[Vehicle] Liberator Tank Buster - TOO MUCH DAMAGE

For the sake of accuracy, I need to add that you have missed a crucial fact: The CAS30 Tank Buster fires two rounds per shot. The tooltip for the TB in game and on the wiki states 'Pellet Count: 2', and on inspection the gun does, in fact, fire two rounds for every shot. In reality, the Tank Buster is a rapid-firing shotgun that only fires two pellets.

Presumably this was implemented to give the TB a random spread without using an actual CoF mechanic. But the 30-round base magazine is technically 60 rounds.

I've just tested this with a stop watch and this is true.. So it's burst DPS is already super high as it only takes 2.2 seconds to empty a clip. In which case calculations need to be adjusted again!

Assuming all calculations against a MBT resistance now then..

So in 44 rounds it would do 8376 damage, at under 50m, and take 2.2 seconds to empty it's clip for 3807 Burst DPS!! HOLY CRAP!
So including reloads it would do 1469 Sustained DPS

To compare that against Vanguard with 2 gunners it can fire 1 AP and 1 Halberd rounds in the same time it takes to empty a tank buster clip so with 1 AP and 1 Halberd rounds it would do AP: 2386 Damage, Halberd: 1500 Damage, Total:3886 damage at all ranges
and including reloads AP: 681 Sustained DPS Halberd: 545 Sustained DPS Total: 1226 Sustained DPS

The tank buster stats should instead be:
215 damage < 50M to 120 damage > 300M per round (decreased to 65%)
Pellet Count: 1 (Decreased to 50%)
900 RPM (Increased to 150%)

So now we have
in 44 rounds it would do 5392 damage, at under 50m, and take 2.93 seconds to empty it's clip for 1840 Burst DPS
So including reloads we have 838 Sustained DPS

So now the numbers really show just how powerful the tank buster is compared to the other weapons with super higher sustained DPS (I.E in air combat where it's going to use it) and extremely high burst DPS for strafing runs on tanks. Now obviously the sustained DPS is assuming it's under 50M but even when it's further away than 300M it's still putting out 438 sustained DPS with the above specs, which is still very high.

Thanks for the reply I guess..

You'd need a few pieces of AA support.. otherwise the AA is the first on the menu.
Even so, libs can fly around, making attack runs from long range with the dalton.

Depends on the fight.. I stand by my statement.. a few zephyr libs over a basefight force every enemy indoors.

Wasn't specifically intended at using shredder for AI; I know it has no splash. It is however, quite an effective turret vs enemy aircraft. (mounted the wrong way for aircraft, but that's up to the pilot to correct for)
Oh and btw: most tank-mounted weapons also need dead on hits vs infantry now.. they don't have 800 rpm however.
Compare the shredder vs the kobalt for AI: same accuracy according to the wiki. One does more damage at short range, 800 rpm vs 550..

One point most pilots will make is that tanks don't bring walkers typically for AA, so should lose to air. Well.. liberator can bring a rear walker, the tankbuster is lethal if you can line up vs an enemy aircraft, and the shredder is fine vs both tanks and air. Oh, and yes, you can still kill infantry with it.

Again, mostly low flying aircraft.. pilot taking risk. The tank has a hard time lining up a shot, sometimes it's impossible vs elevated targets, the lib is more mobile. (yes, lining up a tankbuster shot is hard..)
and mbt's still don't have a 3rd gunner option, bulldog is decent AV, LA C4 fiary..

Again wiki: zephyr is a "liberator cannon" ; same resistance multipliers.
I did not state a zephyr does the same damage vs mbts..

I do think libs should be nerfed..
but here is my main issue:
a ESF kills an MBT from behind using only nosegun
faster than a Liberator.

A galaxy is more durable vs ESF nosegun than prowler frontal armor.

-> AA weapons should murder aircraft.
Including specifically the A2A platform in game, the ESF with rotaries.

Another option: new noseguns for ESF's, "A2A cannon"; where-as current noseguns are more "machine-gun".
equivalent to going from .303 machine guns on spitfires to 20mm cannons for busting bombers.

its not about killing faster or slower, its about tanks fighting back, because right now tanks have 0% chance of fighting libs. i can fight back against ESFs since they are 1 hit kill, but 3 shots on libs is WAY too much. should be 2 shots.

You have to go in quite close to land your tank buster shots. AP rounds are easy to shoot. There's are huge bullet drop too. All in all i feel that these make the weapon perfectly balanced.

ah, but design-wise, libs are the A2G vehicle.
ESF's are supposed to be strong A2A fighters, yet their upgrades are far better at A2G
(hornets, LOLPODS, anti-infantry noseguns)
than at A2A (coyotes, rotaries & tomcats) when considering dmg and ammo count.

So, generally speaking:
Lib > tank. At the moment, maybe it is >>, too strong, yes.
Issue: lightning skyguard is a tank too; seperate issue.
Lib is however, also to strong vs A2A ESF's, as is the galaxy. Specifically, liberator is tougher vs ESF noseguns than mbt rear; galaxy is tougher vs ESF noseguns than prowler front...
It's not just "upgrade mbt armor vs ESF noseguns"; it is nerf lib & galaxy toughness and mobility vs what should be a hard-counter to them.

What would you recommend a liberator equip: a walker, or a bulldog? Most pick bulldog.. why would you pick walker? vs enemy esf's.. a lib crew should start sweating when they see an ESF approaching.

walker is especially strong since it got the last velocity increase, and it's great at picking off weakened targets because of the RoF. it's also passable at AI and light AV. it works well in combination with a shredder for burst DPS (drake is better but walker is easier to use) and can help save dalton ammo that would otherwise go to waste firing at air targets that flounder around, or just run away. bulldog is really bad at everything since the last nerf, so the only time to pull it is when you pull zephyr to farm infantry at a spawn camp.

approximately zero actually good libs use zephyr/bulldog or even camp spawns for that matter. i guess sometimes it's fun to pull against some bad who got daltoned and then pulled a burster MAX. but it's not for serious use. right now the top overall setup is shredder/drake and second is dalton with either walker or drake. both are good for general purpose, and that's the only reason libs still fly at all. if people like this post had their way, obviously it would be unplayable. but that's obviously because they don't know what they're even talking about most of the time.

The Tankbuster is fine against ground units. It is NOT fine against aircraft. Aircraft should get much higher resistances against the Tankbuster. Oh, and the TWO projectiles per shot have to go, even if it means doubling the damage of each individual shot.

Air is generally fine right now, but for any real buffs that's going to happen we need to make ground AA really deter by posing a threat instead of this oh I might die, better fly away and repair.
In real life, AA pose as a danger to deter aircraft from entering their zone, in game all AA ever does is put a time limit on aircraft.

And then why nerf AA when we can buff Aircraft countermeasures, you want to deal with lock-ons, equip flares, if flares are bad then let's buff them, the devs have been specializing vehicles more and more so why should aircraft be an exception.

You don't need to nerf the tank buster. Nerf the maneuverability(turn and roll rate) of the liberator. This means it'll have a lot less time to line up for a strafing run on a tank, increasing the distance it needs to come in from and the length of time it is exposed and flying straight, allowing everybody with a tank gun or rocket launcher to shoot at it while also making it next to useless against air. That in turn, will be an indirect buff to the spur, making that a better air to air nose gun for the liberator.

Please stop thinking of buffing skyguards. They're only decent against ESF's as they should be. They're such a low skill weapon that can be employed behind friendly lines, far from any danger that is posed by enemy ground units. Skyguards already have a high enough rate of fire.

Do you really want to give up all your air support in a fight because the enemy has a single skyguard?

Ground AA currently destroys any aircraft that linger. That kind of balance is fine by me with limiting how effective aircraft can be. SOE basically threw a big hint in all your faces that that is their design goal by giving you air deterrence xp.

Now if you want an air to ground weapon to complain about, you should be complaining about hornet missiles.

ESF's don't need to slow down to fire them. They limit their exposure time to enemy fire very easily by using the terrain. Basically the only defense against hornet ESF's is by using air to air ESF's. Hornet missiles kill burster maxes in a single pass. Two passes will kill a skyguard. Flak and lock-ons have no chance to stop a hornet ESF until after it has hit its target.



You should be mad at your own team when you get tankbustered. They're the ones with weapons that can kill libs in 2-3 hits and chose not to because:

A)They're not the ones being shot at.

or

B)Their gun didn't say "anti-air" on it. I'm looking at all you tank drivers and heavy assaults. Hell, even the AV maxes deserve some blame.

...The magazine capacities are too damned high.


Though I also really like the suggestion right above this ^
The Lib's flight mechanics are all wrong. It "Rolls" way too fast, but "Yaws" way too slowly.
The Lib is supposed to be a "Gun Ship", eg; a heavily armored Helicopter.
Well Heli's aren't supposed to roll and pitch like a F22. But that's exactly what the Lib does.
It spins it's belly d*** around at your ESF or Phalanx in 1 second flat, yet takes 5 seconds to yaw 90 degrees

OP are you seriously comparing the tankbuster to the AP vanguard cannon? You do realize that the tankbuster has insane damage dropoff, insane spread, and incredibly low bullet velocity, right? You don't appear to have taken ANY of those into account in any of your posts. The Tankbuster BUSTS TANKS, as it should. If you want to camp in a tank on top of a hill and farm infantry that is fine, but don't expect to do it without having to pay attention to your surroundings. If you get oneclipped in a tank, YOU DESERVE IT because you have ZERO situational awareness.

In order to be at max damage, you have to be withing 50 METERS with the tankbuster. This is a LOT closer than most people think it is. If you engage outside of that range, you won't do much damage because of damage falloff combined with the insane spread on the gun. This means your rounds will do less damage, and fewer will hit. This means libs have to get VERY close to kill things with the tankbuster, which means they are extremely vulnerable to just about everything (tank cannons, dumbfires, vulcan cannons, etc.).


In any event 90% of the people who fly libs have no idea what they are doing and are utter trash with the tankbuster anyway. The people that killed you and caused you to make this nerf thread probably had DAYS of playtime flying liberators. It makes sense that they know the strengths of the weapon and know how to use it. However, it still has SERIOUS limitations and is basically a plane mounted melee weapon.On top of that, you have to know how to fly a plane to use it, which is a lot harder than just driving a tank around.

The tankbuster is fine, stop complaining. It requires a lib to get in range of dumb-fires other tank shells and whatever else is on the ground to be effective. Its risky to do but atm is worth the risk, if it gets nerfed it won't be. Not to mention the other 2 lib nose guns are worthless and liberators would be even more worthless in helping even high-population fights. As they are now, they are only good for helping very small fights or winning side engagements (except on hossin where you can hide easier).

If a tankbuster kills you and your tank, your team sucks because it had not AA on the ground nor in the air or you were too far away from your "flock". Either way, if this guy managed to sneak up on your with a Lib, he deserved the skill and you should have your lesson learned for the next tim

TB is fine imo.

This isn't just about the fact it can sneak up on a tank and take it out.

This is about the fact it can do soo much damage to both MBTs and against things such as galaxies or valkyries so easily .. using just one of it's weapons. Just go into the VR training and take a look at just how much damage the TB deals to not only MBTs but to the Galaxy as well. If the lib was able to do these things using all 3 of it's weapons, instead of just 1 then it would be fair play.. thats a decent amount of skill and requires 3 players to be playing together.. which is what the lib is designed for.. (it has 3 seats after all)

And AA is another subject entirely as it doesn't do enough damage to stop a lib wanting to do so unless there is a disproportionate amount of AA available.

I actually just went to test this..

Using the Lib in VR at a pace of 135m approx

It will take out a stock Galaxy or a MBT in 2 clips. That is LESS than 8 seconds.. (tested on both)

And 135m for anyone wondering is a decent distance for a lib to be firing at..

Yea that's VR

Now in Live you had eaten around 2-3 ap shells already before you could even start reloading after the first volly off buster
gg dead lib

Galaxy is another kake

The only thing to note is just how insanely dangerous the Tank Buster is to use. In a direct confrontation with skilled pilots in either ESFs or other Liberators, using the TB will get you killed. ESFs can roll out of your way and keep pounding you, Libs can also dodge while simultaneously slamming you with accurate bellygun fire. Its primary use in A2A is against unaware targets - dropping out of the sky like a ton of bricks onto whatever's below. I've talked to and observed other High-G Lib pilots and they generally only use the TB in low-risk A2A situations. Precision Bomber airframes are a different story.

Ground targets are a similar situation to air. Where tanks are concerned I live by the philosophy of 'attack from behind or not at all', as tanks are very much able to defend themselves if they see me coming, but then I'm the kind of person who likes to split kills between the pilot and gunner seats - every ground attack run starts with a TB volley. Attacking from the front is ludicrously risky, as the target can see you coming and easily evade. Depending on your angle he can potentially shoot you down before you even get to him. Once you've landed a volley from the front you'll be at your lowest point and will need to pull up - if the tank drives forward and possibly angles himself slightly they can still nail you.

About 90% of my Tank Buster kills are on targets that don't know I'm coming, because if they DO know I'm coming then I've most likely already lost. I could just fly straight over and let the gunner do all the work, but that is extremely poor behaviour and unfair on the tank on the receiving end.

EDIT: I missed something: You're not really going to reliably kill anything with a single TB volley because of the amount of danger you put yourself in. You need to pull up and let the gunner shoot. It's still a team effort, just perhaps not quite as much of a team effort as it could be.

liberators the loudest vehicle in the game, if you dont hear it coming, I dont know what to tell you. Also, go get a tankbuster and try to use it in real fights, not vr, its not something thats an "I win" button, youll realize after you get a couple ap rounds and your suddenly 450 nanites down with little to show for it.