vortek lost that didn't it? The Mossie now has that, and seemingly even moreso than the Vortek did before? So if it's too OP for NC to have, why is it ok for TR to have? In my balance suggestion above, the TR would still have the easier one clip trait, but to less of a comical extent that it has right now. My argument is not the premise, the premise actually fits TR trait quite well, it's the extent. It's too much.
  16. Insolence

    You seem to have mastered the art of selective reading. It is hardly the exact same argument because the mossie does not have an advantage in TTK when compared to the other ESF's.

    As Smilies pointed out, the Reaver had both the mag size + damage, now it just has the damage and we have the mag size. Also don't forget that even with these changes the Reaver can still one clip very easily, which is something the mossie never had before this point.
    • Up x 2
  17. TheSmilies

    It would be the exact same argument if the M18 had the fastest TTK AND lowest hit requirements. As it stands on the test server, the Vortek remains as the fastest TTKing air weapon. The current vortek is OP because it has the fastest TTK, lowest accuracy requirement, the same reload speed, and was tied for fastest bullet velocity.

    If you were to look exclusively at damage/mag, then yes, the M18 rotary is OP. But there are other traits to the rotaries now. Reload time, falloff damage, and bullet velocity all change how the weapons will operate. Ignoring 3/4 characteristics of rotaries doesn't make any sense. Yes the M18 has high damage/mag, but has a longer TTK, higher reload time, more dropoff, and similar bullet velocity to the new vortek.
    • Up x 1
  18. DashRendar

    Yeah but my point is, maybe the Reaver SHOULD be clearly OP at A2A dogfighting, because it's really very poor at everything else where the Mossie is not. Less shots landed to kill is still a good trait though, so I'll have to see how this pans out after more testing. I'd like to hear more from Spadar as well.
  19. Spadar

    Damage/Shot isn't particularly important though? What's the difference if you fire one 500 damage shot every second, or one 250 damage shot every half second? Especially when magazine size/ammo capacity values are proportional. It still takes them the same amount of time to kill you. The timeframes that you have on target are short, but not short enough to make single shot damage a deciding factor.
  20. Insolence

    Except it is. Often times in dogfights you will only land one shot while the enemy is moving; every bullet counts. When you have one ESF that has much more dmg per bullet than the others, then dmg/shot starts to matter.
    • Up x 1