[Suggestion] DBG take a look at VS and fix them

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by BorgUK1of9, Sep 22, 2018.

  1. pnkdth

    If a weapon jumps .2 instead of .4-5 you are increasing the spread, especially since add jittery horizontal recoil as well. I brought it up cause you did. If the same 0.2 weapon has a 522RPM then you have a weapon with solid hip fire and easy to control in ADS. The recoil tolerance and fast damage degradation makes it of questionable use at mid range+ but on the other hand SMGs are all horrible at this range.

    Looking at Dasanfall;
    The Gladius has the highest A.KDR + very even top A.KPH + and has the same accuracy as the Canis (which also place in the top of this category) despite having the infamous easy mode ammo + the highest A.HSR. It is also the SMG of the new batch with significantly larger numbers using it (something which tend to lower weapon performance). I'm not counting the swag/AE and special versions of SMGs since they are limited to dedicated players and low in numbers. It is quite interesting though that the Gladius performs on par with those. So I'm not really seeing anything that indicates it is underperforming, quite the opposite in fact.

    Stealth is very useful and much for the same reason SMGs tend to be worse carbines with better hip fire, weapons such as shotguns will always be balanced with LA/HAs in mind. In beta they tested out shotguns on infiltrators... That was pure insanity.
    • Up x 2
  2. Twin Suns

    I only play one faction. I don't switch and follow the herd(population).

    ***It would be nice to see awards based on True Faction Loyalty. ;)***

    Also, why do I get stuck in the Q while these no loyalty faction hoppers like, examples: jjhkui, bnjjh, aeddt, bbbbfgt get in. *rolls eyes*

    P.s. Apologies for going off topic. *bows* humbly.
  3. C0smos

    I tend to switch for the underpop faction everytime, instead of being a "loyalist" zerging everywhere on the continent.Just sayin'

    So yeah i'm in flavor of ppl playing the 3 factions, with a bit of objectivity when they are looking at the arsenal they are playing with.
  4. Trigga

    Ok so we are going around in circles now.....what a suprise.
    Ill try to address your points:

    A 1/2 tank, on any empire is really not worth using, but if we must:
    The Supernova FPC has higher DPS than the Titan 150 AP.
    Its not the cannon thats weaker, its the van has 1000 more health and therefore requires more hits to kill.
    The mag is supposed to offset this by being easier to miss, which it is.
    If you make the vanguard miss once, then the ttk difference is only 0.25 seconds in the vans favour.
    Now lets think about this in the field, which tank is likely to need more time to aim, the stabilised one or the poorly stabilised one?
    This is what i mean about the balance, its way more in-depth than a spreadsheet can ever tell us.

    Now, if we fully man both tanks, the mag claims an even higher DPS than the van, as it can use the same weapons or better ones.
    The durability of the Vanguard comes into question here, if you dont pop your shield with 100% health and all parties can shoot, the van loses. If the van misses the curved straffing hovering magrider once, it loses, shield or not.
    Using the shield at the right time is crucial now to the vans survival, before the change you might have had a point.

    I retreat all the time, get a better position, and then re-engage from the advantageous position i just found myself.
    If i get spotted and the position becomes less favourable, i change and i move to somewhere with yet another firing angle.
    Its not about running off to your warpgate, its about breaking LOS, waiting out the spot, re-positining and re-engaging.
    This is what the mag is best at imo.

    Equally, if you allowed yourself to get into close proximity with 2 lightnings and a lib youve just played poorly, or been out played. Bad gameplay decisions work both ways. Both tanks are equally fudged in this scenario. I did not however mean driving into a death trap, i meant seeing and realising the threat is there and reacting to it.
    If youre fighting a zerg, your going to die, many times if you actualy want to scrape some kills and not run away.
    I hope youre not suggesting the van can fight off a zerg, it cannot, it survives about as long as the mag does, even with its increased armour and shield.

    Of course a mag can shoot while fleeing, ignoring the fact it has a top gun, as ive already explained withdrawing or fleeing doesnt mean running back to the warpgate in a straight line across flat open terrain. As you fall back youre taking cover, turning back and giving shots, getting a quick rep, etc.
    Charging after a mag in an attempt to finish it is not a good idea in any vehicle except maybe a harasser.
    You seem to be in the midset of all tank fights start and end <10m apart from each other, this isnt infantry, its more like 100-200m or more. A vehicle fight can last across multiple hexs and is rarely a vacuum fight, youll almost always get interrupted by some other damage source either helping or hindering you.

    Besides, this stuff about retreating was a response to your 'no1 retreats ever' comment which just simply isnt true, it wasnt directed at the mag itself, this is basic tanking any tank including a lightning should be doing.

    Magrider Speed:
    The mag has the lowest top speed, the highest accel, best ability to traverse uneven terrain, doesnt have to turn to move 90, 45, 30, 20 degrees to where its facing. It can move in any direction at any time and doesnt lose as much speed when turning or going uphill.
    Its not the slowest tank, 1 factor doesnt make it the slowest, weve been over this...
    Which is faster:
    1.[IMG] or 2.[IMG]
    Because when put into a proper race, no1 wins every time, and easily.
    The Chiron cannot go from 0-100-0 (mph) in less than 5 seconds, and cant corner anywhere near as well.
    It does however have a higher top speed, about 30mph higher IIRC, not 5.

    Rep time:
    I care, very much, it could be the difference between death and survival.
    Again fights and balance dont exist in a bubble, once a fight is 'finished' a badly damaged van will take longer to get back into the battle, longer before it can kill that sundy, longer before it can backup the other van in its squad, longer before it can resume spawn camping.
    Any time your ally takes longer to return to battle and return to your aid is a disadvantage.
    If a mag is 99% damaged, it returns to your side quicker.

    I dont see that as a problem, i see it as different playstyles for different equipment, and could just as easily argue the van has to get into close range to win, and that due to the mags manoeuverability it chooses the engagement range, not the van.
    You can force cqc sure, but how many times once forced is it of benefit?
    A van can force its way up to a mag, but is either too far from friends now to be any use to them anyway, or too close now to the mags friends to survive, even if it kills the mag thats just a death trade and is meaningless to the progression of the battle.

    I wouldnt use shotguns as an example, unless you want to buff the van that is. Its been shown again and again that shotguns perform poorly compared to other weapons.
    Although it is a crazy similarity that as the van has often been show to perform poorly compared to the other tanks during the games life, but is the one most often moaned about......just like shotguns.

    Wow that took it out of me, apologies for the wall.
    Just to re-iterate before i go, i think the tanks face off against each other fairly well in the grand scale of things.
  5. Campagne

    Well I only mentioned the recoil because you did. :p But again within a measly ten meters the recoil just isn't going to be an issue. The SAW has an effective range where recoil may have a negative impact but the Gladius just doesn't. Hipfire while the best of the 200/~500s is the worst of all the other non-Tengu SMGs. Personally given the low RoF as well as the the 0.07 bloom per shot I wouldn't recommend actually hipfiring the Gladius. It's not at all what I would ever call "solid."

    26% accuracy is fairly low, even for PlanetSide 2. Especially for the Canis, though perhaps players just aren't using Unstable Ammo since the nerf. While it does have the highest number of users of the Gen III SMGs, it does have considerably less users than both other NC SMGs.

    As for the stats themselves, I can only offer educated guesses. Personally my top theory would be a combination of a few factors:
    • The Gladius is most often used by more veteran players given the very low RoF for a CQC ranged gun, and is almost always paired with a cloak. Evidence for this is the well below average A. KPU for the Gladius, indicating to me that often non-veteran players are not performing well enough to actually register on the board due to a low number of kills. Those that do bring the value down considerably as they quickly abandon the weapon.
    • Skilled players with stealth can dominate with anything and everything, and are likely doing so with the Gladius. This is supported by the fairly high-ish relative accuracy and HSR of the Gladius despite the objective fact that the Gladius is the least accurate primary in the game. These players are getting very close without dying and scoring more headshots than with other more accurate SMGs.
    Best guesses looking at the numbers anyway.

    Stealth is very, very overpowered. It's the difference between multiple-second long engagements and a 0.XY TTK. It's obviously why SMGs are inferior to carbines in a number of areas and why infiltrators don't get shotguns, as you said. (Fun fact: This is actually what keep the Magscatter from being buffed.)
  6. Pacster3

    Don't have the time to read it all now and yeah, you are anyway going in circles. I may read it later but if it keeps on THIS level("you ONLY need to MISS ONCE and then you still just a little bit stronger than magrider") then I think it's not really worth reading. I mean, hey...I just need to miss you once and then you almost got a chance against me...that's fair. Seriously???
  7. frozen north

    Keep in mind, im coming to this without reading prior posts. If I touch on an already solved issue, I apologize.

    I won't deny that the VS could stand a touch-up right now, mostly with regards to the magrider and MAX. But on the other hand, a lot of what happens now is a byproduct of them being overly strong before. And amazingly, this is nothing new with the VS. Back when I was a full on VS main, this was still a thing. Something is overly strong, so it gets nerfed into oblivion, and then takes a while for DBG to recognize it's broken and fix it.

    The first serious case of this was the VS ZOE MAX ability. I mean, if you slapped max level kinetic armour onto a VS max, and had max leveled ZOE, you were basically unstoppable against infantry. Unlike the TR that were forced to be immobile for a DPS buff, you could move at full speed, and have that permanently. This got heavily criticized, and was eventually nerfed into oblivion, and only recently actually returned to being semi viable. It's still crap, but it's at least usable crap now.

    The magrider is currently in the same cycle. Prior to CAI, it was actually fine. It was a master of ambush with it's side strafing, and unusually good side armour. CAI gave it a combined buff/ nerf. The nerf, as we all know, was too it's durability, since it now is on equal footing with the prowler for duability, but that lower durability made it's boost less important. Also didn't help that the vanguard had it's top speed raised. In short, it was a net nerf to durability. On the flip side, it's HESH cannon became a complete monster. It had the same splash damage profile as the vanguards HESH cannon, with a higher fire rate, and a marginally better sustained direct fire DPS. Once again, the VS had gained an infantry demolishing machine. And then that cannon got nerfed into the ground because of it.

    Since that cannon was the only thing that was really keeping the magrider afloat, the tank has slipped away. And this is where a lot of the other problems with the VS, including generally mediocre faction top guns for the harasser and magrider have kicked in. In short, it's a faction without identity, and that really does make for a poor experience.

    At this point, I feel the magrider does need some work. Part of me want's to suggest a health buff to return it to it's middle of the road durability status, but given the NC ******** about repair times anyways, I think the better path would be to raise the tanks hull traverse speed, and improve it's top strafe speed and strafe acceleration, and probably raising it's top speed. Possibly reworking the HESH cannon into a sort of low damage, fast firing cannon may be needed as well.

    The VS MAX is currently in the same bin as the TR MAX. A unit that is just barely decent a best, mainly because it's faction ability makes it more vulnerable to it's biggest weaknesses, without sufficiently bolstering the MAX suit to compensate. Knowing the current status of C4, I think that C4 remains the place to start. In short, make C4 resist from ordinance armour be passive for all MAX units.

    Besides this, a faction top gun buff round may be in order. The Proton is tricky. The last thing I want is for it to return to it's old self where it had good direct damage to vehicles, but I think the best approach right now is a fire rate buff. That should get it back in line with the fury and bulldog. The aphelion needs its elevation limit raised to 60 degrees, and then it should be alright, at least for now. The Saron... maybe a minor reload buff, but it's the most viable option right now so I would want to avoid to many changes.

    The trick is to give power back to the VS without resurrecting their old problems.
    • Up x 2
  8. LordKrelas

    I'm little disturbed you want to Buff VS's Saron, with a reload buff.
    Given, is that weapon not preforming well enough? Actual question.
    As that's a Precise long-range AV weapon without any projectile-drop, that also has the ability to rapid-fire burst up-close to front-load an entire alpha strike into a target.

    As well, wouldn't it really help, that while adjusting these top-Guns for VS
    That we adjust NC's top-guns, and change the Shield to something that isn't dominating in 1v1 & leaves 'the tank dead without it.'
    As NC's top-guns are also preforming horridly across the board, past the MJ, generally on a Harasser.

    -- I do agree on most of the logic to how & why VS is in this state however.
    And of course, why there is hestitation on health: As yes, NC complains about repair-times.
    As it has the slowest recovery: Attrition against the fastest tank with the highest DPS is a real threat.
    As is a vehicle able to bypass cover entirely, disengage & re-engage, whom can recover to full faster, allowing them to repeatedly fire faster & more often, while also return to the battle sooner, preventing the recovery of the Vanguard.
  9. Blam320

    If we're going to nerf the Vanguard's shield, I would change it so it's more of a NMG or Adrenaline Shield - it depletes while active and as the tank takes damage, and recharges when not in use. Or, make it an extra layer of HP that can be broken. Right now, the "flat resistance increase" for several seconds make the Vanguard unstoppable when it's up, which we want to avoid. Possibly allow Ransack to restore ability energy/reduce ability cooldowns on vehicle kills.

    I would personally apply the same change to the NC MAX's shield ability; make it a barrier with a health pool that can be worn away at and broken.
    • Up x 1
  10. LordKrelas

    TLDR;, of this entire bit of mine
    It's just an endless cycle, if we keep NC's ability to be a literal polar opposite of TR's.
    As it either eclipses it, or is eclipsed:
    In Both cases, this Screws VS in direct ability as they have the only non-combat-specific ability.
    So we need to change NC's, as it's obviously been an logical issue.

    I rather just make it not a shield, or related to it: As it's either really good to where it stacks the deck, or it's tactically worthless.
    So far, TR has the Direct-DPS Amplifier, VS is a tactical mobility.
    NC's shield, will basically be a health booster or durability Booster; The Direct counter-part to TR's.
    Which either puts it drastically ahead of VS, or nullified entirely by TR, with the Shield being (as shown by the past & present versions) more so valuable in the 1v1, making everything else about the tank less, so it's less murderous head-on.

    Now with your idea, It's interesting, but still puts it in:
    Either Directly counters (or is countered) TR's ability, and VS's ability isn't tied to direct-combat qualities.
    I've a few vague idea's of ways, that aren't directly opposite to TR's, nor solely combat-related strictly.
    As it's always going to compete or clash with TR's direct firepower abilities, while VS doesn't have something to match.
    So, if it's able to counter or deflect TR even a little, it's likely eclipsing VS's magrider's firepower.
    Which tends to result, in the Vanguard not being able to reliably have firepower, as then the Shield's effects make that Further ******** to fight against. Due to the Shield, being what the tank is balanced around.
    Which is really not helpful outside of Duels, in practical terms: Which the shield dominates hard. (dueling)

    --- Thought 1)
    Say perhaps, we move away , for NC, to a Group-Benefit kind of ability.
    Say, a Vanguard's ability generates a bubble that properly effects allies but not itself
    (so teamwork allows it to actually work properly)
    Say the bubble, buff something about these allies, for a set period if they were near the tank, during a pulse.
    We could have this generate a regenerative barrier much like your reference to overshields, around allied forces.
    It could be vehicles, could be infantry, could be both, or only-one.
    Alone, this ability doesn't effect direct-combat with the tank itself, it allows the tank however to reinforce a defense or offense team's survival , if used properly, for the benefit of the team.

    --- Thought 2)
    What about an ability that essentially forces a fortification that allied infantry & vehicles can hide behind, with the tank gaining a slight resistance, but is immobile.
    Allowing Vanguards to establish light-footholds with their Tanks.
    Archer rounds could ignore the barriers, passing right though, but small arms would be blocked.
    The static requirement, could be amplified so it's not able to dominate 1v1's, like the present shield, IE become an even more problematic thing, without making it near suicide to use.

    --- Thought 3)
    While active, the vehicle upon taking AV damage, sends out a pulse of repairing nanites to allies but not the tank itself.
    This effect does not stack with others, preventing the Self-repairing zerg from hell.
    While useless alone, this effect could be paired with other passives & a slow-down on the vehicles' speed.
    Allowing it, to reinforce allied advances without dominating solo or group-combat by its existence.

    In short, I find the direct survival-related ability that has more promise in Duels, than team-based situations, with it directly countered or countering TR's own ES Tank Ability, to cause numerous issues.
    If it does counter TR or the inverse, then It's rock & paper situation; Except VS's ability isn't set-up to be Scissors.
    And that tends to suck, as then it's TR armor wins against NC, and VS armor wins against TR, when it's 3-way War.
    Right now, as in the past as well, NC's shield has competed with TR's raw Firepower & abilities tailored to increase it.
    NC's shield, in all variants, has served when available to directly change the outcome of a Duel, in their favor always.
    While on the battlefield outside it, to be drastically less effective -- And it can't be better, as it already dominates duels.
    While TR's Firepower has at some points, nearly eclipsed' the shield's ability, when the Prowler would already dominate the Vanguard entirely without it -- so it's a direct contest of whom is eclipsed.

    While VS is sitting there, with the least direct-combat ability possible.
    NC's is defense, TR's is offense, and VS was mobility.
    TR \ NC, are basically nullifying each other, or erasing one or the other hard; While VS competes with both.
    TR's firepower if able to erase NC, erases VS. Leading to victory.
    If NC's shield can withstand TR, it can withstand VS. Leading to victory.
    When VS fights either, it's directly against Raw-Firepower or Raw-Durability.
  11. frozen north

    To be fair, im a little out of touch with the exact quality of the VS top guns. All I know for certain is the proton is rarely used, and the aphelion has received a fair bit of criticism.

    Right now, I think the only reason the top guns are generally viewed as being poor is because the vulcan still has it's range buff in effect from last update. Since it's getting nerfed back to normal next patch according to the PTS, I suspect not much will change for the other faction top guns. The NC ones are less a case of being bad in my book, and more just that they are overly specialized with the exception of the MJ.

    And yes, the inevitable issue of the NC shield. I feel it should either remain as is, capitalizing on making the vanguard a solid solo fighter, or be adjusted to resemble the heavy assaults over shield ( toggle, with limited available energy. Probably an activation delay as well to prevent it from being abused). However, if the NC gets the vangaurd shield converted to a toggle ability, I want the TR to get anchored mode back for the prowler, but I digress.
  12. frozen north

    My personal opinion is that each tank, when properly employed, should be perfectly able to counter each other. In my book right now however, the vanguard is definitely the top tank. I say this because, well, based on both deploy rates and combat experience, not to mention some math, the vanguard beats every opponent.

    The TLDR version is that in any duel situation where both tanks have fronts facing each other, nothing will beat a vanguard so long as it has it's shield available. The Prowler was not even guaranteed when it could achieve a 48% reload speed buff with lock down, let alone the current 30% for 15 seconds. And I would personally say it's a case of shield counters the DPS buff.

    Look, I realize building tanks specifically for duels is not ideal. But... I think they need to have abilities that suit dueling as well. Plus, dueling accounts for a majority of tank loadouts these days.

    You are completely correct on each tanks approach. NC are defence, TR damage, and VS mobility.

    As it stands, the magrider needs the most work. It either needs an overhaul to be between it's opponents ( a mix of defense and offence), or it needs to have it's strengths capitalized upon, and have it became evasive enough to be considered defensive, or at least enough to be a serious ambush threat.

    And while I realize this next bit is controversial, I think the TR should re-acquire anchored modes old self as well, if only to keep them from risking being out classed if the magrider does become viable against the vanguard again.
  13. LordKrelas

    VS's Top-guns, specifically the Saron is brutally effective.
    The Proton for the Magrider, is slightly worse than the Harasser if I recall, but that's the mobility.
    Aphelion's main issue is the ability is not practical to rely on.

    Good way to put it about NC's top-guns.

    I rather it not be a shield at all.
    As I say in another thread, about making it not a "Sololist tool" or 'dueling' tool, in a team-work game, let alone when it basically means, as shown, the Vehicle's capabilities have to be limited due to this severe advantage in solo fights.
    Since it also means, that the vehicle is balanced for... when the shield is available.
    Which means it's entirely screwed when the shield isn't, and can't be, due to the Shield.

    Dueling isn't practical, for a Tank's specialty
    Let alone, when it means the Entire tank's power has to be balanced for a short duel between two tanks alone.
    Let alone, with this entire dueling characteristic reliant on a single ability being charged \ available, for the tank's power.
    Prowler's aren't balanced on Lock-down being always available, nor the modern Barrage.
    Vanguards however have to be, and it's near impossible, with the Shield.

    There is abilities able to function alone, and there is abilities that dominate solo-combat but fail when not alone.
    Barrage scaled up with Numbers, Magburn doesn't really, and the Shield does not at all.

    The "Nothing will beat the shielded Vanguard" is the point
    If TR or VS, could, the entire shield is basically useless; As at the BS level, in single-combat, the shield dies.
    Without the Shield, which the tank already sacrificed for, the Tank will already lose.
    Which is why the Shield, which is defining the tank, has to change away from defining the entire tank's ability to operate.

    The Prowler, without Barrage, is still fully effective; It amplifies the tank.
    Barrage is similar, Your Prowler isn't reliant on having it ready -- as it doesn't need it to compete.
    The Vanguard, without the Shield, is basically naked, if it engages another MBT, let alone a Prowler.
    Magburn, by comparison to these, isn't involved in direct combat application.

    NC's ability should not force the fight into a situation where the fight is won or lost, based on the ability being available.
    Imagine if the Prowler, if it couldn't lock-down or could lock-down, determined if the Prowler won or lost their fight.
    Now imagine it with a cooldown: Now the Prowler's entire ability to win or lose, is based on their ability, if it was like this.
    That's what the Shield is: With it, it dominates the solo-combat hard. Without it, the Tank is basically lost.

    The Magrider is a complicated vehicle.
    And yes, it needs work.
    I suggest adjusting the NC shield into entirely different, and then adjusting the Magburn & Magrider afterwards.
    This way, it can be adjusted to the new balance between the three, using the Prowler as the static constant.

    (Also Barrage wins out over Lockdown pretty easily. Oddly enough, my Prowler was able to do both one day.)
  14. frozen north

    While I can see where your coming from with a complete removal of the shield, I doubt it will happen. Still, you make a valid point.

    Personally, I still vastly prefer lockdown mode. I realize this may not be everyone, but I personally preferred having an on tap mode switch over a cooldown based power spike. Again, not everyone, but for me, I find barrages lower potential firepower to be seriously limiting. They could have at least let players choose, and added new options for everyone.

    But back to the topic at hand, the magrider definitely needs work, on that we are agreed.
  15. Lee Weldon

    I think they should just give the people what they want, it's been the same recurring arguments for like forever.
    buff the magrider
    nerf the scythe
    nerf the NC max
    buff anti vehical infantry capabilities.
    nerf the sunderers anti vehicle capabilties
    If they did all of these things, the game would be in a much better state.
    • Up x 1
  16. ArtyIsBalanced

    And thats the point where this discussion ends and begins at the very same time. HOW do you want to change the Magrider without changing its concept or making it fully OP? Why should we nerf the Scythe? Its the most balanced ESF. It would be helpful, if you would bring up concrete suggestions instead of just throwing empty phrases into the thread.
  17. Trigga

    You disregarded my entire post and clearly didnt read it.
    Not suprise really considering the quality of your posts on this forum.

    Have a good 1, dont let the vanguard bugs bite you in the night.
  18. adamts01

    Pretty much, but the Sunderer did get hit pretty hard already. Its top guns don't hold a candle to those same guns on any other vehicle. Combine that with the nerf to proximity repair between Sunderers and they're no longer a match for tanks, not even close.

    I don't know about the Mag Rider either. It can't go toe to toe against another tank, but no other tank has its versatility. Only aircraft can get to the places that thing can get to. VS cries about that not being too big of a deal, but it's pretty game changing getting a HESH/PPA tank where it simply shouldn't be.