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Discussion in 'Light Assault' started by Atmosfear, Jul 7, 2013.

  1. Wolfwood82

    I thought I asked you to think about the big picture before you went on another useless spazz fit.... Guess you didn't read that part.

    Not going to bother arguing with you. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about, and obviously have no clue how to operate your vehicle.
  2. Aesir

    You can do the same with AV turrets, they even had one up there, those are not faction specific, you can also do the same with any lock on Launcher given the range is shorter of those ...
  3. Aesir

    I know very well how to use a Vanguard, I have no issue getting high kill streaks in the game. The issue is that you only achieve this by not playing like a Tank but like a glorified field artillery gun. I don't need a Tank for that playstyle.

    So if you are so bright, enlighten me, what is the role of a MBT in PlanetSide 2? Is it really fulfilling that given role? Is nothing else that is better or as good at it?
  4. vanu123

    C4 is the LA thing. I mean if you nerf that you nerf the class. Yes it has its uses. But C4 is what keeps it competitive since the shotgun nerf that was needed.
  5. vanu123

    Exactly you can do it with any weapon but it is a must for the lancer.
  6. Aesir

    I linked it because this get's done on a daily bases on Mattherson, to show how unfriendly towards Tanks the overall environment can be. It did not directly link it because of the Lancer. The TR and the NC are setting those AV nests up just like the VS, we only use more AV turrets or Strikers or Crows. The effect is pretty much the same with maybe a little less range.
  7. Iridar51

    You describe it like it's a bad thing. Team play should be rewarded. These guys go through the trouble of assembling a squad with heavies with proper guns, engis and whatnot, taking a good position, and all of this just to suppress a few tanks.

    If not this, then what should be effective against tanks?
    And I don't quite get this sad story about lone and vulnerable tank. Let me tell you how it is to be on the recieving end of the tank.

    As any infantry, ANY tank can kill me in a few shots with potential one shot from a ways afar, with Skyguard being the least threatening.

    If I'm LA, if I still carry C4 with me (meaning, I haven't spent in something unrelated) I maybe can kill that tank, with grave risk to myself. If I miss or get spotted on approach, I'll most likely die.

    If I'm engineer, I can't do anything cuz I don't carry AV turret nor AV mines. I'm not a threat, yet any tank can kill me all the same.

    If I'm infiltrator, I can't do anything, same as engineer. Perhaps, a little more safe cuz of cloak.

    If I'm Medic, same as others. No tank pilot is stupid enough to let me just run to him.

    If I'm o mighty heavy assault, I can mildly and softly persuade the tank to vacate the area through use of the oh so imbalanced striker. That is, while still being in danger of return fire.

    One infantryman is helpless against any tank. Group of heavies with launchers can, PERHAPS, if they're smart about it, push tanks away. As it should be. Organized gameplay should be rewarded.
    Or they just the same can be one-shotted by tank rolling in and out of cover just to end one more life.

    Look, you seem like a decent kind of guy, a pilot who pilots tanks cuz he likes tanks.
    Perhaps, there is no role for you in PS2, where tanks serve two purposes: grind certs and dominate helpless infantry.
    In real warfare, tanks used to serve as tools of armored assault, suppressing and destroying enemy armored emplacements. The problem with PS2 is that there are none destroyable emplacements, except AA turrets, to some extent, AI turrets, and clearing walls of big bases.

    In real world, tanks soften and supress enemy defenses so infantry can move in. In PS2 infantry has to go in and destroy generators so tanks can move in.
  8. Aesir

    You make it sound like Tanks actually take some effort to be taken out. Note that this does not require you to be a LA.

    I'm against the 1/2 MBTs to, like I said I would like to see powerful Tanks that actually require you to have atleast a second guy in it to become powerful.
  9. MrGhosty

    I don't think c4 or the LA in general is that wanting for upgrades. C4 should absolutely cost resources because it can kill things easily and even someone relatively new to the class with a few basic cert upgrades can make decent use of it. The LA has one of the greatest abilities and that is the jetpack. I would like to see some utility or support additions made, but I don't consider the class broken by any stretch. LAs can get where no one else can and that gives them the upper hand, also bearing in mind that no other infantry can fly it is easy for a hovering LA to not be seen until it is too late. I just recently started using LA consistently because I had incorrectly assumed it only worked for lone wolf players and it had no merit in supporting other players. I have since learned the error of my ways. A LA can quickly and efficiently reach a point with less resistance than other classes and quickly secure a point or defend it long enough for the others to catch up. They can also scale walls of bases to pop generators or perform other actions, they are a great front line attack role.

    As for all the tank talk, I feel like Tank power will flip flop for awhile yet as it is a hard thing to balance properly. I would love more vehicle options to allow vehicle pilots to spec into roles that are maybe a bit more specialized. For example maybe they could make a radar main battle tank gun that has a primary heavy machine gun or skyguard type weapon that as an attached radar flare. Couple that with a scout radar attachment and that tank could stay towards the rear of a column and shell over the top of a base to constantly ping enemies on the radar. Another option would be a tank specializing in mine clearing and absorbing a lot of explosive damage at the cost of not having a terribly powerful gun. I think all the vehicles could benefit from being far more 'tweakable' than currently exists. I would gladly give up my ability to farm infantry for some better armor and weaponry to fight other tanks exclusively.
  10. HeadshotVictim

    It looks like this:
    What is the role of LA? Is it good in this role? Is there someone better equipped for it?
    Role: let's say: destroying tanks
    good in it? kinda... costs resources, dies often, get tanks down fast, when able to reach it
    someone better? well 1) AV-Turret (nos costs, high range, slower but safer) ; 2) HA - rocketlauncher, cost free, restockable, Tanks (initial costs, then endless amount of ammo, immune to small arms fire, landmines and the occasional whoops I just shot my RL into your face); Airplanes - initial costs, endless amount of ammo, very agile
    -> all of them have lower TTK when you look at first point of dmg dealt to tank is dead.
    true enough.

    Against a good tank driver + gunner I can score exactly 0 tank kill as LA. Tried it often enough. Alone against a 2 man vehicle. That's fine. Annoying but okay.
    Against an average tank driver I need let's say... 5 runs, until I found an angle to destroy the tank.
    4 respawns ~8 seconds each -> 24 seconds
    time to get to the tank ~ 30 seconds each -> 120 seconds
    C4 used (not exploded, due to painful, horrible DEATH!) ~4-6 (including the 2 bricks finally killing the damn thing)
    it takes for me (as a more or less average player) 144 seconds to kill a MBT. This is nearly 2 and a half minutes. (Oh, I wasted 400-600 in resources for it and fed the tanky 4 kills.)
    Is this really so bad?
    In most cases are other people around trying to kill it as well. Which makes using C4 sometimes easier sometimes harder. (Tank driver not focussed on my ->easier; looking around like a paranoid tin-foil hat guy -> harder, al LOT harder)
    • Up x 1
  11. Wolfwood82

    Fine, IMO being told something means you learn absolutely nothing about it. But you seem to insist that you are a good tank pilot because you can rack up high kill counts. I have no idea how these two points are related but whatever.

    Your idea of the tanks role is actually the role of the Harasser. The Harasser has the mobility and firepower to make quick runs in and out of enemy lines to soften up infantry emplacements and clear out enemy troops. Tanks can't do this due to their limitations on speed and maneuverability. Air often can't do this because such infantry emplacements often have good AA coverage.

    The tanks role is to essentially hold firing lines and prevent the enemy from advancing, it also moves in to mop up after Harasser operations. Harassers essentially transformed vehicle combat tactics to mimic those of infantry combat, with LA moving in to soften up enemy positions with quick strikes and HA moving in afterwards to hold the point and maintain their own front lines.

    You don't seem to like your role as a tank driver. That's probably because your using the tank as artillery because the game doesn't have a form of artillery in it (and people cry like little kids at the mere threat of it), so you are stuck playing a desperately needed role.

    What you want to see is tanks having the ability to push the front lines on their own. This should never ever be the case, believe me it was not fun in beta and it won't be any more fun now. Tanks require support from at least one other unit in order to be effective, relying purely on their armor and gunner spot is and always should be suicide.

    In real world military tactics, tank movement always followed artillery or some other preliminary assault on the targets in an attempt to soften up and expose AV units and emplacements. Either that or such advancements worked in tandem with support from air and ground units. Tanks spearheaded the advance but were always vulnerable when left alone and unsupported by infantry, particularly if caught in an urban environment or otherwise prevented from moving.

    In reality tanks as they are right now are perfect. They have the same needs and same requirements (other then fuel of course) that real world tanks have. They also have the same vulnerabilities and weaknesses.

    You don't know how to use your vanguard because you can't recognize the fact that you need to work in tandem with other units and other players in order to be effective. This is why good outfits are needed for these kinds of maneuvers. Without a good outfit and with that blind "derp let's charge with armor!" attitude that most people have, tank platoons get torn apart.
    • Up x 1
  12. Severim

    I've been playing LA as primary during alerts and find that even if I 'stockpile' C4 ahead of time (when I'm just messing around in VR not doing much) I run out of C4 before the end of an alert. I'm also a subscriber so that's including the resource buff. I see a major part of my role flanking enemies and taking out groups with c4. Without the C4 I can still flank and attack/defend from various angles, but I lose a lot of utility.
    • Up x 1
  13. Aesir

    I agree with your points however no good outfit uses Armor in larger numbers than 12 Players and even that is pretty rare, most don't even have an Armor Division. Because of it's weaknesses and limitations, Armor can anchor down lines but not as good as you make it sound, and it implies that you are sitting in the back and snipe around, ready on a moments notice to make a push.

    I've been doing this since beta as an active squad leader and like I said moving back to the old beta splash is not the solution, a LMG for your gunner along side his other secondary or 3-seated MBTs. A dedicated Tank would cut a lot of the spam by removing all those 1/2 MBTs from the field ... increasing stacking potential, which is the actual issue of Tanks, since 5 Tanks > 15 Infantry but 50 Infantry > 50 Tanks ...

    Infantry just stacks to good while remaining a good force against anything, the game needs a counter to mass Infantry, which should be mass Armor, which should be countered by mass Air. But right now mass Infantry counters everything. Tanks usually don't work alone because they can not capture/clear out stuff. I have been a Panzergrenadier in the Austrian Army, which is mechanized Infantry, running in IFVs in close tandem with MBTs.

    MBTs are used differently by other countries, Austria sends in Tanks with Infantry behind across open field shortly after scouts. Infantry only takes the lead in urban environment or works alongside Tanks in a defensive situation. I'm not ignoring that fact, but Tanks would dominate in RL across open field if operating within AA/AAA.
  14. MorganM

    ... it SHOULD have every advantage over lone wolf infantry dweeb.

    Thought it went without saying but apparently not.
  15. vanu123

    And it does.
    • Up x 1
  16. HerpTheDerp

    So... you quit because you can't pull off your stupid suicide runs 100% of the time?

    Good riddance.
  17. Wolfwood82

    Actually most countries use their tanks roughly the same. The more effective nations use them the way you described, less effective ones try to rampage across the map the way Saddam Hussein did in Desert Storm, similarly to the way you seem to want to use them in the game. Shocker that it doesn't work out so well.

    As of now, 50 tanks > 50 infantry. Sorry but it takes 2+ HAs per tank in order to effectively engage with the hope to destroy it. Unless 2 go up against every tank, the infantry will be over run pretty quick. That leaves 50 infantry (assuming they are all HA) to deal with 25 tanks, the other 25 will move in free of locks and warnings and engage the infantry from medium range where they have a far better chance of hitting. Infantry lines would be broken like a twig in that scenario.

    The only infantry that has a chance of single handedly destroying a tank is LA with 2 blocks of C4, and the odds of getting together 50 of them, laying up a suitable ambush, and engaging would still leave a large number of tanks alive while the LA would run out of ammo in the first wave, and be utterly useless.

    No matter how you slice it, tanks are fine as they are. So is C4 and so is the game. I frequently roll with an outfit that does exactly what you said outfits don't do. I know what tanks can do when used right.

    There is never one specific tactic that can work for all situations. You just have to use basic tactics and modify them to fit the situation. Right now you aren't doing that, you sound like you want to charge and break the enemy lines and unfortunately you want to use exactly the wrong vehicle for it.
    • Up x 2
  18. Kulantan

    Try a Harasser with fury, kobalt, bulldog or marauder. Alternatively a blockade sundy with bulldog+kobalt or dual furies. LAs can't C4 them, smoke stops locks, they have stupid amounts of health and kill infantry like crazy. The only problems are over committing, good tanks, mass AV turrets and not noticing discarded pizza.

    Tanks are mobile AV platforms in the current meta. They can do AI but not as well as other things. If you're using the wrong tool for the job then its your fault.
  19. Aesir

    Actually the US did the exact same against Sadam in the field and countered his Armor just with more advanced Armor in the field after the Air campain realizing that ground troops were needed. Yes A-10s probably did 50% of the work, but Abrams Tanks did "rule" the open desert ground combat. If you ignore and move around every major city and just would go for the open field, Tanks would dominate that space, which in PS2 is actually not the case since Infantry has enough range to dominate Tanks in that area.

    About stacking, Tanks and Infantry ... you get 6+ HAs or 3+ Engi turrets in the same cover as you need for one Tanks, and the AV turrets aside, Infantry does not even have collision. You can not field 50 Tanks and bring them to bear on a base! A Outpost at best can facilitate 5-6 Tanks before Tanks will run out completely of usable cover. Large bases if you encircle them with Armor you still only get around 15 to work effectively in that sort of space. While Infantry could mount all the firepower that 50 Tanks hold on the upper parts of a Tower.

    This is the issue, Tanks have collision, need over 6 times the space of 1 HA, however only have about 2-3 times the firepower, which is mainly focused to take out other Vehicles. Would be interesting to see what happens if Infantry suddenly would have collision ... people blocking each other while they try to play peek-a-boo just to get shot out of cover because the guy behind them also moved forward.

    You can effectively have the firepower to take out 50 Tanks on a single pad, while those 50 Tanks never all can be in range of that one pad because of the sheer space that would be needed. You don't even need a lot of coordination because there would be so much AV firepower that the Tanks either insta pop or barely make it behind any cover, taking space up there, blocking the next 1-3 Tanks out to use that cover, leaving them in the open to all that AV fire power. The Infantry would probably not even render right for the Tanks and counter attacking on that scale would become meaningless as a Tanker.

    This has been the case since beta, it didn't even need ESRLs or AV Mana Turrets. Ground Lock ons like SKEPs or Crows was all that you needed. Many Outfits recommended/demanded those ground lock ons to be the first thing to get. Even than when splash actually was a threat, mass Tanks already were in a pretty bad state gameplay wise. SOE should have nerfed the spam and not the Tanks by making them mandatory crewed in the first place.

    And like I said C4 on LAs is not the direct issue, C4 on every other class and the other AV options from HAs, MAXes and Engis all together are the issue, since everybody, except Infiltrators can take out Tanks. Anti Vehicle Combat should be something you need to specialize into, which is not really the case with the Engi MG turret(which is very bad anyway) being the only exception.

    Tanks are out of sync since beta and have been bouncing down the power meter since Beta with the constant nerfing and adding of more and more AV weapons, just to balance the numbers of Tanks on the field. Instead of just reducing the possible numbers with other mechanics ... Resource mean nothing and still mean nothing, I'm still able to pull more Tanks than I need if we have a Techplant and it's mechanized resource income or we fight on Esamir.
  20. Iridar51

    And all those 50 people will die from 1 shell from 1 of the 50 enemy tanks