please get rid of the scaleform ui menus!

Discussion in 'Player Support' started by BlackDove, May 15, 2014.

  1. Lavans


    Sigh

    What I get is that PS2 behaves just like any other 3d application at stock settings. If you want something to blame, then blame the drivers for not locking a component's Power Target. It's the driver's responsibility to determine what games should get elevated Power Targets, not the game, and not the user. If a card overheats with stock settings and untouched drivers, then you have a faulty component, not a faulty game.
  2. DerpyHD

    I need to have my GPU (GTX 780), which is liquid cooled I might add, under clocked to about 96% of its original to be able to play Planet side without my drivers always crashing. Almost every time I open the map screen in a battle I black-screen, the drivers crash, then the game comes back. This has been happening for quite a while and is the only game that does this. I don't think that its a coincidence that this only happens when the map screen is opened while the card is at a fair load, this suggests that the map is taking up a lot more power than it should.

    -How could SOE miss something this significant in their 'Optimisation Update'?
  3. Lavans


    That's an issue with the driver kernel, which has been a notorious issue the last few issues ever since Nvidia introduced shadowplay. Apparently the latest driver release corrects the problem.
  4. Lavans

    Here's a couple screen shots of other games with stock settings to clearly demonstrate that a jump in power target is perfectly normal behavior.

    Metro 2033
    http://i.imgur.com/dLV8hhS.jpg - Power is at ~74%
    http://i.imgur.com/8XfSqcY.jpg - Jumps to ~105%

    League of Legends
    http://i.imgur.com/izVRwbi.jpg - Power is at ~58%
    http://i.imgur.com/1mGaIQz.jpg - Jumps to ~107%

    WATCH OUT! POWER VIRUS!!!

    Seriously though, there is something that all games have in common. When Power spikes, the GPU voltage is lower than when the Power is at "normal" levels. Hmm...
    • Up x 1
  5. BlackDove

    The driver and GPU boost work fine unless you give the GPU a workload that, through power virus like code, loads the GPU to well beyond 100% TDP, which results in it throttling and spiking, like Dragams does AT STOCK power target and clocks!

    That is NOT the typical behavior of a 3D game, even a demanding one, AT ALL.

    THAT is the issue. I am not and have not been overheating. Overheating is not the underlying issue. Its a SYMPTOM for some other users. I am addressing the CAUSE.
  6. Lavans


    See my above post

    Also, it's not up to you to decide what game is demanding and what game isn't. Get off your high horse and start actually contributing to the thread.
    • Up x 1
  7. Dragam

    Okay, ive now taken screenshots at stock speed aswell (the previous was with OC Applied), to give an idea how they consume power on MY computer.

    Planetside 2 stock - youll notice the gpu cant load to 100%, cause the Card is already at the power limit
    http://i.imgur.com/as3R8PU.jpg
    Planetside 2 OC - average TDP in the 130's, with spikes up to 180 TDP !
    http://i.imgur.com/J61Quh2.jpg

    Skyrim stock
    http://i.imgur.com/4yhVHZl.jpg
    Skyrim OC
    http://i.imgur.com/dpRORpF.jpg

    Crysis stock
    http://i.imgur.com/AQIxUQN.jpg
    Crysis OC
    http://i.imgur.com/3VNz4XN.jpg

    BF4 stock
    http://i.imgur.com/O05gWaK.jpg
    BF4 OC
    http://i.imgur.com/jhHicC3.jpg

    GTA 4 stock
    http://i.imgur.com/4lqkizV.jpg
    GTA 4 OC
    http://i.imgur.com/5QTxrF4.jpg


    The tendancy is very clear : other games at stock settings have no issues fully loading, and staying within the stock TDP limits, unlike Planetside 2, which cant load to 100% on the gpu core, when the power limit is set to 100%.
    Furthermore, all the other games when OC'ed only used 10 to 20 % more TDP, where as Planetside 2 will use a whooping 40% more! (this is excluding any power spikes)

    All the above is ofc observations made on my computer, and could vary alot on other systems.
    • Up x 1
  8. Lavans


    Would it be possible to take another shot of the PS2 with OC settings, but with SLI disabled?

    There is something I'm noticing, which is a trend on my system too.

    When the Power Target is above 100%, the voltage is generally lower when the Power Target is at 90%.

    If you look at my previous video showing PS2 idling at the terminal window, it goes from 80% power @ 1.175v, all the way to 103% power @ 1.150v.

    Looking at your Skyrim shots, for example, you'll notice that at stock its running at 98% power and 1.096v, but the overclock is running at 103/111% power and 1.016v.

    It's pretty clear this is the standard behavior for boost technology - up the power when the voltage is low. However, out of 8 sets of screen shots between me and you, there is only 1 set of screen shots that does not show this behavior - your PS2 stock vs OC, and I'm willing to bet its because SLI is disabled in the stock screenshot as opposed to the OC screenshot.

    I say this because there is no PS2 SLI profile, and is likely defaulting to AFR2, which is notorious for being a more aggressive form of SLI than anything else.
    • Up x 1
  9. BlackDove

    I am pretty sure i have contributed plenty. I have clearly described the issue and even come up with a hopefully temporary fix(have been using it for over a year now) to ASSIST people who have had this well known issue.

    Dragam has observed what a lot of others, including myself, have.

    Planetside 2 loads GPUs in an atypical way, similarly to the way that OCCT and Furmark no longer can(because Nvidia and AMD specifically throttle when they detect their code).

    They dont throttle improperly coded scaleform ui code however. That could contain a power virus type code which would NOT be blocked.

    Personal observations on my setup reveal what Dragam has been posting as well: PS2 exceeds TDP at stock clocks despite not even utilizing the GPU 100%.

    With my reduced power target actual utilization is usually 50% EVEN ON ALL ULTRA. Since im always CPU limited and can easily maintain 60fps when the CPU limitation isnt a factor, with a 6000m render distance and high quality texture filtering in the drivers, i can conclude that PS2 IS NOT a graphically demanding game. It doesnt even use real antialising!

    Removing the HUD has also been known for a long time to increase performance, also indicating that a simplistic 2D HUD has code that unnecessarily loads the GPU.

    All of these observations(including your own, despite trying to prove the opposite) lead to the conclusion that it is likely an issue with the scaleform ui menus loading the GPU in a power virus like way.

    Exceeding TDP significantly without actually utilizing it to do work is EXACTLY what power viruses are designed to do!

    The fact that changing 3D settings doesnt change performance significantly for a lot of people is further evidence that its not the 3D game elements but the 2D UI elements that are the most demanding aspect of PS2.

    That shouldnt be the case and it has needed to be fixed for well over a year.
  10. Lavans

    Really? Because all I see is you yapping your mouth. You're too afraid to revert your neutered GPU back to stock settings to contribute any sort of GPU related behavior, not just in PS2, but all other games as well


    My observations show that every game I have tested shows consistent results between 4 different games. So, either all 4 games act as a "power virus" and I should run AVG, or it's typical behavior despite what you want to believe.




    If scaleform is a "power virus", then games that run it wouldn't throttle when the GPU gets too hot. However, they do, including PS2. So...go on, tell me more. Further prove my point that you want there to be an issue with PS2.
  11. BlackDove

    I love when people have to resort to personal insults to make their "point".

    Actually observing my GPU excessive load without actual utilization is WHY i wont put my power target above 80% when i play PS2 and why i made the thread LOL.

    Your observations and Dragams also indicate that PS2 loads your GPUs beyond 100% TDP at stock power target settings, despite the GPU being nowhere near 100% utilization.

    Hmm beyond 100% TDP at less than 75% utilization sounds well optimized right? Totally normal and ALL GAMES exhibit this behavior?

    Actually ive only found a few instances of power viruses in the 100+ i own. Blacklight Retribution has a scaleform ui logon screen(or it did when i last played) that would do exactly what the menus in PS2 do. Not all the menus but one particular bugged one did.

    Scaleform UI itself IS NOT a power virus and not all games that use it exhibit this behavior. Its only specific games or specific bugged menus that exhibit this behavior, regardless of framerate limit.

    You can make a GPU boost by giving it a game workload. Play Tomb Raider or Trime 2 with super sampling and youll see TDP AND utilization climb. You wont typically see a demanding game exceed TDP and be at 50% utilization.

    And if i wamted there to continue to be an issue i wouldnt have made a thread describing it and asking them to fix it. Your statement is illogical.

    Just like its illogical to think its normal for a game to load a GPU beyond 100% TDP when its only half utilized doing actual work! Whats the rest of the GPU so busy with if its half used but exceeding its TDP?

    Oh wait that answers your "why do they throttle if theyre power viruses" question.

    Power viruses get throttled before they can achieve 100% GPU utilization BECAUSE THEY EXCEED THE TDP LIMIT and cause the self protection in every modern CPU and GPU to kick in.

    Power viruses cant magically bypass throttling. They just cause the GPU to produce excessive heat by exceeding TDP and keeping it maxed out to the extent it can. That would result in hardware failure for some, excessive power consumption and heat production for others, the GPU being maxed out without doing NEARLY as much USEFUL work as it could without the power virus code loading it.

    Exactly like the menus in PS2. Thank you for proving my point AGAIN!
  12. Lavans

    I love how you ignore the fact that when the drivers scale the power above 100%, the voltage is low. If, by your logic, there was a power virus, then the voltage would be incresed as well.

    Also, using the term TDP instead of Power Target makes it sound like you have no idea what you are talking about. TDP is a mechanical unit of measurement that describes how many watts a cooler can dissipate before overheating. Power Target is a mechanic introduced with boost technology to help maximize performance when there is headroom to do so. Its not uncommon for drivers to set a heightened Power Target in low utilization because the card is drawing less power at that time.
  13. Dragam

    Lavans : Im affraid you were looking at the vcore for my cpu (the last line in my info is all cpu info), but the fault is on my part, as i didnt specify that.

    The voltage is 1.175 when the power limit and heat allows it - going above 70c will lower the voltage to 1.150, and going above power limit will lower voltage alot, as you can see by the following screenshots, where ive added gpu voltage info:

    Planetside 2 with sli and stock settings
    http://i.imgur.com/KsSwWgJ.jpg

    Planetside 2 with sli and OC (yes, its showing 149% power usage!)
    http://i.imgur.com/tMhpEF0.jpg

    Planetside 2 without sli and stock settings
    http://i.imgur.com/SWkZHtI.jpg

    Planetside 2 without sli and OC
    http://i.imgur.com/ZC056m4.jpg


    I actually hadnt thought about the voltages before... but now that i think about it, the lowered voltage due to the 100% power limit, could be causing the crashing people experience, if they have chips that reqruire a bit more voltage to stay stabile.
  14. BlackDove

    First part. Go look up how Nvidia GPU Boost and GPU Boost 2.0 work. Im not going to explain it tonight. Maybe in the morning.

    Second part. Wow.

    The Thermal Design Power specification is not a unit at all! Its a POWER RATING which states the typical amount of power that a chip will dissipate!

    The fact that we are discussing GPUs that are exceeding their TDP by a significant amount while being under utilized at a 100% power target should indicate something to you.

    The fact that those types of loads are common in power viruses, and are the reason Nvidia and AMD blocked purpose built power viruses like Furmark, because of the damage they could do by overloading a GPU with boost and a configurable power target should say something as well!
  15. Lavans

    Bah, I can't see your screenshots (currently at work and my phone sucks, lol).

    But yeah, power target is meant to not only improve framerate, but stabilize it as well. Knowing that, it would make sense for it to exceed 100% in low usage and voltage situations in a 3d accelerated program. This would explain why PS2, despite not being considered as a taxing game, will boost more frequently than games like Crysis and BF

    When you mention crashes, are you referring to the recent crashes on a system with a Nvidia GPU, or in general?
    A lot of the crashes recently in systems with a Nvidia GPU is actually caused by a bad batch of drivers. They started circulating when Nvidia. Released shadowplay, and was just recently rectified. If you mean in general, then its possible that the GPU is freaking out due to changes in voltages, but the drivers usually recover themselves. Its interesting to think about though. Low voltage crashes hasn't been a problem in a long time.
  16. FOXOsvk

    Oh wow, I thought everyone knew about this. So devs don't even recognize this as an issue?
    Same thing here. When I play I have like 40-60% GPU usage. Whenever I open "Character select screen", my usage go slowly up to 100% in like 20 seconds. I don´t know if it has changed, since all my overlays have stopped working after last update (Is it just me?), so I can´t monitor GPU usage in game anymore. I never get over 73°C, so I'm safe, but still... It is obvious that this should not happen. 2D HUD can't take more GPU resources than the whole game, ridiculous.
    Most people don't even pay attention to that kind of things. I think they are happy if they can at least run it without crashing.

    And I hate how SOE thinks that players are just rude and ignorant. It was the same situation with the ping issues not so long time ago. "There is no such problem." ,"Problem is on your side", "It must be your ISP"... So yeah. But I'm glad they have fixed it. :rolleyes:
  17. schlotz

    its just you. MSI Afterburner and TS3 overlays still working for me^^
  18. Dragam

    Lavans :

    Well... crashes for systems using boost technology. As we know, it varies a great deal from chip to chip, how much voltage they need to operate at varies clock frequencies.

    So lets take this example : the gpu has a quite power hungry chip, which needs atleast 1.150 voltage, for the gpu to remain stabile when loaded 100%.
    In most games, this wont be an issue, as the voltage will always be atleast 1.150, if the power limit isnt breached... but then in planetside 2, which regularly exceeds the stock 100% power limit (even with stock clocks), the voltage gets lowered, to as low as 1.025... getting the voltage lowered that much could very well make alot chips unstabile, and crash the graphics driver and / or the entire system.
  19. Lavans

    Dragram - I hear what you're saying. Such a scenario sounds odd to me if it were to ever happen during actual gaming. Power stages usually have a pre determined voltage range set by the GPU BIOS. Ever since the GTX 6 series, its been impossible to change these ranges unless you hard mod the video card, or have a custom card that does not have a regulator. Also, if a bad voltage range was flashed to the GPU, then the user would see crashes in more games than just PS2.
  20. Dragam

    Lavans : that is not entirely correct - if you know how to mod a bios, then you can also change all values within the various power steps (as i have done). The only thing i cannot change, is the voltage to above 1.212 unless i, as you say, hard mod it.

    But regarding stock voltages - the stock voltage for a powered up 680 without boost activated is 1.087 - if the power limit is exceeded, then the boost wont activate, and the voltage will remain at 1.087... and loaded 100% at 1.087v, even if it is only with 1006 mhz, could cause issues on alot of chips i suspect.

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