Cloaking takes away the fun

Are you trying to suggest that an ATV transport vehicle shouldn't be a meme vs infantry? And while I wouldn't want to infringe on vehicle vs. vehicle debates as I don't really play that anymore, it would seem to me that it should be a pretty big joke there to, no?

As for the first part, it isn't 'no cloak and no weapons', it's 'if cloak then no weapons', which is two completely different things, and i'm not really sure how you mixed that up.

If you want to know why people call you variations of dumb this is a prime example as to why: you assume that if you cant think of it then no one can and you ignore obvious solutions.

Take explosives. You say "oh noes if OHK mines are out then no mines work!". What about the obvious question of "what about non-OHK mines, you know those mines I already proposed in the other thread? You can easily create a variety of low-lethality mines that can slow enemies by being lethal if you continue walking without stopping or clearing the mines manually and the mines could also warn the owning faction with faction-specific sounds, radar signatures upon explosion and even scanpulses or dust that clings to enemies and reveals their presence. And that is just the mines. You can easily create a variety of shields that slow down enemies trying to pass in a variety of ways and also warn allies that an enemy is approaching. You can also create some basic mechanics around a Sunderer like creating a warning signal on the map and possibly even a waypoint when enemies are detected somehow nearby (Q-spot, recon equipment, radars, shooting an unsilenced weapon too close) or when the Sunderer is damaged. Just some simple idea's you could add off the top of my head, and you can create more idea's both simple and more intricate that would help support defending a Sunderer without sitting around doing nothing guarding it and also while not having to take too much time deploying defenses.

The problem here is not that I refused bad idea's, the problem is that you refuse good ones and either forget or ignore obvious solutions that have already been given or are right there in the open.

What's the point in having trash meme vehicles that serve very little purpose at all? Even if we removed a wraith flashes weapons, what's its purpose now? To get a single or two infantry at the base behind to what? The best thing they could do is hack vehicle terminals and pull a sunderer. The worst thing they could do is die and have to make the journey again. Every single thing they could do is worse than air-dropping a router on the point.

Vehicles already struggle to find a place in the game and people who suggest "Transport vehicles don't deserve to be any better than that!" are completely ignorant of how routers, beacons and redploy makes vehicles an already questionable usage of manpower. Forcing some vehicles to be little more than transports with no firepower of their own just makes their value even less than they are now.

Unless the goal IS to have trash vehicles that serve no purpose, which isn't exactly a surprise from some people.

Well yeah, the point is that without the wraith cloak, the flash just becomes an even worse javelin, since it no longer has the only thing that lets it survive in an actual combat scenario. It won't even have the minor mobility that javelins have to throw off peoples aim.

Yeah, removing Wraith Flash weapons is not the solution. Weaponized Flashes are almost useless without cloak. However the big problems of current cloak Flash is its ability to decloak and fire and its ability to squash infantry while cloaked, especially MAX's. This is easily solvable without having to remove the weapon: dont allow a Cloak Flash to open fire immediately after decloaking. You can remove the cloak cooldown we have now, it served no purpose (it was supposed to adress the very problems that Cloak Flashes presented). A simple solution is to simply increase the duration of the decloak so there is more warning before a Flash strikes.
As for roadkilling infantry, just reduce the damage per velocity. You have to drive full tilt at 90km/h for a kill for example. The Flash is slowed down based on the amount of damage it deals (say 1000 health damage loses you 75km/h). When hitting MAX's the Flash could also receive damage itself.

With such changes the Cloak Flash wont be as much of a problem as both vehicle and infantry players get more warning of a Cloak Flash. A good Flash user would then try to approach while visible, attack and decloak instead, which is a much more interesting dynamic between the cloak Flash and its opponents.
We can then start looking at making the Flash better for other classes as well. Shouldn't the HA, LA, Engi and Medic have some usefulness out of the Flash as well? Right now anyone wanting to use a Flash in combat has to be an infiltrator on a cloak Flash, which sucks because it could be so much more interesting! Change the cloak module into a class-specific module which enhances some part of the Class that is on it and makes the Flash useful enough for all classes to take into combat.

Ok I see now. You can't read. LMAO indeed.

How does putting the cloak in a weapon slot change the wraith flash into a javelin?

It turns the wraith flash into ... wait for it.... waaaaiiit..... a flash.

So yeah, get the F out of here with that straw man. I didn't suggest what you say I suggest.

If you have a point to make, do it honestly.

As a 50 nanite personal transport should be.

Nah, that logic does not really fly. Without cloak you are more lethal off the Flash than on it. Also you seem to be making the assumption that nanite cost=power. Which would mean everything needs to be rebalanced. ESF obviously overpower Lightnings in every way, Liberators have more firepower per nanite than MBT's, Harassers were added to the game as cheap 3-man transports but have become 2-man medium tanks. Grenades will cost you a lot more and get you a lot less kills than the same cost in a Lightning etc etc.

Nanites have only one real purpose: limit the usage of powerful tools. But otherwise nanites should not get in the way of good gameplay. Its OK for the Flash to be designed as more than a transport. Trying to nail things down "because it says X on the tin!" Just limits our game for no good reason.

Ok so don't get hung up on the 50 nanites. Be generic. "Something cheap" should not also be "something powerful".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying take the gun off of it. A quad bike with an anti-tank weapon. ok lolz, but sure why not. It's fun. There is some serious power to be had there but also super high risk. Almost an extreme on the harasser concept. Makes for some fun team potential too. And there is always gonna be that guy who gets insanely good at it.

All fine.

Now make it invisible also. WHAAAAAA???

It's a joke to me. Utterly broken just crap on the game stuff.

The wraith-flash without a weapon would still be an amazing and versatile vehicle. Much fun cheese could still be had.

I don't think the wraith flash in its current form is breaking the game though. The infantry cloak is.

The Italians put an anti-tank weapon in their Vespa scooter. A quad would not be that much of a stretch.

The thing is that its not just about power, but the role and usefulness it plays in the game. Transport is barely a part of the game and keeping the Flash as nothing but a Transport just doesnt work.

You try to add realism to the discussion which never ends well. If you want realism how about we add the maintenance cost, acquisition cost and requirements to drag a tank to a garage in order to fix and maintain it? Or if you want realistic AOE's for tank guns we should be adding realistic costs per shell as well.

In the end it doesnt matter how ridiculous it may seem. What matters is if it makes for a better game. The current cloak flash does not, but with simple changes we can keep the cloak&weapon and still make it fun for both the user and the people being attacked by them.

Keeping it as an **invisible** transport works. Keeping it as a transport that also has a weapon also works.

Doing both at once doesn't.

I'm not attempting add realism to anything. The GAMEPLAY concept of some little 5 cent vehicle getting a weapon that pose a VERY REAL threat to the most powerful tanks in the game is just silly. (or ridiculous if we're... gonna use that word...)

Agreed, it does not make a better game.

I think if you moved the cloak to a weapon slot fun would still be had. No doubt about it.

And it would fix what's broken.

If there is some other solution, hey that's fine too. Haven't seen it proposed yet.

It doesn't under the current circumstances. But with different circumstances? It absolutely can! My idea is to make sure a Cloak Flash has to start its attack visible, instead of just popping up and brutalizing the infantry/vehicle they came upon.
The way to do this: extend decloak duration. This makes the Flash make its warning sound for longer as well as its weapon lock. This would discourage decloaking nearby and encourage players to approach a chosen target visibly from a distance, the exact thing you seem to want. Cloak would just be a tool to get around and into a position, not to directly attack.

Its only a real threat due to the way cloak works right now. Take that one thing away from cloak (and not cloak itself) and you solved the gameplay problem.
I'm not arguing for keeping the current Cloak Flash. If absolutely necessary the choice between keeping weaponized cloaked Flashes or splitting up the cloak and weapons on the Flash I would pick splitting them up. But that is simply not necessary. Why degrade and remove gameplay choices if you can alter them to fit in instead?

What is wrong with making the decloak longer? You can even extend the loudness and range of the decloak sound to properly warn people of the potential Flash attack to ensure a Cloak Flash will decloak away from the target he intends to attack before going in.

The flash was never meant to be more. Wraith flash still lets you pull it for cheap and safely get to places fast, especially defending three point bases, or other's with long walks.

And yeah, if you ignore having to have construction unlocked, taking the time to make a router base, and then spending nanites (or having to also have an airbase) to fly over to a base, it's worse.

Your 'transport' vehicle can still have weapons. It can't have cloak AND weapons at the same time in it's current state, as it is busted. The very fact that you are here arguing that not being able to have both will make it 'useless' should be sending you some very red flags about just how busted it is.

And just because vehicles struggle doesn't mean you let broken mechanics stay.

Except javelins can't roadkill, so there is tradeoff. And that's the neat part; if you want to be safe in a combat area, you use cloak. If you want to use a 50 nanite ATV transport vehicle as a weapon, you're not going to be safe and shouldn't be.

This wouldn't be a bad compromise, but it would have to be a pretty significant delay, especially if you remove the cloak cooldown.

Its not meant to be new. It doesn't need to be new. If you are having problems with it, maybe it just doesn't work for you. None of us think alike, therefore we do not act alike, and if we try to imitate each other, it doesn't always work. However, that doesn't mean there is NO SOLUTION to the problem if it doesn't pose a problem for everyone. So 9/10 of the times I speak, I'm not going to tell you anything new, because I never needed anything new to deal with the problems I faced. It is quite literally the basics that make sure I don't fall into the same traps that you guys do, and when I do die to something, I analyze what I could have done better. Sometimes, I just get outplayed. But applying the basics still helps you. So once again, I'm going to reply with the L2P, because where do you start when you have computer problems other than the basics?

Heres the thing about having a vehicle that can cloak but can't defend itself. While yes, you can get players behind enemy lines or behind a tank, then it is in their hands to do something. Great, that Light Assault didn't have to stealthily run up to an unsuspecting tank and C4 it. Now they just drive up and do something. Oh wait, we get caught on the decloak? Now that LA most likely died faster and easier than if he just stealthily ran up and C4'd the tank. Oh wait, we get caught while we are driving by a Harasser that can go much faster than us and follow us through the cloak? Well, we are screwed (not like you weren't screwed if a Harasser saw a cloaked Flash with weapons or if they didn't see you before you tried to attack them). There is no defense for a cloaked Flash and there is no offense save rolling over people (which is the part that THESE GUYS HATE!) if you are in danger or make an opportunity available. In ANY vehicle v vehicle engagement, you have a high chance of being screwed by ANYONE WHO PAYS EVEN THE SLIGHTEST BIT OF ATTENTION! Just listen and you will hear a loud cloak behind you. JUST BACK UP AND BLOW UP THE FLASH! JUST TURN YOUR GUN AROUND AND BLOW IT UP NEAR INSTANTLY! You hear a Flash driving around but don't see a Flash? Well its a cloaked Flash, and keep your eyes and ears peeled.

Plus, I found Turbo Flash with Stealth to be a more effective transport and death avoidance vehicle, since tanks won't be able to hit you. With the cloak, you move so slow (can someone please fact check whether or not activating the cloak slows your Flash down, because it feels like it does) that someone can shoot you before you can get out of the way. Not only that, but it makes it really hard for regular infantry to shoot you. The people who find the Wraith Flash annoying are those that put most of their focus on sight. Thats why they find Infiltrators annoying. Its because they want to see their threat and they can't. Yet, there are clear signs of when danger is coming if you just listen or use your reasoning capabilities or imagine what that Flash is seeing at that particular moment, what the driver wants to do, what he's going for, what his goal is. You don't lose to an Infiltrator just by getting outplayed, outshot, outclientsided, outwhatever. You lose at the mental game first.

The thing is not only nanites, but also certs. The wraith is unlocked with 150 certs and can be upgraded for longer duration with further 2100 certs, the driver needs to be an infiltrator and the costs for further weaponry costs additional certs. So the wraith won't work with any other class than the infiltrator, who could as well use the stalker cloak and walk over to the next base, takes only longer. The thing is so niche in its usage, it is barely useful, but still people find ways for mischief.

But everyone can pull an ANT, collect some cortium and go on a happy round around the enemy base. No one can shoot THEM out of the driver seat. They can have a gunner who as well is protected from bullets with similar, worse arsenal than the Flash. How come nobody complains about this widely accessible vehicle for every class?

OK, 200 nanites are 4 times the amount of the Flash, but it is accessible for every class. Its transport cloak costs 50 to unlock and further 850 to cert out, less than half the amount for the Flash. Given, the amount of time needed to fill that thing is a bit of RNG, depending on what kinds of cortium nodes you find, but still, if you know a 35k cortium node and can fill up in one go, you can do about 4 runs at best. And by the time you have your cortium, you have your nanites back already.

And of course, with logistics specialist, you turn into a mobile spawnpoint as well just like a Galaxy. No need to halt the vehicle for that, just be in the same hex. And with 4 seats you could have a gunner and still give constant access to two people to spawn and jump out.

I see no one complain about that...

Ok, the Flash has an anti-tank weapon. Yes. 50 nanites, 1 shot by any tank primary other than the C75 Viper, but that doesn't matter since you get multiple shots to take it out. So risky, high risk, yes. "Now make it invisible also." Listen dude, its not invisible at the same time it is shooting. You can try to argue "clientside cloak", but no. There is a short delay from when you uncloak to when you can fire as is, so no. Therefore, you aren't ALSO INVISIBLE while using the weapons. It only allows you to approach and escape, and as I have said in other posts, the rest is up to you. You will not be doming tanks on a Flash and living to tell the tale, because once you have emptied your 1/3 mags that you need to use to take down the tank, you have been blown to bits, for you can't recloak for 5 seconds after you have used your mag, which means you are still uncloaked for a portion of the beginning of your grand escape. Therefore, no. You are not invisible also.

Now if you want it to be a solely invisible, no weapon, transport vehicle, you are going to increase the amount of roadkill Wraith Flashes exponentially, since thats all anyone wants to do. We'll be more creative in destroying vehicles too. Tank Mine Sticky Nade Engineer, C4 Deci AV Nade Heavy, C4 Typhoon Rocklet LA, C4 Warden UBGL Medic for the HP and constant regen, you name it. But make no mistake, the cloak doesn't make the Flash unbalanced.

In fact, most people who complain about the Wraith aren't complaining about weapons, save the Renegade. They are complaining about ROADKILLS, because lets face it, if you die to a Flash from full HP as any vehicle, you deserved it. However, if you die to a Flash with a Renegade who plans to roadkill as many people as possible, thats just an oof to you. You didn't hear it coming or it attacking your teammates, and thats just a big oof to you and a real reason to complain. But about Flashes simply having a weapon? Nah.

They were known for winning wars

Really? We're comparing the flash and the ant? Don't forget you gotta cert up your radar and storage to find and hold that cortium. I think you'll find this silly math falls flat.

If you want to make the wraith flash driver go through the same hoops as the ant driver then I'll withdraw my complaints about the wraith flash. Until then, let's speak no more of this silly apples to cabbage comparison.

Nope. I have no complaints. Logistics implant work waaaaaaaaay better with a wraith flash btw. believe me.

If you want to understand why consider this. Let's you and I both go annoy the everliving crap out of that sunderer over there at the 1-2 fight. Let's see who can ruin the fight faster and maybe even get a ragequit! You take the invisible cortium and and I'll take the wraith flash.

Ready? Remember, it's a race. On your mark get set...

Oh, I'm just saying. I died to both the cloaked Flash and the cloaked ANT in the past, so both vehicles are capable of doing what is bothering the people here. It doesn't bother me that much, maybe I'm just a lucky guy who avoids most of these players prone for these tactics. Or maybe because I am invisible as well and these drivers never see me. But hey... a player who spent time and certs into the construction system, and thus the ANT as well, has that option. In the end, the one on the recieving end gives little regard of what it was, that killed him. It was cloaked, that alone is enough. And, to be frank, the ANT is a lot quieter than the roaring Flash engine in my opinion and larger in size.