Nanoweave affects more than just snipers. It is a nerf to NC, long ranged combat & gameplay pace

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Trysaeder, Aug 25, 2013.

  1. DeadliestMoon

    I'd rather not have quick scoping become a thing here in Planetside but at the same time I don't want to be one-shotted by some ****** 200+ meters away. BTW it seems that the only players who are perfectly content with being OHK'd by snipers are snipers themselves who expect everyone else to just be okay with it.
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  2. KnightCole

    But i lub muh nanoweave.
  3. Aegie

    I do not have to imagine because there already is a cert line that is plain 25% better than not and that is why so many people use it.

    High rank players do have a lot more experience- no way to change that.

    Usually more HP- not me, Adrenaline Pump all day, but it is not really a competitive choice. Also, that shiny 25% more health is not that hard to achieve for your main class if that is your prerogative.

    Decked out weapons- this really only seems to matter much, at least to me, with certain weapons (ACX-11 and SAW for instance) while with many weapons they do fairly well out of the box and while some things (like extended mags) are direct upgrades there are many things that do have at least some drawback here.

    Decked out skills- yes, but again, for one class this is not that difficult or time consuming to do especially if you start with Medic or Engineer then you do not even need skills to get a lot of certs, just follow the crowd and tool LMB = certs. Certs = upgrades. Part of the way PS2 works is that you can still be a good (read: competitive in some sense) player even if you are garbage at FPS.

    Decked out rides- most of which (ESF aside) any newbie can also benefit from and sometimes even benefit more from. If a BR 100 has a sweet Liberator and they pilot then the newbie sitting in the Dalton is benefiting.

    Flexibility offered by a range of utilities- this really is true, while it may not take that long to deck out one class along one setup and a few weapons for that class, it is really time consuming to do this for several classes/vehicles and of course you could have more than one setup per class/vehicle so yeah, unlocking everything is not a practical option.

    From the way I see it, once you assume that someone will put, say, 100 hours into the game- then they could have some gear/setups that are equal to that of BR 100 but only if they are both somewhat wise about how they get those certs and somewhat wise about what they do with those certs. I think that some kind of cert reset system would really help people that are somewhat new to the game and reduce the sense of "cert fatigue" that can plague new players who feel they cannot just sit back and enjoy the game yet because they need more certs.

    These things, however, are somewhat beside the point when we realize that- as I said up front- there is already a cert line that means 25% better it is called NW5 and IMO that means one of two things: either we need to 1) reduce the effectiveness of NW5 (and I have mentioned why I am not that in favor of this option) or 2) increase the effectiveness of the other options.

    Personally, I would rather they increase the effectiveness of other options because then players who think TTK is too short (or want a health crutch for 1v1 stand up fights) can have option that gives them enough health to make a difference. Meanwhile, people like me who would rather leave our chances to our mobility and shooting skills will have an option that makes enough of a difference in mobility to make an equally noticeable difference.
  4. Posse

    Well, the fact that Nanoweave is a nerf to NC is actually true, in fact it punishes higher damage lower RoF weapons because they usually have lower DPS than the lower damage higher RoF counterparts, without nanoweave the advantage of Alpha Strike compensates the lower DPS.

    Example: SAW vs CARV/Orion

    DPS = bullet damage * RoF / 60

    SAW = 200*500/60 = 1666,67
    CARV/Orion = 143*750/60 = 1787,5

    But, because of Alpha Strike, the TTK against 1000 hp enemies is the same for the 3 weapons.

    TTK = (STK-1) * 60 / RoF
    STK = HP / bullet damage (rounded up)

    So, against 1000 hp enemies the SAW needs 5 bullets to kill and the other 2 weapons need 7 bullets, meanwhile, against 1250 hp enemies, they need 7 and 9 respectively so

    TTK vs 1000 hp:

    SAW = 4*60/500 = 0,48 secs
    CARV/Orion = 6*60/750 = 0,48 secs

    Yes, the exact same TTK :eek:

    TTK vs 1250 hp

    SAW = 6*60/500 = 0,72 secs
    CARV/Orion = 8*60/750 = 0,64 secs

    So the 143/750 outclass the SAW considerably.

    But, there would certain situations where it would actually be a buff to higher damage weapons.

    Against Nanoweave 3 or 4 enemies, the Gauss SAW only requires one more bullet to kill while every other LMG requires 2 more bullets

    TTK vs 1150/1200 hp

    SAW = 5*60/500 = 0,6 secs
    CARV/Orion = 8*60/750 = 0,64 secs

    And in the case of NW3, the 167 damage weapons get a slight advantage versus 143 damage weapons, but in the long run, every nanoweave user will have nanoweave 5, so yes, it's a nerf to the NC (actually, to all high damage weapons, but NC is the one that suffers the most from it). The problem is that the weapons were designed to be balanced against 1000 hp enemies, if you change that, the balance disappears.

    The problem is that NW5 is the best option BY FAR, in fact, I wouldn't pick Flak Armor over NW even if it made you invulnerable to splash damage, and even if ASC started recharging your shield 0.5 seconds after you last received damage, I'd still pick NW5 in many situations. At this point I have to say I agree with removing Nanoweave, I'd rather have to choose between options that clearly provide advantages depending on your playstyle, besides, Nanoweave 5 makes the TTK way too long.

    Yes, I use Nanoweave but I'd support removing it (just give me back the 3k certs or so I spent on it, since I have NW5 on my HA and NW4 on every other class), sadly, using Nanoweave is the only way to stay competitive right now, if I face an equally skilled HA with Nanoweave, I have no chance to beat him if I don't use Nanoweave.
  5. Vaphell

    but it's only 1, now imagine if every other cert line brought as much to the table as NW does. With 5 of them you'd get roughly 1.25^5 = 3.05x total improvement and that's ignoring the fact that the chance of extremely OP synergy would be very high. If HAs with NW5 and RS are annoying, think what would happen if they got 3 other +25% improvements on top what's already there.

    NW is a stupid imbalanced fluke
    Meh improvements are the only safe way you can do balance in a remotely fair FPS game.
  6. Aegie

    I suppose I was not being clear enough- what I mean is that options that share the same slot should be roughly equal in effectiveness. In other words, anything else that could be put in the NW slot (like Adrenaline Pump) should be roughly equal in effectiveness to NW. I am not saying that other suit slots should be increased in effectiveness to be in line with NW, only those that compete with NW for that slot.
  7. PWGuy93

    I don't back the argument that infiltrators should have guaranteed one hit kills or that top certed nanoweave should be nerfed or even the statement about flak being unnecessary.

    I don't see an issue with top certed Nanoweave, there are two choices happening: Infantry choose between Flak or Nanoweave.
    • If they select Flak they are one hit kills to good infiltrators but can mostly survive vehicle splash.
    • If they select Nanoweave it's 2-4 shots to kill but they instantly die from vehicle fire.
    Infantry must already choose between Flak or Nanoweave yet these debates often ignore that the infiltrator also has to make decisions other than their weapon. If an infiltrator uses a suppressor they are losing power and that is reducing the likelihood of one hit kills, if an infiltrator is at range they're more than likely going to need more than one shot to kill the target irregardless of weapon choice.

    From my view playing infiltrator, One Hit Kills (OHK) guarantees really don't belong in the game. The reality as it stands today is that your decision goes up against the targets armor decision it's a roll of the dice and that keeps the game from becoming a spreadsheet formula driven known outcome. I see the same for the ESF arguments about A2A vs A2G (and the reverse maneuver and new Flak armor buff) SOE saw one formula could win in every encounter and wanted to make it more a roll of the dice. You're decision goes up against the targets decision and there is no guarantee of outcomes....

    I personally think it's good for game play that there can be survivors during an encounter.
  8. infinite loop

    /signed to remove nanoweave. The ****** gunplay in PS2 has many causes but the combination of long TTK + NW5 makes it unbearable at times. Skill is completely removed from the equation when you are outnumbered. This is the only shooter I've played (since PS1) where you can get the jump on 2 guys and have no chance to kill them both if they are of equal sill. Shooting first doesn't mean **** in this game.
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  9. FigM

    I believe that Nanoweave should come with 10% speed penalty - call it the side effect of using heavy armor.

    10% isn't a strong penalty and many people would still use nanoweave, but they would seriously consider other options
  10. Edenwolf

    2% movement penalty per level acquired.

    Anything that directly increases hit points or damage in a multiplayer shooter with no downside is a nono.
  11. PastalavistaBB

    Wait for the Flak Armor Buff that will not just mitigate splash damage, but direct hits too. Which means: Infantry with Flak Armor might survive direct hits from a tank shell or rocket launcher. Add the new Dome Shields on top of that and say bye to any vehicle in this game. It's basically God Mode for Infantry. This will not solve the NW problem, it'll just add another - equally big - problem. People will run with NW indoors and when they see vehicles they'll run to a personel console/deployed sunderer and change to flak armor. Either way, the Survivability of Infantry gets higher and higher and reaches a point where it starts to get ridiculous. (Needs 4 Headshots to kill, survives a direct hit from a HE tank shell?)
  12. FateJH

    I put the disappointment ecountered in this problem entirely up on the doorstep of SOE. I believe they have neglected to properly set up sufficiently flexible damage modifiers. (I can't prove that they have but I believe it it very likely based on their track record for these things.) In the case of explosive damage, and maybe damage-types in general, there should always be or have ben enough flags to keep track of the origin of the damage and calculate hit-to-damge based on those flags. In the case of Flak armor, Infantry-originating explosives have their direct and indirect damage reduced significantly, vehicle secondary-based explosives just have their indirect damage reduced but their direct damage is just as lethal, and vehicle primaries should have no reduction.

    Nanoweave is just stupid in its current form. Should have always been a percent reduction modifier, not an additional health pool. Comparing it to Flak is apples-to-oranges because of that.

    Additionally, they need to stop giving Infantry explosive-based weapons to use as their primary AV source. How I wished the AV turret was just a deployable Basilisk, maybe just a little better, maybe not that much worse.
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  13. PastalavistaBB

    What I was trying to say is that the Flak Armor Buff will do to Vehicle vs Infantry fights what NW armor did to Infantry fights. And it'll be a viable option against choosing NW. But it won't improve gameplay, it'll worsen it. There are already Hordes of Infantry stomping Tank Colums to nothing in seconds, now think that even direct hits from Tank Shells can't kill them. Why they just remove Battle vehicles from the game and make it Infantryside 2 already? It's the direction this game is going to anyway...
  14. Lamat

    Just increase the damage slightly to round off the damage. 200 damage guns become 209, 6 bullet kill on nanoweave 5.
  15. PWGuy93

    Think about the other classes you play. Now think about how many others primarily play those classes. Now think about how Infiltrators with guaranteed one hit kills would impact their play style.

    I personally don't think they're going to make sniping stronger, it's a balancing issue that's best left where it is while they create recon drones to add some diversity to the class. Infiltrator already has a number of play styles, from my view perhaps more than other classes, can do damage up close, can harass easily, can flip terminals and turrets to be used against the enemy, can OHK semi close, semi auto from range quite nicely can recon will be able to recon with visual (drones), et. I personally don't think infiltrator needs a OHK buff for one specific type of weapon when other weapons and tools work better over all.
  16. Posse

    The problem is that if you do that then it becomes plainly better than the Orion/CARV, there's no way to balance around Nanoweave.
  17. Lamat

    5 bullets @ 200, 1 extra for nanoweave 5.

    7 bullets @ 143, 2 extra for nanoweave 5 @ higher rate of fire.

    This isn't fair? Maybe that can be an advantage to heavy hitting slow ROF weapons while high ROF weapons already benefit by being more forgiving of misses. Heavy hitting weapons are otherwise disadvantaged. In this case they are more body armor penetrating.
  18. Lamat

    167 could be changed to 180. Changing it from 6/8 to 6/7

    Sniper rifles would also be armor piercing so adjust accordingly.
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  19. Yerk

    Nanoweave is needed and balanced especially when TR and VS have long ranged Maxes. They got Lashers, Cosmos, Fractures that stops us NC from making a move if they just spam it.

    Finally, Snipers have to come closer if they want to kill and not just camp where they can't be hit.

    It's so easy for the VS and TR to say nerf it when NC has the crappiest guns and all they do is camp with Maxes and recoil free guns at long ranges while we NC can't even pop our head out.

    Give the NC Maxes massive range and you'll change your mind so fast.
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  20. UNSCSpartan051

    All I can say is, either Buff Basic HP to Nano 5 and remove nano, or remove nano.