[Suggestion] DBG take a look at VS and fix them

Well I actually like using the EM1 so I feel kind of jipped when I see the more powerful TR/VS equivilents of the 143 damage models. I like the NS-11P... You can kind of see where I'm going with this. Then those minute differences on the ADS movement speed of a lot of viable vs guns. Call it bland, call it lacking but keeping the guns strength up until 40m on most gun variants makes it more useful in most situations. The orion and carv are just simply great LMG's. While also cyclone is great, it has a bit more well rounded stats over a lot of other SMG's, how about sirius's kill potential at 6m or eridani within 20m, Though I really want to try the tempest, the skorpios kind of looks like it'd perform simillarly to the cyclone.

Sometimes you can, but here is the problem:
DBG's balancing ideology is revolved around a catchphrase "there are no direct upgrades, only sidegrades". This means that most weapons of the same class usually have similar "stats budget", but with faction-specific flavor: NC weapons hit harder, TR weapons have larger mags and RoF, and VS are kinda in the middle(?). When VS gets a copy of genuine TR or NC gun, it still has to be a bit different, so some of the useful stats are usually traded for less useful ones: projectile velocity for or max damage range for reload speed, lower mag size or unusual recoil pattern. And once again, VS infantry guns are generally on par with NC or TR variants in terms of accuracy (CoF, bloom, recoil pattern).

This is why VS players sometimes get a feeling like they are given second-hand options.

Maybe it's my lack of experience, but I heavily dislike Magrider in it's current state: slow, bulky, can't turn primary gun separately from the hull, has huge projectile drop, unlike Vanguard and Prowler has no built-in special ability. It was way better back in 2012/2013, but maybe mostly because the grass was greener and I was younger =)

Well, VS and TR consider NC MAXes OP, and it's natural for NC to defend themselves. However if you remove their OHK shotguns, NC MAXes will still be a tiny bit better thanks to their shield ability.

As I mentioned before, most primary guns without suppressor have no bullet drop at 100-120m distance. This is where vast majority of all infantry engagements occur. Heat mechanics is a much more substantial bonus, however. If only more VS weapons got it...

Well, the faction with cutting edge alien technologies (plasma science, boooo!) uses refurbished NC and TR guns at best. Most unique stuff we got has been "rebalanced" one way or another and now we are the faction that uses NS weapons the most for a reaon. This also leaves a stain on faction's reputation.

I'm not saying that devs have any kind of anti-Vanu bias, just stating that over the course of PS2 history this faction is kinda overnerfed and is extremely unremarkable despite it's "sci-fi" portraying. New players join VS in expectation for true hovertanks (that sink in water and flip over a small bush), hovercrafts (but get a pretty generic ESF), laz0rz and pazzmagunz (with standard piu-piu guns instead) and then leave into TR or NC fr obvious reasons.

This is weird: I usually play in prime-time and can tell for sure that usually we win roughly 1/3 of alerts.

Sorry to break it to you but the Bishop is a rifle. We are comparing the mechanics, not the weapons.

We are also not describing the usefulness of the mechanics either. Penetration on the Bishop is about as worthless as anything and is only slightly less worthless on the Aphelion. That is irrelevant to this conversation.

Got any evidence, reasoning, or logical arguments as to why you feel this way about the VS' equipment?

Heh. I can't say I know enough about the Magrider and it's PS2 history to really dispute that.

I think replacing the shotguns would be better in general. I do agree the shield is a big help though. But in my personal experience at least it doesn't matter what the MAX has in short range, usually either the MAX or I slaughter the other without taking much damage, but sometimes it much more drawn out. It really seems to rely on the area and skill and experience of the MAX more than the guns do, in my opinion.

Maybe I'm just an anomaly, but I often find myself aiming high to hit with my guns. I tend to shoot at anyone and everyone that I might kill so I frequently fire from various distances. Guns like the SAW and the Bishop obviously have longer range than some guns but I still do sometimes fire with others where I simply watch the bullets fall. Carbines always surprise me how short their effective ranges really can be sometimes. Suppressed guns especially so, though perhaps not to the same extent as before the suppressor buffs.

I looked but unfortunately Dasanfall doesn't stats per faction with NS infantry weapons, only vehicle weapons. A cursory glance doesn't seem to indicate notably higher or lower users for VS equipment than the other two factions though. There doesn't seem to be any evidence to actually suggest this is true, but as they say the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

VS does get over nerf'd at lot, you'd think the devs would have learned not to do that by now. But I don't really think many players are sticking around for very long regardless of faction. Might be underwhelmed by VS and go to NC or TR and not do much better and simply quit. There doesn't seem to be very many NC veterans around at least.

Statistically the VS has always won the most alerts with the TR close behind. NC has always dragged way behind the curve since the beginning of the game.

@Campagne
When I see you're complaning about the gladius( which is the most op smg) and you said VS have the best lmg ( while they have the worst ). You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

Can we have ppl playing 3 factions instead of 1 and spreading BS in this forum about the 2 others.
Objectivity guys...

The Hipfire-less Gladius, over the Cyclone... what? How exactly is it beating the Cyclone?
VS has the worst? Then what do you call the best?
The Orion is far from the worst, let alone the Beetle; The new MAW is certainly far from the worst..
If you say the 'Promise', I will remind you that it's based on a VS gun.. and does the worst between the two.

Irony.

Yeah the gladius is on part with cyclone, that's the 2 best smg of the game and when i see ppl complain about it being trash, well they are clueless.

And Yes VS lmg are the worst( i'm talking about top lmg), Orion and Bettlegeuse are far behind the MSR and the Anchor, i still don't get why ppl think they are OP. Solide in good hands for sure, but trash when you face a good skill player with MSR or Anchor.
Don't talk about the MAW, just a bad Anchor with random horizontal hop hop recoil, far from being considered top lmg in this game.

Orion was great...but those days are long gone. Some people just never got over that. Betelgeuse has no relevant statistics cause it is(and can) only be used by a small number of very, very, very experienced players due to the unlocking mechanic which obviously screws up any and all statistics.

The mags main cannon has the most drop, but its top guns have the least.
The vanguards main cannon has the least drop, but its top guns have the most.
Are TR in the middle here, seems that way quickly thinking about it without checking?

Without the shield a mag can destroy a vanguard, with it not so much.
Without magburn the vanguard can catch a fleeing magrider, with it not so much.
Prowler can destroy them both and catch them both.

Just a quick note, the Vanguard has no in-built ability, only the prowler has 'Anchor' inbuilt.

Having said all that, i believe the tanks are in a fairly decent spot right not, positioning and awareness are what really decides tank fights, getting the first shot from an advantageous position is key, much more prevalent than any stats differences imo.

And you don't think that it's a bit unfair if a tank wins a 1/1 and is still on par in a 2/2? I mean to make up for the disadvantage it should have a serious advantage in a 2/2 then, right? That's called balancing.
So without the shield a magrider CAN(not will) destroy a vanguard. Problem is: The vanguard can pop the shield at will...and in a 1vs1 you only need it once. Just don't pop is before you really need it.
So you say the magrider needs magburn to get an advantage in FLEEING? Now that's what I always wanted as skill...being the fastest in FLEEING. That's how we win battles today...by fleeing.
Positioning and awareness are great...but we are talking about a leveled playing field...so both players have to have the same there. I mean, you don't want to face and equally skilled player and sum your death up with the words "well, if I would have been BETTER than him then I would have won...but since we are equal I will always lose. I deserve to lose.". As long as the Vanguard has the shield it does not matter who got the first shot by the way...it may matter for prowler vs magrider...but not for vanguard.

Unfairness does not start when you lose 100 of 100 fights against an equally skilled player. It starts at 51 vs 49...and gets game breaking serious at 60 to 40.
You don't wanna hit on a skilled vanguard as magrider...not in a 2/2 and definitely not in a 1/1. There are some situation where you can use the terrain to your advantage...but your opponent knows that and if he ain't falling for hybris and run into a trap then you got a problem.

You best be jestin', because that's obviously bull****.

If by some strange twist of fate you're serious I'd say go play with the Gladius for a while and then come back. Record it too, if you can.

I dont get what youre trying to say in your first sentence, no tank auto wins anything, i made that clear in my last post.

If a vanguard simply 'pops' its shield at any point during a fight, its just wasted up to 99% of it.
You only get the full benefit if you pop it before the first enemy shell hits you and your tank is at full health when you pop it.
Otherwise you can wait till half way through the fight and only get 50% of its effectiveness.
So saying 'dont pop it before you need it' is not very good advice considering how it works. The best idea is to pop it instantly and get the full benefit, the problem with that is 90% of tank fights arnt <50m apart, and almost all tank drivers will utilise cover for when reloading and therefore be near to cover at all times. So if you pop it instantly and the enemy falls back or 'flees' and then re-engages after the shield drops, youve just wasted your shield completely and in all probability will die to the opposing tanks superior DPS.
Infact any time you pop a shield and you arnt actively taking hits, youre wasting your ability.
Its very similar to the TRs overdrive ability, if i see a glowing red tank, i take cover till it stops glowing, TR ability nullified completely.

I was not suggesting advantages in any areas, i was underlining the fact that the mag isnt the slowest tank when making use of its ability. You cant discount one ability in one area, and then say the other tank is OP due to its ability.
It was a direct reponse to the poster i replied to saying 'slowest' tank.
Besides that fact, in almost every play session youll experience a moment where youve overstretched, when youve been ambushed, when youve taken damage from that lib above that you couldnt possibly have factored into the fight your having with those 2 lightnings because you couldnt see it till it hit you.
There is always a reason to fall back, a reason to say 'im getting the f out of here'. The magburn is a hell of a good item to have in this scenario.
If you overstretch in a van, youre dead, there is no escape as the van truely is just too slow to retreat.
Winston Churchill would like a word with you about 'fleeing' or as we call it 'tactical retreating'.
But seriously, you dont just push forwards in vehicles, its a tactical situation that requires forethought, its hardly ever about pure DPS or pure health.
Dont forget the van takes longer to repair than the other tanks, that can be used to the advantage of the other tank drivers.

I know of plenty of mag drivers on Miller, they dont lose 49/100 fights with vanguards.
And i know plenty of Vanguard drivers who dont win 51/100.

Your last sentence reads 'if the enemy isnt willing to fight you when you have the advantage you have a problem' i agree completely.
Why cant that apply the other way?
Cant help but think this thread is somehow related to the shotgun one, people seem to pay little attention to their surroundings, poorly plan their attack or defense of an area; then blame the weapons / vehicles that were used correctly against them when they die.

(tried to reply to each of your points, reads back a bit messy, apologies)

I've run the numbers, and it doesn't make sense, but I love that gun. All I can figure is that first 200 to the head knocks their aim off enough that I end up winning. Either that or one shot to the dome taking half their health makes them panic and screw up. Plus, if the target jukes to the side the Gladius doesn't dump half a mag in to thin air like the Armistice. I don't know, it just works for me and my potato aim. And I still see plenty of them out there when fighting against NC, so other guys seem to like it as well.

The TTK is only 0.02s behind the Cyclone and the low RPM means the COF/Bloom won't be as crippling as it looks. 22 extra RPM doesn't look like much on many guns but when your bullets do 200 damage each it puts it on par with a 167/652 weapon. When you also factor in it has 0.24 v.recoil and 1.6xFSR you start to realise what makes this weapon so nice to use. That's a v.recoil you see on weapons with 800+ RPM (and even then the recoil can be higher) and a FSR you see on mid/long range weapons. It all adds up to a neat lil' heavy hitter.

It is also nice to see others having noticed the benefit of high alpha on 1st hit.

In other words, you're not alone is what I'm saying.

What I tried to say is that a better primary is NOT balanced by giving the other a better secondary. Cause for the primary you only need one player...for the secondary you need 2. You always have one player...you do not always have 2. If you are better with the primary and the other is better with the secondary but combined they are equal...then you have a situation where you have an advantage as single player and an equal match with 2 players. So the other NEVER got an advantage.....which means overall you got a clear advantage.

Yeah, you may not take full advantage of the shield if you do not pop it right at the start of the fight. But who cares? It does not matter if you win with 30% health or with 5%...all that matters is that you are still alive while the other is dead. So you do not need to take full advantage...and as a result you only pop the shield when you know that this is the end game. No early popping...no retreat for the other...game over. If you pop your shield in a situation where you do not have to then you are doing it wrong. You can use a hill to repair instead of using the shield too(most NC don't do that tho cause the shield comes in handy and they are sure that they gonna win the fight anyway. That's the hybris that I mentioned and that ends up in a lot of dead vanguards cause they do not have shield when they really need it then. I see so many shields in situation where it is really not needed, it's hilarious.).

If you are facing 2 lightnings or a lib and you think you can use your magburner and get away then those lightnings or Lib are really, really, really bad players. Magburner is one directional after all and the magrider does not love rear shots either. And let's not forget that the magrider can not shoot while fleeing....cause your gun is pinned to the front. You are basicly free game unless you find a hill that the lightnings can't follow(the Lib will kill you no matter what. You can't use your main gun against air)...but that should better be right next to you cause the magburner doesn't last long.
If you overstretch in a vanguard you still have the shield. That is usually better than magburning right into the enemy. ;-)

Tactical retreat works in case of a tactical scenario. But in this game tactical retreats do not really happen. Some retreat, the rest get killed...then the zerg follows you and kills you too(especially if they are faster than you...and the magrider is the slowest tank). I don't think I ever witnesses a tactical retreat in this game that worked... ;-)

The Van needs longer to repair. Seriously, after I killed someone I do not care if I need 5 seconds longer to repair than he would. How many fights did you see that got won by who was faster to repair??? I don't think I have ever seen a fight where both shoot at each other...then repair, then shoot, then repair, then shoot...and it finally is won cause the vanguard can't heal up completely. That kind of situation you may find with turrets of all kinds(cause they can't do anything except shoot and get repaired)...but not in a fight of two tanks.

The difference between the 2 situations is that one needs to stay on long range to win while the other is much better at CQC. Now this game is not about eternal retreats tho...the distance you can retreat before the other is at your next capture point is very, very limited. You then have the choice: Keep retreating...then the other wins(by taking the point)...or go CQC...which means the other will win too. And yes, that is similar to shotguns. You can in most cases force CQC in this game by using obstacles in a smart way. The long range only has the option to stay on some hill or something like that which means he is far away from the important action...not to mention that he usually is pretty easy to pick up for air then. Long range is for stat padding but you usually do not make the big points...and that's just not my playstyle. I want a tank that is a tank..and I want to be in the middle of the action and not talk about "smart retreats to win a fight".

If it's the 200 damage then SAW, AC-X11 and other 200/~500s would still hold the exact same advantage. Same goes for RoF and any advantages one might squeeze out of that.

According to Dasanfall the Gladius' number of unique users is 4107. This is lower than both of the NC's other SMGs and is below average compared to the other types of weapons especially when the variety of other guns available is taken into consideration. Quite frankly I expect it's merely an observation bias. It's actually ever so slightly more likely to see EM1s than it is to see a Gladius.

WHERE'S THE LAMB SAUCE: http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/items/weapons

Again, our numbers don't agree but it's not important for these purposes. For the record however, my numbers say the Gladius kills 0.046s slower than the Cyclone against nanoweave or with headshots while having an identical TTK against standard targets with bodyshots and 0.05s slower than the Blitz against nanoweave and 0.017s with headshots.

The CoF is most often going to be worse. Not only does the Gladius have higher bloom but it also starts with a higher CoF. Add in the fact that it demands a much greater accuracy than the Cyclone and it quickly becomes apparent why the Gladius is not good. It needs much more accuracy to deal less damage in the same period of time while inherently having considerably worse accuracy in all stances whether ADSing or not.

Within the incredibly short ranges where the Gladius will be effective recoil has almost no notable impact. It could kick harder than a SAW and swing in the hands like a Promise before the scaling kicks in and "real-world" accuracy would not be significantly different at all.

Again, having high damage per shot is not a trait unique to the Gladius. An AC-X11 would be very comparable to the Gladius and would be better in almost ever major way. If only looking at SMGs, the Cyclone would still be a better choice as it could emerge from stealth and kill faster while still dealing a third of a player's health with a headshot just as the Gladius can.

I couldn't disagree more on v.recoil not mattering for the range as it makes hip fire and ADSing that more smooth and effortless. The SAW would be hilariously OP if it had 0.24 v.recoil as it would pretty much be a laser pointer. There's definitely a difference...

Also, I can't use a LMG or carbine on an infiltrator though and I wouldn't really consider a SMG on another class. Hell, if the Gladius, for whatever reason, was made to be as effective as a carbine then I would expect DGB to buff every other SMG to compensate. Not going to be held responsible for the flood of tears that would emerge though... I can already hear cries in the distance, "infiltratorside.... SMGside.... NERF THE CLOAK!!!!... Remove SMGs from HAs!!!"

The Saw is arguably the best LMG in the game. I know it's my favorite by a large margin. I do prefer the gr22 and gdf7 for the other classes, but I think those guns are also on a tier of their own. I still love my Reaper dmr though. I just love NC guns.

This is not a fair comparison. The SAW has an effective range practically as far as infantry can render when used correctly. The Gladius just doesn't carry damage over range even if it had no recoil and perfect accuracy. A (slugless) shotgun could have no recoil and would be just as effective as before, just like the Gladius.

SMGs can be used on any class and therefore can compete with any type of weapon for the primary slot. Personally I frown upon SMG infiltrators so I aurax'd the Gladius and three other SMGs as a light and heavy assault. An SMG should offer me something a carbine or LMG can't, and to an extent the Cyclone and Blitz do offer their own advantages and incentives to use them. (Being tight hipfire with a higher than average DPS and tight hipfire with a massive RoF and large magazine). But the Gladius is just worse than an AC-X11 and especially a SAW.

To be fair, stealth is very overpowered.

I could concede to the possibility of the SAW being the best NC LMG, but certainly not the best in the game. I do like my GODSAW though. Don't personally care for high RoF guns very much, though there are a few I like. Personally my favorites are the SAW and 167/600s like the Gauss Rifle and Merc.

It all depends on play style. For cqc the Gladius is better than any other 200 damage gun due to its hip fire accuracy and rate of fire. I personally don't use the Gladius when I have access to ARs or Carbines, mostly because my twitch aim isn't good enough for those close fights. But as far as SMGs are concerned, it's still my favorite. I'd definitely take it over anything the TR has. I haven't used any VS SMGs, but the way bloom works compared to damage and rate of fire, the 143 guns seem like they'd suit my ADS style better than the 125 guns TR has.

I think bringing a 500 RPM gun to CQC is probably the wrong way to start. The Gladius may have better hipfire than the other 200/~500s, but it's still weak enough that personally I always ADS'd with it anyway. Sure a laser could make the hipfire almost decent but I think it's better to play to a weapon's strengths rather support it's weaknesses. Not to say that the Gladius' ADS is by any means a "strength."

I think the good old Cyclone is still my favorite. Just a good fun gun. Blitz was fun too, but not what I'm used too, hipfiring high RoF guns isn't my usual playstyle. I don't think I'd like any of the TR's SMGs given the 125 damage model yet again, but I'd take the Canis. Sirius is just a Blitz wrapped in spandex.