everyone has access to recon darts?

Yes, please explain this to me. I edited my last post in terms of usefulness of hacking in specific locations at which I tend to hack as much as I can. Surprisingly most infiltrators don't hack. And not many infiltrators try to escape bad odds by hack/ spawn a lightning. Most seem to either snipe or SMG.

As for Radar having two sides: yeah true, but one side is better than the other and the poormans sniper darts also have two sides

Relying on being totally invisible while cloaked to a part of the playerbase that runs low settings and not wanting to give up this unintended advantage to flashlights sounds selfish to me.

Radar distances: well you have to estimate. You see the center of the radius on the map and you assume that its always max rank. Not precise but workable. Know distances shown on your minimap

Prox Radar is powerful but less common, nerfed on Flashes, which was indeed op

Alright, this may or may not be lengthy...

As it stands, everything that can be hacked within the game can also be destroyed...which most will do in order to gain that small bit of experience. Sometimes, this is even done at the expense of the Infiltrator when a tank just unloads and kills you while you're trying to hack. When your faction is assaulting an enemy base, the majority of turrets are destroyed as quickly as possible...terminals come next if a single Infiltrator hasn't already quickly hacked them.

That's what happens...either the hackable systems in a base are destroyed, or a single Infiltrator has already done the job. This means that, for all the other Infiltrators, there really isn't any opportunity to hack and little point to do so. The upcoming energy bridges proposed by the development team MIGHT have been a step in the right direction by adding a indestructible hackable object...but it only would have been a slight step in the right direction.

Basically, there's no persistent hacking system in the game...and not enough objects to hack. I go into a LOT more detail here.

The difference here is that we're supposed to be the stealth oriented class...but stealth is effected by far more than just visibility.

- If you are heard, people are more aware and look for that tell tale distortion effect.
- If you are on the radar, people are more aware and look for that tell tale distortion effect...and now have a pinpoint location to look.

Our ability is indirectly weakened through other methods of anti-stealth. So, rather than just the weakness of our sound mechanic and the decreased amount of health...you can consider radar another counter to the ability, but indirectly so. The flashlight is a direct hard counter, of course.

The other classes don't rely on stealth, it's not as important if they expose themselves. Important...but not as important.

If you think that I want us to be completely invisible on low settings, you're very mistaken.

I absolutely LOATHE the fact that the development team can't balance the graphical effect of cloak on all settings. As it stands, we're overpowered against anyone using low settings and underpowered against those with medium to ultra. We're invisible to anyone using low, and that's inexcusable...but we're also too easily distinguishable on medium to ultra, and anyone who looks at the following video can't deny that.



In that second scene, you can see just how easy it is to spot an Infiltrator even without the flashlight. Now, for Stalker Cloaking...I believe it should be completely invisible while crouched at the very least or that distortion effect is going to be extremely problematic even without the Flashlight.

In my thread, I suggested Banshee Cloaking...which is a completely invisible cloaking device but I balance it out by restricting the primary, like Stalker, and a sound based mechanic. I believe this would be easier to accomplish than relying on an extremely situational distortion effect that they have still been unable to balance on all graphical settings. The hard counter of the flashlight would make Banshee even more balanced.

Hunter and Nano-Armor though, no...they should never be fully invisible and I would never claim such a thing. It's terrible that people on low settings have had to suffer through that, it's no fun for them and it's no fun for us to be underpowered against those using medium to ultra.

You can't estimate the range unless you know that the source is there, are you to just assume that every aircraft has Scout Radar, that every tank has Proximity Radar? Also, nothing was nerfed on the Flash...it has Scout Radar, which is superior to Proximity because it detects us while cloaked and stationary.

This could be helped by providing Infiltrators with an indicator on their HUD that lets us know when we're detected on the radar, but it's not really going to solve the problem. Knowing that a base is literally blanketed in radar doesn't help you get into the base...just lets you know that it's not worth the trouble and, again, you should be sniping instead.

You pretend to make this crossbow thing look ok because infiltrators have a tool and two skills which is more than other classes have. But you forget to mention the class has less shield than any other and no way to harm Max and vehicles.

The main issue is the fact that you cant tell who fired them, they look identical to inf recon darts, you dont know if you are looking at bolts an engy is spamming or rank 5 darts an infil is spamming.

On live now if you see an enemy radar ping you know its an infil, if this goes live you dont know who you are going to be facing when you round a corner.

I'd say also Max units should fire recon darts.

/sarcasm off

Nay, they might as well fire off Motion Sensors at this point.

As long as I can remember these 100 less shields have been used as an argument to state that infiltrators are somewhat weak and therefore need alot of stuff.
While 100 more life is nice to have, not everyone is certing NWA anymore although at High Rank it mitigates far more than 100 damage in most firefights. Not everyone is opting for Flak or ASC instead.

In my eyperience firefights with Infiltrators involved have less outcomes with the winner - either way - surving with a red healthbar. Element of surprise seems to be a bigger issue here as well as getting detected. These fights are less head to head.

The 100 life-argument is overated imho, especially if you cert into NWA and maybe even NAC to play a real infantry killer. More like a LA without Jets and cloak instead + Darts. Additionally you get the ability to hack.
Don't hide, see your sound and your radar signature as vague indications you are around, to bait them. An SMG infiltrator is 1 on 1 as powerful as a Heavy in bright daylight on max settings. If its not in the ice rivers of Esamir with no tree or slope within 200m

Maxes and Vehicles:

That's what Terminal hacking is for. And it works. You have to walk a bit and know where they are but its pretty easy with Hunter cloak to avoid fights on your way there. I never see these terminals guarded btw.

That decreased health is why the Commissioner and Underboss take us out with a single shot to the head. This isn't something I minded, personally, but the Crossbow also does this...with a 6x Scope. This update seems to cater more to non-Infiltrators by providing them with aspects of our class, rather than provide anything interesting to the Infiltrator themselves.

We get new empire specific rifles, joygasm.

Everything else is pretty sub-par, in my opinion...especially Stalker Cloak when you favor in all these new radar detection capabilities and the hard counter incorporation atop of a stealth mechanic that was already pretty lackluster against anyone who isn't using low settings.

As stated above...hacking is trivial right now, which is something we hoped would be addressed in this update. Instead, they removed terminals and didn't address the issues I described above.

Yeah people destroy terminals, but mostly when the base is pretty much flipped already. If they shoot at an important terminal ignoring the infiltrator I just kill them. Even if I'm not the infiltrator.
Turrets get destroyed but usually either by zerglings or in case they shoot at your friends and those turrets are a real threat.

Well, arriving at base with the Zerg indeed makes the infiltrator pretty useless but aren't you recon class?

You cant cap a base behind enemy lines but you can hack the turrets. Once the base is cap-able enemy defenders will deploy to that base and with turrets hacked its much more difficult for them to defend.
You don't have to ghost-hack but a future 48 vs. 48 will be a 1-12 vs 1-12 at this stage. These are your fights and as battle evolves stuff is gonna get re-hacked so their is need for 'maintainence'


Radar: yes, you can see where the dart/ sensor/ bolt is located. Assume your are detected (always do) and try to evade 50m around it if you want to be radar stealthy. Your cloak will still give you the benefit of being much less visible, especially at night. Its mostly good enough to get you into 6-10 m at which SMGs are top quality weapons.

Other classes not relying on stealth? True, they cant. And you shouldnt. All classes try to be as sneaky as possible. You can do it best, by far

Scout Radar on Flashes was nerfed. It used to work unmounted for all friendlies and I think it had a much larger radius. You could find them all over bases in weird spots and every few minutes someone came among to refresh it to keep the platoons OP radar.

Yeah you can OHK- headshoot infiltrators with a Comm at short range . But really, if I score this shot on any class i will make the follow up shot to the body too.

As for hacking being useless. No.

Another example:

Small satellite bases like next to the Amerish Amps which work as attackers hard spawns during alerts and that turn neutral before flipping, when terminals are still your faction color but are disabled because a babysitter and his max is camping A. Well you got 10 secs to hack the Terminal so your friend gets a Max too

And vehicle terminals at tech plants are crucial. If you control them you can spawn 20 tanks instantly. No hacker - no tanks

That's when tanks are actually useful btw.

Not in my experience, regarding the terminals, they're normally quick to go once allied forces push into the base...turrets being the first. This is, of course, in zerg oriented situations...as you express. Within every other situation, there's just not enough objects available to make the system lucrative...a single Infiltrator can get the job done in most bases, a few in the larger.

This is in stark contrast to Combat Medics and Engineers, who's role is perpetual and persistent.

- There's always something to repair.
- There's always bodies to heal or resurrect.

Everything available to hack is shared with the Engineer...who essentially has "hacking" capabilities in the form of just repairing a destroyed object. Ultimately, the entire system is lackluster and not lucrative enough to really lure us in...especially not after this update that only incorporates more reasons to stay away from the base. They already implemented the feature of causing terminals to blink while being hacked...what few terminals they haven't removed from the game, that is.

I've done this...

There's really no effect, besides the experience gain through the hacking itself. Before a base flips, you normally have a fair share spawning at the next...and it takes an Infiltrator a couple of seconds to repair the damage you caused through hacking, the base is fine by the time your forces are on the move to assault it.

It's just not very significant to the battle.

It does come in handy, sometimes, when they're spawning armor and you start railing them with an anti-armor turret; that's always fun.

You can with the sensor dart, you can't with Proximity and Scout Radar. The only radar detection capabilities that show on the radar are ours, haha. Our motion sensor will display on the radar as well when people enter into its influence...but again, this is a double edged sword that hurts our class as much as it helps...as most of our tools do.

Actually, I'd say that the Light Assault is far superior to our stealth capabilities.

They are silent and far more mobile.

We have a sub-par cloaking device that now has a hard counter, 100 less health, horrifically loud sound mechanic, and an ability that's weakened indirectly by the radar itself. Truth be told, if this is the path they're going...they might as well just merge the Light Assault and Infiltrator, then do away with cloaking entirely.

You think it's something great...watch that video, anyone who has eyes can adapt to the effect pretty quickly. I've had a head start because I played Starcraft for ten years...but sadly, I play on low settings.

OH, you mean in terms of them having to be mounted for the Scout Radar to work?

I don't really see that as much of a nerf, more of a fix...we still have Flash drivers who can just sit there and have a very effective detection tool that Infiltrators can't see. It's better on aircraft though.

This is why I never minded the Commissioner or Underboss, they don't have a scope. The Crossbow is essentially a miniature hybridized bolt-action semi-automatic sniper rifle. It might have its own quirks...but it's silent and has a scope...great little weapon.

Been playing with it on the test server a lot.

I believe about 90% of the Infiltrator community would disagree with you. It's rare that hacking makes a difference in this game, and when it does...it's for a very select few.

This is why most Infiltrators don't even count it as an ability, most of us don't even get the chance to do it and the impact is minimal.

You're not understanding the problem...

The terminals and turrets are either destroyed...or one or two Infiltrators are all you need. The role is EXTREMELY small and normally holds little impact on the battle itself for a multitude of reasons I already expressed.

If I do as you just described, awesome...I got some experience and helped out my faction a little bit. That, however, leaves the other five Infiltrators with nothing to hack. For them, there is no hacking game...I already did it myself.

Something I do whenever possible. Again, same problems as expressed...destroyed or one Infiltrator successfully does the job and leaves the other X amount with nothing to do in terms of hacking. This doesn't happen for an Engineer or Combat Medic, both of which always have bodies to heal and resurrect or an overwhelming abundance of things to repair.

The impact of hacking is minimal, the amount of people who get to hack is limited, the system is lackluster...hence the reason why so many Infiltrators pay no attention to it. We don't really need to hack the terminals and turrets...most are destroyed within a few seconds and sometimes destroyed while we're trying to hack them by greedy armor. Furthermore, we put ourselves at significant risk hacking terminals now because it basically lets people know we're there, hacking their terminal, and ripe for the killing.

I suspect if this goes live we will be seeing a lot of engis throwing down an ammo pack and spamming detect bolts.

You'll also see every Infiltrator with Stalker Cloaking harassing armor. This weapon blurs the lines between class roles by giving everyone a silenced mini-sniper rifle, recon darts, and us anti-armor rounds...

It needs a lot of work.

Considering every class but infiltrator has tools to take out vehicles I don't see that really being a problem. The crossbows velocity is crap and cant OHK so it's not really a mini sniper rifle.

Personally, I've never believed that we needed direct methods of engaging armor...it was one of our weaknesses to compensate for our infantry exterminating capabilities. I've never minded indirect methods of affecting armor, like EMP grenades causing HUD and mobility problems, the ability to hack ammunition towers, things of that nature.

As it stands, however, armor is already in a pretty awkward place...balanced based upon their potential volume within a single area at any given point in time rather than individual statistics. That's an entirely different topic of discussion though.

It seems to me you're showing yourself like the King Of Infiltrators pretending to know everything and to teach everyone how to play this class.
Did you ever notice that hackable targets get usually destroyed before Infiltrators manage to do anything? Guess why? Because a destroyed turret takes a lot of time to get repaired, while a hacked turret can be re-hacked in less than 3 seconds. It all leads attacking forces to neutralize turrets using tanks instead of waiting for an Infiltrator. And it's the same for vehicle bays: the best way to prevent the enemy from spawning more vehicles is rolling a tank and boom boom all the terminals.
Moreover hacking a occupied turret will eject the gunner but due to a bug it will render with a few seconds of delay, meaning that he's likely to kill you before you even see him.



Then, in case you didn't notice, equipment terminals have been removed from most of bases except from spawn rooms, meaning we have even less things to hack. And a few weeks ago the changed the skill so that turrets and terminal blink like lights on Xmas tree when you hack them, revealing your position to every enemy watching the minimap.
Last but not least this certification line is not worth the cost. The difference between having rank 1 and last rank is quite trivial, making max rank a bad investment.

Now I'm not saying hacking is totally useless but don't pretend us to believe this is the best skill in the game. And still this does not justify the fact they're giving everyone a weapon that does what our secondary skill is supposed to do.

messed up the Quotation. sorry

you play for exp it's medic or vehicles or Max. I'm talking about efficiency in combat


you are way to afraid of enemies detecting you, thus merely knowing your presence up until Close range, when you should have jumped on them already.
looking at your stats (if the ingame-name matches your forumname) I get the impression that you are lacking CQC experience. if you are decent in cqc the darts are godly. well, you have to be able to kill even without them, thats true neither cloak nor darts can make up for that need, they are enhancing your killing potential

LA being more stealthy is just totally wrong. start playing LA for a change, also very good for developing CQC abilities. they are totally visible and spotted more often than other classes. you might be unable to reach them but you will see them fly.
someone sitting in a tree with a suppressed carb is not a LA. It's a poor mans sniper and will be spotted/ killed fast if capable players are around.
Towers cater to the LA because it has many different vertical levels and also since the darts won't work there due to this.

play other classes. after that you can actually judge and probably will value your cloak more.
100 less shieds is overated, sounds dont matter in big fights and enemy radar not in small fights.
maybe your headstart wasnt as good as you think and you should play infiltrator as sneaky assault class and not like something weak thats should be invisble and is not.

hacking is a tool, it's not meta. it's useful and can make a difference, here and there.

most cloakers dont hack because they are bad snipers and dont know how or what to hack and not becausse there is nothing to hack. there is alot.
sure you cant compare it to Medics gun but it's only your secondary tool. Primary is darts, weigh hacking against Triage.

hacking and cloak is synergetic.

you are good as an AP lightning driver? well in that case, your hacking tool becomes very powerful if you are in walking distance of a vehicle terminal. you are a good pilot? air terminals are outside, next to the lifts. you can walk behind enemies, being cloaked to get here, hack and get that op vehicle. engineer can't, wont make it there.
yes, some will notice you, after you noticing them if done right, and you might have to kill let's say two enemies on your way but other classes would have to fight four or five enemies going the same route.
so the cloak really helps alot but you still have to be able to kill.

if you look at destroyed termimals a lot you are in the wrong areas really. recon is not a zerg-class. you picked a class that is supposed to flank. so flank.

it's easier to walk into the main entrance of an Amp Station, run up the stairs and a hack a manned veh turret than ambusing that same pesky turret as a LA, flying up the wall and C4 it. I've done both

while you hack you can turn all directions and you dont ebven have to equp an actual tool to hack, getting hacked out of a turret on the other hand means you have to turn around first

having to play on low settings and totally not seeing enemy infiltrators is not a viable argument imo. we cant balanace the game around outdated hardware. if you are bad in CQC because you ran 20 or 30 FPS thats the same issue

As long as their is no cert line for recon bolts, Recon Darts will be much more superior.

that would be true if you weren't complaining about the class being sub-par. I'm simply argueing this by giving examples from my in-game experience.
expect that to see this from other players everytime you say that you are UP, your perks aren't good and you need someting better to get on par.

this comment alone is pretty interesting.

first off, its a cheap cert line. and for decent players certs are lying around. then you are complaining that rank 1 is making this tool usable and max rank isnt offering much.

well true, at minimum rank ist quick, at max trank ist super fast. I get to stand in that spot 2 seconds less. I value it, you don't. IMO any good player would want these 2 (?) seconds