[Suggestion] DBG take a look at VS and fix them

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by BorgUK1of9, Sep 22, 2018.

  1. Campagne

    It is my opinion, I say that everywhere. In my thread I even say it is just my opinion multiple times. As for the link itself, he stated he had no idea how one could feel so about the Gladius so rather than repost the entire thread explaining exactly why and how I came to such a conclusion which also contained statistical information and contending viewpoints.

    522 RPM is quite low for a CQC weapon. Add it the fact that is has the lowest ADS accuracy of any automatic primary in the game and the fact that it's hipfire is a joke for the SMG class of weapon second only to the just bad Tengu as well as the fact that in a totally theoretical engagement where user performance is unrealistically high it cannot outperform its direct competition under any equal circumstances. Stand still, don't stand still, doesn't matter it won't hit anything that fights back. Hell, it'd struggle to hit a distant motion spotter. It is my opinion to say the Gladius is bad, but it is objective to say the Gladius is the worst NC SMG in the majority of important metrics and indeed the least accurate automatic primary under full consideration and furthermore inferior to all other 200/~500 guns for general purpose use.

    Cyclone is great but overrated, Gladius can't really do much with the pathetic DPS increase. One almost could not even consciously notice a 22 RPM difference. An AC-X11 would honestly probably be better.

    Again, in some of the most important metrics it is objectively inferior to the Cyclone. It is less accurate both in ADS and while hipfiring and it simply cannot ever kill faster and in the strong majority of cases kills slower. The Gladius is just genuinely a terrible weapon both in my opinion and when empirically measured against its direct competition for the slot. I would rather not have it at all personally.

    The numbers just don't agree.

    But also it could be significantly better in terms of accuracy both ADS and hipfire, TTK under any standard situations, any consideration to its range and lethality over said range, Hell, even the cert costs to kit it out fully is just bad.
  2. pnkdth

    Cyclone TTK : 0.55s
    Gladius TTK : 0.57s

    Dat 0.02 seconds difference... Meanwhile, 0.24 vertical recoil + a measly 1.6x FSR with a low ROF/200DMG weapon. It will have a worse side-by-side comparison in certain stats since many values are calculated per bullet. Slapping the same stats to a bullet hose type weapon and it be near impossible to control. It is a SMG though, a usually worse kind of carbine with better hip fire made for CQC.

    That said, if you don't like it you don't like it.
  3. Zak Preston

    It's really interesting to read how NC complain that top-2 SMG is worse than top-1 SMG which both belong to NC faction.
  4. JibbaJabba

    ZOE max is still used. Saying otherwise is being disingenuous.

    That said, the ZOE max needs some love or a full overhaul. There is pretty good consensus across all factions about this I believe.

    Same thing with the Lancer. Pretty universally viewed as needing some tweaks. That one is a bit tougher. The fix for it typically revolves around range issues. Making such a tweak could lead to asymmetrical rendering between attacker and target.
  5. SpeedFreakPS0NE

    In regards to the Lancer
    The best was watching a live stream from Wrel where he was trying to destroy a Flash at close range with the Lancer, it really demonstrated how pathetic the Lancer is in its current state, yet there is still nothing done about it or ZOE which is even in a worse state IMHO.
  6. Campagne

    Again, the main idea here is that it's slower at the absolute best case scenario. (Our numbers don't seem to agree, but regardless the point stands.) It will never be faster or better than a Cyclone (or Blitz in most cases) while still having a higher demand for user skill in being significantly more punishing for misses while still being the least accurate primary with the worst hipfire of all SMGs second only to the NSX Tengu while offering nothing beneficial or unique to the SMG weapon class and nothing meaningful to the 200/~500 damage model.

    An accuracy-demanding gun with no accuracy. That's helpful.

    Furthermore, as many forumsiders are so keen to say vertical recoil often means very little and out to 50 meters as an absolute maximum range where kills are still a "practical" possibility it won't matter. (Probably shouldn't actually try firing at such distances when possible though. Miss more often than not and even then it's down to 112 damage per shot.) Horizontal recoil however is the worst of all 200/~500 guns and while low for SMGs is still in need of a grip for such ranges. There are just too many better choices for every possible need.

    I don't just dislike it, I hate it! Loathe it!

    What do you mean? The Blitz has hardly been mentioned at all so far. :p
  7. pnkdth

    What numbers? I've only put forth TTK (the rest are just static stats).

    The Tengu is a weirdo shotgun thingy. Makes zero sense to compare those two.

    Vertical recoil matter at every range though the numbers significance vary depending on weapon. For instance, a TR high ROF weapon with the same v.recoil as the SAW would be insanely hard to control. The reason why I mentioning it in this case is the Gladius have 1) 522RPM 2) 0.24 v.recoil. 3) 1.6xFSR. This adds up to very smooth sailing since it has the v.recoil of usually higher ROF/lower DMG weapons, the RPM of high damage weapon and the FSR of a precision type weapon. The horizontal recoil does limit its range and I would not call it a mid range weapon. However, it does lend itself nice to hip fire and the ranges of where it is the most effective.

    All in all though. NC have three great SMGs. The Gladius might not be to your liking but does have competitive stats and DPS for where SMGs are used. If you hate it, so be it. Plenty of us who likes it a lot.
  8. Campagne

    Ah, sorry. Meant the TTK calculations from the Gladius thread. The numbers of got for that are different than those you've put forth, but again for all intents and purposes the difference are small enough to not change much as far as this discussion goes.

    I agree it's not really an SMG, but it is classified as one. Don't be distracted from the "of all SMGs" bit.

    Vertical recoil can absolutely matter but is most often more than controllable enough for most live gameplay. Can't triple-tap a head out to 300 meters with a SAW in full-auto but can still consistently keep the crosshairs on target in more realistic situations. However in the ranges where a Gladius could possibly have any effectiveness vertical recoil isn't really ever going to be much of an issue even if it kicked like a SAW.

    NC have two great SMGs. I'll be the first to admit I have a bias against the Gladius but there are truly few short range weapons which could not out-perform it. No shotguns, no carbines or ARs, maybe a few LMGs like EM1/Rhino, and maybe the Hailstorm and probably the Tengu. Probably not even any of the burst pistols either. It's "competitive" in the sense that it's not a flaregun but it's not something the "top-tier MLG" players are going to ever use.
  9. Rydenan

    VS is the only faction that has access to both of the "almighty" LMG damage models: 143/750 and 167/600.
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  10. FateJH

    The TR have the TMG-50 which is 167@10m 615m/s. Is that close enough?
  11. Zak Preston

    Which faction has the most best in class weapons?
    1. Pistol
    2. SMG
    3. Carbine
    4. ARs
    5. LMG
    6. Semi-auto rifles (Scout, Battle and Sniper rifles)
    7. Bolt-Action SRs
    8. Rocket Launcher
    I can say without a doubt that VS have the best ES semi-auto rifles, however NS-Vandal is still better.
    Now the same question about vehicles:
    1. Best Harasser gun
    2. Best MBT chassis
      1. Best MBT nosegun
      2. Best MBT top gun
    3. Best ESF chasis
      1. Best ESF AA gun
      2. Best ESF AI gun
      3. Best ESF AV gun
    Now let's answer these questions and this will also answer the question why VS pop is declining.
  12. Campagne

    1. TR
    2. NC
    3. Depends
    4. Depends
    5. Depends, probably VS
    6. VS
    7. VS (Phaseshift)
    8. TR

    1. TR
    2. TR
      1. TR
      2. TR
    3. Depends
      1. Dunno
      2. TR
      3. Dunno
    I fail to see your reasoning here.
  13. Zak Preston

    I'd say that the best carbine is NC's GD7F and the best AR is TR's Cycler or Reaper DMR (NC). I can't tell anything about BattleGose because I don't own it, but I also don't think it should be ranked at all. Among the standard LMGs Anchor looks the best for me at least.
    I strongly disagree that Phaseshift is the bests BASR in PS2: it pays heavy for it's heat mechanics and no bullet drop with low projectile speed and horse-like kicks. Most VS snipers prefer classic bolt-action rifles for a reason (which are 100% the same among all factions). The biggest problem with PS is that it takes a lot of time to accommodate it it's temper and drawbacks for almost no serious advantages over standard bolt-action variants. It's a sidegrade at very best.

    Out of all the list VS gets a lead only in 1 category. I think it speaks for itself more clearly and loudly than any words. Both for TR and NC this is fine, bu the while picture looks really grim for VS. In addition, most of VS infantry guns are downgraded copies of TR or NC ones (less damage per bullet, lower dps or dpm or even effective range), but also they lack unique features or are just ***** (like Canis).
  14. Campagne

    In a bizarre and totally unexpected turn of events I find myself reminding the forum that the Serpent still exists. Again. Like a GD-7F but with even less range and a 1.01s faster reload for CQC. But again, it all just depends doesn't it? I prefer the Mercenary by far personally. Ask me, it's the best NC carbine. Some people prefer other guns from other factions and damage models, hence the fact that for carbines, ARs, and LMGs it largely just depends on player preference.

    But to continue on for the sake of it, I also prefer the Gauss Rifle over the Reaper and the EM6 or SAW over Anchor. But in turn the MAW and MSW-R exist for anyone preferring the Anchor. It just depends on what the player wants.

    As for SRs, I would agree the Phaseshift is only a sidegrade but if we're comparing ES weapons and equipment we're not comparing the other four identical bolt-actions. Given the only ES snipers are Railjack, TRAP, and Phaseshift, I think the answer is pretty safe in the PS.

    Given this, the NC only holds one solid lead thanks solely to the Cyclone.

    I think you'll find this just isn't really true, at least not in most cases. The VS do have an overabundance of 143/~750 guns which can go either way compared to the NC & TR, but they aren't necessarily all better or worse. The Vanu also tend to have the most unique features, such as no projectile-drop, heat-based weaponry, and charge mechanics. TR has little truly unique and the NC's stuff usually gets stolen by the VS. :p (GODSAW AV damage mode --> Spiker, Bishop infantry penetration [with Sabot rounds] --> Aphelion.)

    Point being the VS aren't any worse off at all than the NC or TR are.
    • Up x 1
  15. asmodraxus

    [quote="NC's stuff usually gets stolen by the VS.(GODSAW AV damage mode [/quote]

    Technically due to the lack of AV rounds the VS never got their faction bonus from planetside 1 of the instant AV switch. The no bullet drop is paid for by slower projectile speed.

    Planetside 1's faction bonus was

    NC: Shotguns and more damage per round (slightly slower fire rate), more armor on the tank, Max bonus was a shield, Max AA was fire and forget missiles which had a VERY long range (they followed you all the way back to the warp gate and onto another continent, or at least if felt like that), slow lock on timer.
    TR: Machine guns and faster fire rate (cost was slightly worse CoF), second main gun and second gunner on MBT, Max ability was to lockdown (devs added overdrive eventually), Max AA was the terribad Bursters, but lockdown affected them so they could be used to "ambush" and virtually instagib aircraft especially as they was areas where max's could get above the flight ceiling.
    VS: Versatile weapons with a faster AV switch on all guns, no bullet drop (countered by 0 bullet penetration into water and slower projectiles) Mags second gun was driver controlled, least health, but fastest tank which could also go over water and could also go sideways to dodge shots, Max ability was jump jets so they could get to interesting places (however bases had doors with lock only openable by infantry), Max AA was a lock on missile that needed near constant lock.

    Lets see PS2 faction flavor

    NC much the same as Planetside 1 but no max lock on weapons
    TR see above but max lockdown doesn't affect AA
    VS well dropped the AV bullets (there goes the 'versatile' faction flavor), dropped the mags speed bonus (but hey it now has the same health as the prowler, just not the fire rate or DPS), dropped the mags water bonus (no water as of yet and thus no choke points, and no ability to bypass them), Max ability ditched in favor of an OP/UP speed bonus with a massive damage taken increase for a non existent damage dealt increase (but only within 10/50m otherwise its a damage decrease).

    With the MBT abilities being a cut and paste job from the Max abilities (technically its the other way round but the charge max ability (now removed) was common pool possibly because it was seen as OP) the Mag didn't get the suicide mode that the max gets (yes I know the Max's abilities in planetside 2 came after the MBT's) it gets a 1 second boost...

    So the VS faction bonus is kind of non existent other then middling infantry weapons, terrible side arms, a poor MBT (wrels mbt main gun stats show the mags main gun is somewhat lagging behind the others in terms of kills, non functional max ability

    Basically poor implementation at the start of the games life by not giving the VS proper flavor and turning them from mad scientists in the lore to religious fanatics doesn't help matters as well as not being able to create water (hint its a shader zone with a limited time bar which certain vehicles float over).
  16. Zak Preston

    Thath's the tragedy of the whole VS faction: everything we have unique is undertuned, bland and feels lackluster: hover tanks, PPA, Saron and so in and so on. All the rest e have are worse (sometimes slightly) versions of what NC or TR have already. Hence the feeling that VS is a kind of "second hand"/"poor stepchild" faction.
    Back in 2012 Magrider was an extremely fun and respected MBT, now people call it "heavy harasser" for a reason.

    Actually I do prefer Mercenary to GD7F as well. For years I believed in lies that "VS guns are the most accurate and have less recoil" until recently I've tried NC toon... First of all, most NC guns have extremely mild vertical recoil (if any on some guns), and the horizontal one is not that bad either. I felt cheated so bad...

    But here is the thing: Phaseshift is not better than standard BASRs by any means, nor it's strictly worse. It's just different.
    I wouldn't say that Railjack is that bad at all (bit TRAP truly is bad), especially with updated suppressors.

    I forgot to include MAXes.

    bland and boring copies of each other

    no projectile drop is useless unless you are shooting at 120+ meters distance.
    heat-based weapons are not common enough to say that's it's a common feature.
    charge mechanics? Do you mean Lancer?

    This is the problem: NC gets high damage per bullet and projectile speed, TR gets more dakka, VS gets... no bullet drop?.. heat mechanics?

    weren't Spiker and Aphelion released before Bishop and GODSAW respectively? :eek:

    • point is that VS doesn't have anything spectacular:
    • some VS weapons are direct copies from NC or TR arsenal, but are intentionally made worse
    • The rest is overnerfed and undertuned to make the game more comfortable for NC and TR.
    Proofs? Just compare the amount of cosmetics for NC, TR and VS.
  17. LordKrelas

    I'm just for this:

    Spiker' didn't have the AV mode originally: It started in PS2, as the Godsaw's Directive Perk, after being absent for years.
    GODSAW gained the AV mode, a month or so later, VS gained this on their Spiker without the Godsaw's 50% Reduction in AI damage.

    Not sure on the Aph's piercing effect.

    VS's specifics include, AOE weapons, charge-instant-hit-beams, beam-weapons, to incredibly quiet technology.
    VS has a lot of unusual bits, TR has a lot of generic, and NC has between Generic & NS gear, to very situational weaponry.

    VS has a few clones yes, but TR & NC have clones in the NS cat, but VS doesn't.
    NC's Desperado, was cloned & improved into the VS Spiker.
    MAW is an NC Anchor.
    Canis had most characteristics more common among TR specialty weapons than VS.
    Commissioner has NC traits all over it.
    Swarm, has TR Traits.
    The Shotgun SMG, is an NS weapon.
    The Tomato (I bet, I failed on spelling that one, The Medic NSX rifle), uses NC's railjack features.
    The Emissary is akin to TR's ES pistols.

    No NS weapon has AOE like the Lasher, nor are instantous-strike beams, nor regenerate their ammunition.
    Nor have lack of bullet-drop, nor charge-mechanics.
    Anything specific to VS, is only found on VS:
    NC's heavy hitting is found in NS & VS.
    NC's better capabilities, are found in NS & VS weapons.
    TR's general characteristics can be found in NS & in VS.
    If there is a special capability from TR or NC, you can nearly find it in NS, and often in VS.
  18. Campagne

    I don't agree. Many weapons are copied much to my disdain, but often they are so similar they might as well be direct copies. I do feel that the VS does lack a bit of solid ground and instead gets more special junk in place of actual meaning traits, but there's not much left after high damage/low RoF and low damage/high RoF. I guess the Vanu did sort of end up with the middle ground 143s.

    Heavy harasser? I cannot imagine why, to be honest. Exactly what really changed to make it go from tank to "harasser?" Only major tank changes I can immediately recall were the CAI, which didn't really change the tank itself much and at least not in any way which was unique to the Magrider. 'Course, I don't really know.

    My point exactly. The Phaseshift is different and useful, even if it's not the objective best. But the Railjack is just plain worse than any other bolt-action until about ~220 meters thanks to the firing delay effectively negating the sole benefit it has over another rifle; The immense velocity boost does not result in a bullet impact sooner than the Longshot if both guns are fired at the same target at the same time. PS can swap between firing types and has no drop and infinite ammo through the heat mechanic. It serves a real purpose, which the Railjack does not. Suppressor buffs makes a suppressed RJ much more viable to the point of practical use, but the same can be said about every other rifle at the same time.

    I'd actually have to say "depends" for MAXes too. I really don't see why NC MAXes are so highly regarded and having been on the receiving end of all three (through a TR alt but also as NC anyway :p) I really can't say there is a meaningful difference in bumping into a MAX in point blank but at least the NC can't keep firing and can't touch ya' from range and/or with cover. At best it'd be another "dunno."

    I have to agree. I don't really like 143/~750s and from what I can tell there isn't a huge number of meaningful differences between them all. Don't envy the horde of bland and boring. And teal.

    I maintain no projectile-drop is more useful than people give it credit for. More and more weapons are getting heat mechanics now as they are released as well, which offers a great advantage. Yes, I do mean like on the Lancer, though I believe the Spiker's alternate fire mode has a charge mechanic as well.

    I think the lack of a clear motif for the Vanu was just replaced with a bunch of interesting things instead. Can't say it's the best thing to get but at least there's no hard-set disadvantage to it.

    Yes, but the mechanics themselves where not. In the case of the AV mode the Spiker existed prior to the GODSAW and the AV mode, (IIRC), but did not receive the AV mode until several months after it was created and installed in the GODSAW. The Bishop saw the very first instance of a weapon capable of penetrating an enemy. This is widely extolled as what makes the Bishop unique and is what the weapon is most known for and is the main feature which separates it from the other Gen II BRs. However in the very same update the Aphelion received a considerably buff to both the harasser and Magrider versions. The Dev. note says as follows: "...we also wanted to give the crescent wave some more niche usage with our new piercing tech..."

    Patch notes:
    GODSAW: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/pc-game-update-2-2.244593/
    Spiker: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps...pdate-10-19-nanite-of-the-living-dead.247496/
    Bishop & Aphelion: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps...pdate-6-12-construction-reconstructed.249575/

    VS doesn't have anything *overpowered. All that stuff got over-nerfed and unfortunately left there. The NC's history is sorely lacking in overpowered equipment, and the TR aren't immune to over-nerfs as well. The game isn't rigged against the VS, don't pretend like it is.

    As far as I'm aware the ought to be an identical number of DBG-created cosmetic items for each faction. I can't say what the ratios for player-created cosmetics are, but the developers can't entirely control what players choose to make and for whom. And yet alerts still continue to favour the VS and the TR while the NC lags behind as they have always done.
    • Up x 1
  19. asmodraxus

    No projectile drop only affects sniper rifles or AV weapons at sniper ranges, when was the last time LMG's got used to kill targets at full health 200m away as that's when bullet drop starts?

    Bullet drop for normal weapons is a non factor the maths have been done (in fact its closer to 400m as sniper rounds and tank rounds have greater gravity then hand guns).
  20. Pacster3

    The Bishop is a handgun...the Aphelion is mounted on a vehicle. Do we really want to compare apples and oranges like that? I mean, we do not say that Phoenix is not unique cause all got AV-turrets or hornets(all basicly guided missiles...with a few different perks and mounted on different platforms), right?
    In the current meta the Bishop matters exactly as much as a Lasher, Lancer, ZOE, PPA or whatever other gimmicky toys VS got...and seriously, the situations where you can really use that Aphelion piercing shot are hard to find(let's not forget that you can't just point and click to get the piercing shot there). Neither do you typically find vehicles lined up nor are you usually on the same terrain level as your targets(which you should be to make good use of it).
    The question is not who got better looking or more of useless mechanics...but who got the best stuff.
    I'd take the Striker, the Scatmax, the Airhammer, the MAX-Shield or the Vanguard(and it's shield) and Prowler any time over the stuff VS got. Most of the other stuff is too close in power that it really does not matter to me(and seriously, I got no idea how anyone wants to compare dozens of rifles with each other). I like the VS gimmicks, but they are gimmicks...and gimmicks lose their fun if you die nonstop with them. The only thing where I really would not want to switch is the Starfall...cause that one is definitely the best ES thing for Flashes out there(and I still do not think that it needs a nerf simply cause I want Flashes to be a part of the game. If Starfall should do that then make it NS and give it to all factions. Fine with me.). All other VS stuff is flashy, gimmicky and certain stuff even quite strong in certain situations(like magrider hill climbing) but nothing that outshines the other factions or NS stuff...and often it's not even on par.