MYTHBUSTED: 200 infantry resources to kill 450 vehicle resources?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Phazaar, Jun 27, 2013.

  1. Phazaar

    Okay guys, I normally do my best to avoid starting threads when similar threads are up, but I really felt this worth voicing outside of page 47842 on a thread no one will read, since a lot of the nonsense of about 10 whiners spamming the same topics each day has now started to cause discontent in game from people not understanding their nonsense.

    This is NOT a place for bashing tanks, C4, or infantry vs vehicle balance. The only point to be discussed is the premise that C4 needs to increase in costs because 200 infantry resources can kill something that cost 450 vehicle resources.

    First, I want you to take a look at this:

    Now, look at the hit rate of C4. 11%. So one in ten times someone throws C4, they get a hit with it.

    So, it's costing 1000 resources per hit. A hit is a kill, more often than not, but note that some hits will not be on tanks, and others will be but won't be killing blows as only a single piece will have been planted.

    Even if -every- single one of those hits was an MBT killed, that would still equate to 1000 resources per kill, and even if that kill was an MBT with two extreme menace occupants, that's still only 1100xp.

    1100xp per 1000 resources spent. Would anyone like to come in here and tell me that they get less than 495xp every time they pull a tank?
    • Up x 24
  2. Fightfan84

    C4 doesn't need more nerf's. The resource cost is fine. Harassers and Liberators should die with two C4 bricks.
    • Up x 9

    Thats an interesting take on this argument.

    I would NOT use this index as ANY means of a balance argument, as noted in the OP, but it is certainly an interesting stat to discuss.

    I personally dont really care about resource cost as ANY form of balance, especially considering the fact that C-4 is one of a dozen AV options. If a single stick of C-4 cost 750, it would suck, but it wouldnt be game changing. C-4 is my go-to tank killer on the spot.

    I STILL think that the best solution is simply the addition of a super powerful 3-man tank, and to let all of the solo players keep this equal footing and complain in their own right.
    • Up x 1
  4. Sowahka

    I'd argue that C4 is OP simply because I can easily kill large groups of enemies by zerging them as an LA or kill vehicles easily by holding down the space bar and right clicking as fast as humanly possible. I personally feel that I shouldn't be able to kill an MBT so easily unless I plant at least one of the two bricks on the tank's rump. If an MBT tries to seek cover behind a hill, rock, or building he's a free kill for any LA. I don't think MBTs should have to be so afraid of rocks and buildings. They should be afraid, but they shouldn't have to worry about being instagibbed just because an LA was moderately nearby.
    • Up x 2
  5. Wezdor

    Cost should stay the same, killing power against MBTs should go down, or we should be given an option to cert (additionaly) into C4 resistance.

    It's the only thing that does NOT have a counter in this game.
    • Up x 2
  6. KanoHe

    Somehow people forgot about 350 inf Max versus 100 inf C4...
    • Up x 9
  7. Phazaar

    Both points not connected to the resource cost argument, thus offtopic. Very briefly though, Wezdor: Scout Radar, movement, situational awareness, team mates. All are counters. What is the counter to two Decimator rockets to the rear? The same, except that they're taking less risk, and your Scout Radar won't help.

    Once again, let's assume that -every- kill is an extreme menace MAX. C4 user spends 1000 resources to get 300+30xp (is it 30, I can't remember I've been playing underpop for so long haha!).

    MAX user spends 350 resources to quadruple his average score per hour. His investment is also infinite, in that he can be resurrected and reused ad infinitum.

    I used MBT because it was almost fair; 1100xp for 1000 resources. Bringing MAX into the discussion only makes the point stronger, by reducing potential XP by 2/3rds, whilst costing the same amount.
    • Up x 1
  8. theholeyone

    How is fire count calculated? Is it the deploying button (right click so unlikely) or is it the detonating button (left click like the rest so more likely). If it is the left click those stats are meaningless as a lot of players spam the left click button to detonate, or just spam it for giggles when nothing is even planted.

    edit: yeh mine shows 18% hit rate, there is no way that only 18% of my bricks placed do damage to an enemy, it has to include all the button spamming.
  9. Wezdor

    This is how the game feels right now, as a tank near an enemy base. OP is, naturally, Sebastian.

    Headless kamikazes everywhere, i tell ya... except half of them fly.

    Edit: I need a sig, this seems about right...
    • Up x 4
  10. KanoHe

    Considering avarage K/d 2.5 - 3.5 for Maxes your argument is invalid...
    • Up x 2
  11. Hoki

    Don't use what? The fact that you can miss with C4 or die before it goes off?

    Oh ok, fair argument. Just ignore everything that balances C4.

    Must be easier for you to cry nerf if you can pretend that C4 teleports to main battle tanks and always blows up and never misses.

    Lets also pretend that it doesn't cost 100 infantry resources and it resupplies at ammo crates.
    • Up x 1
  12. Wezdor

    • Scout radar makes me lose Magburners aka the only good thing about the magrider that doesnt make me a big fat rock.
    • Situational awareness is hard in a Magrider.
    • Team mates are not present or are scarce because i do not play in a zerg, i try and flank the enemy.
    • The counter to deci? I move. Same as everything else. C4 does NOT let me move, because I am insta gibbed.
    All i ask is that i be given a chance to get the **** out once attacked instead of blowing right the F up.
    • Up x 1
  13. Phazaar

    I think it's on deploys, otherwise my C4 fire count would be about 30 times higher (I probably click 20-30 times per detonation), but just to confirm, my current C4 fire count is 2029. I've just spammed the trigger about 50 times and planted 2 C4. When it updates, we'll see.

    If it were on clicks, it will more than likely be down to how often you press the button, not how often you actually click (since no other weapon in game counts your actual clicks), which when bearing in mind that you don't actually press the button during the 'arming time' before you can detonate, will mitigate the 'spam to detonate' effect.
    • Up x 1
  14. theholeyone

    You should move before the C4 is even planted, if you can move out of the way of decimator rockets which travel faster than infantrymen and don't show on the radar, then you shouldn't have any problem with infantry.
    • Up x 1
  15. Sordid

    Yes it does, it's called having a gunner.
    • Up x 3
  16. Phazaar

    K/D has nothing to do with score, and score is the metric by which reward is dolled out in the game.

    Also, do note that K/D does not take into account MAXs getting rezzed. Unlike a vehicle purchase, a MAX purchase is for life, not just for this zerg.

    All of that aside, what on earth does average K/D of anything have to do with 10% hit rate for C4? Lol, poor straws, always getting grasped at.
    • Up x 1
  17. theholeyone

    Nice work, that'll let us know one way or the other.

    I'm betting something is up with those stats, 18% for me is just too low
  18. K3STR3L

    Another campaign to save C4 from having the price increased. I shall leave this one up to the devs and not forumside and it's extremely transparent members.
    • Up x 3
  19. Phazaar

    You're off topic and I'd appreciate you either take this to PM if you really feel you need more help, or one of the other threads on the possible counters to C4 usage. For your own education, I will again clarify:

    Scout Radar exists. If you want to ensure you don't die to C4, it is there, and you cannot say there is no counter to it. Your choice to use Magburner means you are stronger against other things (like flanking tanks), and weaker against C4 users. My choice to use Scout Radar means I never die to C4 users, but have to work harder in tank vs tank. This is how combined arms works; it is a good thing and should be encouraged.

    Things being hard is a good thing. Learn, adapt, enjoy. Also, get a gunner, and use third person. You're really not at a huge disadvantage.

    Make friends. Roll with them. It's not being in a zerg, it's being in a team, and it's the whole idea of the game. Embrace it. If you expect to get easy kills by flanking and not have extra things (like C4 users) working to counter you, or have the game actively improve your survivability when you take risks, you have completely misunderstood the basic mechanics of combat+gaming.

    You can outrun a rocket but you can't move away from a Light Assault in the 5 full seconds it takes him to place both C4 and detonate it? Two decimators only means 2 HA, which is still 1v1 when factoring in your gunner (you do have a gunner, right?). It's still an instagib, and it can be done from 500m away.

    So, your points about there being nothing else without a counter, and that C4 has no counter have been completely exhausted. We shall now continue with the topic as to whether it is right to compare the resource cost of C4 as if it has 100% efficacy, when it appears to be much more like 11%.
  20. KanoHe

    Those both statistical metrics can be used to compare exp/cost ratio...
    Because Exp matters...
    So for 350 infantry resources Max Player get atleast 300 exp on avarage.
    Meanwhile I can't imagine c4 have only 10% hit ratio with such a bigass explosion...