please get rid of the scaleform ui menus!

Discussion in 'Player Support' started by BlackDove, May 15, 2014.

  1. BlackDove

    Been doing some research and it seems like this flash type 2D menu system is largely responsible for the map and menus excessively loading the GPU and causing massive stutter going back to launch.

    Dont believe me? Go google "scaleform ui overheat" and read!

    There have been countless threads for over a year about the map and menus lagging and excessively loading and overheating peoples GPUs. Just ditch it already and use something better!
    • Up x 5
  2. Octiceps

    "Sorry, too much work to build our own custom UI engine. Scaleform GFx allows us to author assets in Adobe Flash and import them directly into the game. Easy peasy, performance be damned. We've got more 'important' things to worry about, you know. If the menus and HUD make you lag, get better hardware, preferrably from our partners Nvidia and Intel 'cause they pay us.

    P.S. We don't give two sh*ts about overheating you graphics cards. Put them under water or something, jeez."

    -SOE
    • Up x 13
  3. BlackDove

    Lol well said. Even an ancient game like TF2 looks better and the HUD isnt a power virus.

    It drives me insane that this seems to be the root of all the power virus menus and maps since launch.

    Al the threads with peoples GPUs overheating being told its "dust" or that they need better cooling were simply because the menus apparently run a code that works like Furmark or Catzilla.

    OMFG? How about operation get rid of the bad 2D flash based garbage ui?

    This is the only game that requires me to underclock my Gigabyte WindForce 660ti(not exactly a GPU prone to overheating like a GF100).

    Most games with 8xMSAA or REAL ANTIALIASING and 16x anisotropic with everything on ultra cant make my GPU get WARM much less load it the way the menus or map in PS2 do.

    Quick, someone go post this on reddit so it gets noticed!
    • Up x 4
  4. Smagjus

    Well, why should they?

    I agree that the UI code obviously needs a lot of optimization - I get 5FPS more when disabling it. But overheating is a problem on the user's end. What are your temps on the windforce?

    Btw the most relevant source regarding scaleform according to Google is this exact topic.
    • Up x 2
  5. Jautis

    Exactly.
    • Up x 1
  6. Octiceps

    The UI is a power virus like FurMark/Kombustor/OCCT which means it puts an unrealistic load on your GPU causing much greater heat and power consumption than any real-world workload or game ever could.
    • Up x 2
  7. Octiceps

    Honestly, I don't know why the UI in this game is so heavy. I was just testing Deus Ex: Human Revolution, another game with a very fancy UI which makes extensive use of Scaleform GFx for its interfaces, menus, and HUD, and it doesn't impact my FPS or GPU usage at all when I, for example, press TAB and bring up the fullscreen game menu/inventory.
  8. KariSan

    Are we talking about something similar to Autodesk Scaleform Menu Kit? heh. there's information about background loads and cpu/gpu consumption. It's like they created a full frame flash animation for each area and didn't optimise it tbh. Reducing loads isn't really that hard to change/lower the quantity, just need to put it on the list of things that need polishing. I wonder how this will be managed considering the 10 year life plan for PS2 is.
    Autodesk Scaleform Menu Kit
  9. Octiceps

    Scaleform GFx and yeah it's owned by Autodesk.

    There have been lengthy discussions since launch about the ridiculous bloat of this game's GUI and while it was improved slightly (visually stripped down a lot) with O:MFG, like the rest of the game's optimization there is still quite a ways to go. I've noticed that the fullscreen menus load GPU like crazy while HUD is more CPU. In both cases performance is negatively impacted quite a bit, sometimes making the difference between a playable and unplayable experience. For example, turning off HUD might get me 45 FPS instead of 30, or 60 instead of 45, along with a massive reduction in freeze frames. It's just too bad that I can't play without the HUD for strategic and competitive reasons.

    And BTW this problem isn't unique to this game. There are a lot of other games such as WoT, EVE, and TERA with Adobe Flash UI's built using Scaleform that suffer from the same issue.
    • Up x 1
  10. BlackDove

    Its usually about 60-65C in PS2 but i have a well cooled PC and an aggressive fan curve.

    Do more googling. Other games that use it have power virus menu issues as well.

    Not everyone has a PC as well cooled as mine, and thete have been many overheating threads.
  11. BlackDove

    https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2...overheating-my-gpu.135782/page-3#post-1974074

    Read the part about what Nvidia has to say about power virus code, and being able to overload even well cooled GPUs beyond 100%TDP.

    The menus and HUD are why i keepy GPU from ever boosting, because if you let it, and its well cooled it will constantly be at its voltage limit!

    Heres a few more threads out of many with the 2D menus and maps overheating their computer.



    https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2...-store-page-also-spikes-gpu-temps-wtf.125209/

    http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/98-gpu-load-character-selection-screen.61234/

    http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/.../gpu-temp-increases-after-last-update.117410/


    http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/...e-gpu-loading-and-cant-disable-shadows.65684/

    http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/beware-of-99-gpu-load-while-idle.54532/
  12. turtlebasic

    I agree BlackDove, I have noticed that PS2 runs hotter by at least 15oC than any other game/program I use. :/
  13. Dragam

    Turtlebasic : but is that in the map / menu, or while actually playing?

    Cause if its while playing, its due to the fact that PS2 for some reason uses alot more watt on your gpu, than other games.

    My Cards at stock speed need 125% TDP to load 100% in planetside 2, where other games only need 100 % TDP to load 100%. When 10% overclocked, the TDP usage in planetside 2 will go as high as 145 % !
  14. sagolsun


    Scaleform is the de-facto UI solution for games. From Skyrim to Crysis, the fancy UI is done by scaleform.

    Why?

    Without scaleform development time for any UI feature would take about five times as long, the game would crash twice as often, the UI would look samey and bland and if some major changes occur, you'd end up trying to jam a square peg down a round hole (because there's not enough money or manpower to do otherwise)

    You'd probably end up with tightly coupled code so that major UI changes would entail major core engine changes. More development time, more crashes, more bugs, uglier UI, slower rollout of features.

    Scaleform sucks, but it sucks less than the alternative. Trust me.
    • Up x 2
  15. sagolsun


    Okay, find me a better middleware lib with stuff like blending modes and displaylist support.

    Oh yeah, and make sure it has decent font rendering support and embedding while you're at it.
    • Up x 1
  16. BlackDove

    Ok maybe the thread title should be "fix the power virus code in the improperly implemented and over used scaleform UI".

    I dont think that would fit and it doesnt let me edit it.

    And i guess some games can have scaleform menus that use it and dont crash or behave like Furmark. So theu could fix the menus since youresaying its impossible for a huge developer like SOE to make their own.

    The HUD looks worse than stuff from the 1990s and you mean they couldnt do something with it to make it perform better?

    This game doesnt even use real anti aliasing and it runs terrible because of the 2D elements. Do you agree they need to get rid of the power virus in the map menus and HUD?
  17. BlackDove

    Thats an excellent example of how power virus code works. If youre at 145% TDP you should reduce your power target by 20-30%.

    Im pretty sure thats why my 560ti failed with stock clocks and default fan curve right after i started playing PS2.

    The people in a lot of threads where someone complains about overheating get told that software, much less a game, cant damage hardware, but it can and does.

    Its not dust or a cheap setup in a lot of cases. Its the menus loading peoples GPUs to beyond 100% of their TDP which is detrimental for a well cooled GPU that will boost itself to instability from a workload that is not what it was designed for.

    The ONLY way i can get close to the load that PS2 produces with its outdated graphics is to run a game with super sampling antialiasing on ultra.
    • Up x 1
  18. Dragam

    BlackDove : 600 series doesnt have a power target... and no, i shouldnt reduce it, even if i could, because 1 : it would mean that i couldnt load 100% on the gpu in intensive situations, 2 : i dont have any heat issues, so it doesnt matter what the TDP is.

    But no, it shouldnt be the reason that your 560 TI failed, because it should only hinder you from loading 100%, if the TDP is maxed out - it shouldnt make your gpu crash or anything.

    But you are absolutely right, that the fact that planetside 2 uses alot more TDP than the average game, would heat peoples gpu's alot more - possibly causing overheating, if ventelation isnt quite sufficient.
    • Up x 1
  19. Lavans


    This

    Between my HD4870, HD5970, GTX460M, and GTX680, I have never had any issues regarding temperatures when playing PS2. Across all 4 GPUs, temps were where they should have been. People need to stop blaming software for hardware issues and start taking care of their components.
    • Up x 1
  20. BlackDove

    600 series GPUs absolutely do use a power target as part of their whole GPU Boost technology. Heres the article.

    http://www.geforce.com//hardware/technology/gpu-boost/technology

    If the GPU is well cooled it will ramp up voltage and clocks to higher than normal, overclocking itself and exceeding its TDP.

    Thats fine for the workload of a normal game. A normal game wont load your GPU to 145% because of a 2D menu.

    A power virus is an atypical workload however. You said yourself that PS2 has your GPU at 145% TDP where as its 1 to 1 for a normal game. Thats simply not good for any GPU. Even if the silicon can sit at 100C all day the capacitors and VRM components will be excessively loaded and wear out quicker.

    Thats why all these people saying its fine are wrong. They dont understand the difference between a typical GPU workload and a power virus or how TDP is calculated.

    And if you have your AIB makers software like EVGA Precision, Gigabyte OC Guru or MSI Afterburner you can adjust power target directly. As i said i have my 660ti at 80% power target in PS2 to prevent unnecessary load.

    If the 560ti was sitting at 90C for long enough on the stock fan curve it probably contributed to its failure.

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