Cloaking takes away the fun

I wasn't tunnel visioning on the Infil though. I was tunnel visioned on where I saw them decloak and shift. So instead of watching them to see where they ran and just shoot them, I watched the spot they were at instead, and when they moved out of it, I didn't notice.

Yes, but I said a power knife because its what most Stalkers use and it is harder to deal with. You wouldn't believe the amount of Stalkers who do that.

Well, say they didn't switch to knife and decided to walk into the area I was at. Popped, because I baited them into doing what I wanted them to do.

If they are using a sniper, yeah, because they just have to hit the head.

If they are playing SMG or Scout Rifle, I am not so sure about that.

Perma invis? Do you mean Stalker? And yeah, I am agreeing with you on Stalkers. There is no way to find them or knowing they are there outside of dying to them, watching them decloak and shoot someone, hearing them equip a knife, or Darklight. They aren't in a rush. I think Stalkers need a nerf. And SMGs really shouldn't be on Infiltrators. They should have kept their headhunter weapons to themselves and not shared them with the other classes. It should be a headshots or die class.

And yes, its hard to keep track of everything and you do have to be cautious. Infiltrators can be anywhere. But snipers you can especially expect. Here's war for you. You are walking with your team, and a guy gets sniped. Now you know there is a sniper in the area. It would have been unlikely for you to know that prior to them shooting, because you are in an unfamiliar place, not everyone is trying to kill you, and they probably wouldn't have given some amazing signal to you that they are there. However in Planetside, you have an advantage. Everyone is trying to kill you, so you know that snipers are probably watching you. So don't do anything stupid out in the open, and you will get sniped much less.

And this whole thing about sitting invisible and one shotting you from range; if you are a sniper, you are practically invisible at range anyways. Eyes overlook you if you are in a good spot. Infiltrators are more effective as snipers because they can peak a corner without getting counter sniped, or change positions in a big cat and mouse game, which requires you to anticipate their next move and wait. Lets just give another class snipers as well. What about Engineer? They are supposed to be defense experts, so give it to them. Now they can deny an area and countersnipe Infiltrators. Do they have the same advantages? Of course not, but now they can sit and 1 shot people from range too.

I don't really care if you nerf Infiltrators. My only point in these discussions is that they are counterable most of the time. Most people just don't know how. I like to imagine everyone I miss 3 sniper shots on that doesn't start zigzagging immediately then kill them with the 4th are the same type of people that would complain about Snipers. I like to imagine the everyone I have ever killed with an SMG after I just walked up and killed 3 of their teammates are the same type of people who would complain about SMG Infiltrators. (However I think SMG Infiltrators are one of the more broken types of Infiltrators.)

All in all, man, I can't effectively explain a thought process to you. I can't show you how I think about Infiltrators or convey it to you. I can't give you the secret tip on how to deal with every Infiltrator interaction so that you don't die to them, and I can't make it more fun for you to fight them. Thats just the way it is. All I can say is that I have no problems dealing with them as non-Infiltrators, and everytime I die to them, I understand what I did wrong, and I know what I could have done better.

Would do almost nothing for bolters/snipers, NAC would still exist, and clientside from invisibility would still be a thing. Would make shooting at bolters a tiny bit more worthwhile, especially if they removed or nerfed NAC as well, but it's a band-aid solution to a broken mechanic, and i'd rather they directly fix the issue. See: NWA nerf for an example of a band-aid change that really doesn't address the issues, and i'm even in the camp that doesn't mind NWA.




Toune#9537[/quote]

Yes. It wouldn't really, other than making them easier to kill. But for the situations where you would actually feel like you couldn't react to them, it would. And if that helps you guys deal with them easier, I'm all for it.

"If someone talks sense" is a key point. You've spouted nothing but drivel, absolutely terrible logic, used already disproven rhetoric, and to top it off, a bunch of fallacies.

I bring it back to this point: If I can play better as an Infil, and against Infils, backed by stats and/or footage, why would I listen to people who play worse than me when it comes to the 'advice' or, in the very least, take their claims of just wanting Infils nerfed because I 'can't deal with them or find them annoying' seriously? You've done nearly the exact same by saying:

You ignore any actual facts like the mechanical issues of being killed before an Infil renders either visually or their de-cloak sound. You imply that not only is this not a problem, but it shouldn't be changed because it's a) just hate against infils and b) that it is just a slippery slope and that the same people would just move on to 'crying' for other changes (even if those changes have merit).

And I can understand why you've come to that conclusion, given your terrible take on how everyone should just 'adapt' to every mechanic, and that by that logic, no nerf or change is justified.

I don't care about stats if you can actually post correctly about mechanics and gameplay, that isn't the most basic advice out there. Again, imagine you're a self-taught X trying to convince a proven X that you are correct; you've come in, said something basic like 1+1 is 2, incorrectly stated something a little harder like 40-16 = 23, and then get indignant when the proven X ignores your **** and asks for proof.

I don't just look at KDR, I look at KPM and KDR largely, then things like ACC, HSR, playtime, weapon stats, etc. I can even plug into someone's neat web app how much you die to certain weapons and classes. Even the fact that you thought the first (and only?) thing I cared about was KDR sends up even more suspicious signals.

But you saw them de-cloak. You started off with the advantage, and solely (as far as I can tell) because of how strong cloak is, you lost that advantage.

It's probably because 1hk knives are pretty busted in general, and with everything being delayed, you can die way before they even look like they are in range, and it's a 1hk to any non OS heavy anywhere on the body. Even better, the only trade-off is slightly slower attack rate.

But you were only aware he was rounding the corner at the time because of the sounds. Not that you didn't know the infil was somewhere around you, but it gave the timing and positioning away, and did absolutely nothing to use the cloak to their advantage; imagine after your first or second shot, the infil decided to pop around while you were still reloading or while you were aiming at the tank?

Assuming I read that correctly:

Both SMG and Scout still have a TTK that is lower than not only a normal human reaction, but way lower than the latency + human reaction. Assuming both are playing optimally, the Infil won't be seen before the first shot, and the non-infil won't be an easy target, but will still be (at worst) on roughly the same HP if heavy (OS - initial de-cloak dmg). Scout rifles aren't good weapons in general, but SMGs will absolutely wreck LMGs and have an edge against carbines/rifles.

Yes, stalkers. The thing is, stalkers also wouldn't be a huge issue (and are actually how I think infil should largely play), if it wasn't for the de-cloak issues. Infils should be able to get where they need to be, with relative safety, and even have time to plan out what they are going to do, as the de-cloak would be a liability if poorly planned, which it should be.

You can expect snipers, but here's the thing, visibility is a huge liability. I would dare you to play as a sniper, un-bind cloak, and see just how much less effective you are when you can't sit invisible, lining up shots, safe from other snipers, players with BRs, or even just people taking potshots at you. You will still get kills, I don't doubt that in the least, as sniper rifles are some of the best, if not THE BEST, weapons in the game, but with nowhere near the ease, KPM, or KDR of using cloak.

Maybe my posts come off as if i'm dying to infils every 3 seconds, losing nearly every engagement to them, or something like that. I'm not, i've learned to avoid them as much as possible, where I can, if it would be a bad engagement. I've learned how to move, peak, and position myself in general. I can out shoot most players in the game, let alone most infils, sometimes even at range. I can also play Infil pretty well, to the point where I can keep the same KPM while having anywhere between 2-4+ times the KDR of every other class, and I don't even consider myself that good of a player or infil compared to the top-tier players.

Suffice to say, i'm not the best, by far, but I am very far above the average player. One of the things that has helped me improve is being able to be introspective of what i'm doing wrong. Some things I don't care to change, like being aggressive, fighting against massive overpop, taking bad fights just because it's some action that's more fun than sitting and watching a door, etc, but I don't blame the game for that, as I have agency in most of that. Infils do not give me that opportunity unless they fk up first; if they fk up, I will beat them or live 9/10 times, but it's the fact that they control the start of nearly every fight due to their kit and the advantage of unintended clientside mechanics of de-cloak that need redressing.

I don't doubt you believe so, but I highly suspect that when I watch the recordings that it's going to be Infils messing up, and then you are going to say that it wasn't them messing up but you just outplaying or countering them. Maybe not, and maybe you are constantly fighting infils from an advantage or at least an even playing field, but as a player who is probably better as every infantry class, and with the same opinions echoed by players who are even better than me, I have a real hard time believing that's what i'll see.

Wraith Flashes are unbalanced abominations that need their weapons access removed to make way for buffs to every other aspect of the flash from vehicle handling and performance to weapons tweaking, barring the radar flash as that is good as it is.

Stealth Turbo Flash is much better in terms of survivability with weapons than a Wraith Flash is, at least against vehicles. I do agree it is dumb for Wraith Flashes to just run over people, although it never happens to me, but I find that if they miss, you can just light them up. Wraith Flashes are a lot easier to track than just an Infiltrator. From what I see, if you screw up while on a turbo Flash, you can get away because of the speed of the turbo and the recharge of it. If you don't like Wraith Flash drivers, try out a Stealth Turbo Flash for yourself. Its amazing for doing quick damage to vehicles AND living.

If anything, people see infil way too easy already. There's nothing wrong with them. Every tool they get is nerfed the fk out. Latest example cort bomb. IMO, the only problem infils are the ones that aren't legit, you know, the ones that seem to have 6 implants going at once.

what

I for one find 1v1s among infiltrators delightful, since it basically is a game of who messes up first. But if I make (several) counter arguments to state: "I think your idea is a bad one. What do you think of this instead?" and all get torpedoed , what am I expected to think at some point? At some point, I scratch my head and think: "OK, this is rather destructive than constructive, what they want."

As for my stats, my KDR gets better over time. I was a pretty noob back then, yet got better over the time, but the KDR of old is still a mess and will take further improvement from my side, I sometimes am too stubborn and ruin myself. But if you want a KPM, I'm afraid I'll take my time too much at times, am AFK or do other things like construction. that leaves my KPM pretty abysmal I guess, yet I never claimed to be an unstoppable killing machine. I play so the squad/outfit/faction takes the win when we make the rounds around the block, sometimes wasting my KDR, yet I take my freedom to go for kills when I'm all by myself.

To give you an insight, the first thing I got on Auraxis level were the AI mines, then the Blackhand. I just love sniping with that thing. Good at countersniping as well, I remember times when the enemy was on top of crown and sniping down, yet not one in the enemy lines seemed to care when all of a sudden their snipers dropped like flies. Earned me a nice 15 or so kills before death. Darn, I really should record my sessions to keep these moments in pristine memory.

Considering the latency system your opponents would barely have the time to locate you unless you decloak on their screen. And you know what would be a skillful and smart adaptation? To use cloak to get into a flanking position before decloaking! Wow what a thought!

Your inability to adapt to a 2 second decloak time is a lacking on your part. It removes the ability to decloak in someones face and kill them before the decloak even renders on their screen and pushes cloak into its intended role: a tool to get into flanks rather than a direct combat ability. And it would still be incredibly powerful, how could it not? Its literally an ability that lets you get into a superior position compared to your enemy before you engage them. With added changes like returning the Infil's health and shield to be on par with the other classes and perhaps a longer duration cloak it would keep the Infil as a powerful class in its own right without the OP "decloak and kill someone before it renders" ability.

I think its a good idea in theory and could work, but the problem is the extremes to which it can go. I remember some of the buffs you guys have talked about, like either longer cloak lengths, lower visibility, or no more decloak noises. So now, either you ABSOLUTELY have to fight people from behind and it will be hard to get behind them or you ABSOLUTELY have to fight people from behind and it won't be hard to get behind them.

The assertion that Infiltrators should be attacking people from behind comes from the assumption that Infiltrators dictate their engagements. A buff to the longer cloak is definitely helpful in being able to run around someone in a situation where you normally would have ran out of cloak time and are forced to attack. But say you paired it with less visibility. Ok, now you can easily attack people from behind. Pair it with not being able to hear the cloak. Ok, now they can easily get behind you and kill you in a situation where you actually couldn't react. You couldn't see them or hear them, so how can you know when they are behind you? Why actually give them a free kill? Now you actually dictate your engagements.

If we take the inverse, that you do not get all or any of these buffs, you are left in the same situation you are in now, but debuffed. You assume we dictate our engagements, but no, choices do - ours and theirs. That, and the length of your cloak. Now, you have even more limited choices since you have effectively extended the time you need to attack someone by 2 seconds on your screen. If you don't have a longer cloak time, you can't really get behind people very well. You don't have the time to. If you don't have lower visibility, your attempts to get behind someone will most likely be spotted. And if you still have a decloak sound, you are going to eat crap when you do decloak behind anyone with a functioning brain and working ears. Now, you especially don't dictate your engagements.

So now you have to find a middle ground, because honestly, if you feel the class is overpowered, why would you want it to continue to be so? Why not having it balanced?

I had a ball at The Crown yesterday afternoon

that bridge just to the south yielded 40 kills for me over the period of an alert... each time I ran out of ammo I'd redeploy to Crossroads then pull a Valk and fly back to the bridge

I didn't die once, which surprised me really... usually someone wises up and suddenly a Light Assault with darklight flashlight but yesterday, nothing... the bridge was mine

that was with the Blackhand

Except it isn't 'who messes up first', it's 'if the infil messes up first'.

What counter arguments? You straight up said anyone who thinks anything in the game needs changing is a whiner and needs to adapt. You compared minor cloak with infil cloak, despite minor cloak requiring a player to stand still for an extended time and then not move at all, which is a huge fkn deal. You went on a couple rants about slippery slopes and nerfs. And you gave some **** examples of nothing, and made dumb af arguments like how any class could finish you off, ignoring that with any other class they can't do things that an Infil can like drop spots, sneak past allies, and clientside you from nearly anywhere.

For recent sessions: http://stats.binarycoder.info/
or the fisu killboard: https://ps2.fisu.pw/killboard/

but continue to make excuses.

I never used the word "whiner". I said "Deal with it." I often have to deal with situations not coming to my liking as well. No one gives a damn if I find the world unfair then. Guess I as well will have to deal with it then.

Alright, I looked up Minor Cloak and it uses an 8 second timer, not a 2 second one, still I won't stand behind a 2 second weapon lock. No other class has to suffer a weapon lock due to anything, HAs have a slowdown of their movement speed, yes, but that is gone as soon as the overshield is down. It doesn't need further 2 seconds to go away.

Oh, there are other things other classes can do and the infiltrator can't do and you know that. There are enough places the LA can go up the infiltrator can't reach without getting some aircraft, there are enough corpses on the ground or halfbroken wreckages the infiltrator can't revive or heal. You make it sound like infiltrators are demigods by class design. They are certainly not.

Thank you kindly for the links. They provided interesting data.

Semantics. You've said people will continue to complain about infils, and the next thing that kills them. You've said these people are in the wrong and instead need to suck it up, stop complaining, and adapt. But okay, you didn't directly say whining? lol.

It doesn't JUST use an 8 second timer, it also requires you to stand still to even activate it, and moving at all will break it. That's not even in the same ballpark as infil's cloak, and the fact that you still can't understand how truly different they are is baffling.

Yeah, no other class suffers a 2 second weapons lock, because no other class ability lets them turn invisible (and move) in an FPS game. Again, like Minor Cloak, you're making a false equivalence.

Almost any place in the game an LA can go can be gotten there by any other class without resorting to vehicles, either by longer travel or by wall jumping. Any place another class can't go is usually a trash place to be in the first place, besides for planting beacons. And that isn't even what makes an LA strong, it's their ability to have walking CoF while in flight. It's not even remotely close to being able to drop spots (which is one of the strongest mechanics in the game), be near invisible to literally completely invisible (in a fkn FPS game) while having the best CQC weapons in the game and the best long range weapons, and being able to kill people through clientside rendering issues from nearly any direction. Further, you really don't appreciate how much less vulnerable infils are than any other class in the game, and how that nets them kills with the ease that no other class could even dream of, clientside or not.

Medic rez is actually an issue I have to, but this is a thread about infil's cloak.

And yes, Infils are by and far the best ivi class in the game. It isn't even debatable when all the stats show that almost every player in the game does SIGNIFICANTLY better as an Infil, never mind any subjective reasons. The only time it isn't the case is when you are fighting off waves of potatoes, where heavy's bigger mags and self healing through adren allow you to sustain and even heal through the absolute garbage damage those trash players will do to you.

I exclusively play as a flash main until i'm needed as ground infantry to push a point. I'm familiar with every in and out of the flash and i do not enjoy the disgusting ease that the Wraith Flash gives and how abused it has become.

An on-demand invisible vehicle with an insta-kill shotgun/anti-vehicle weapon attached to it, there is no more to discuss about this as many players absolutely hate being snuck up from behind and have no way to counter it until its too late.

The Flash shouldn't have a shotgun, and if I die to a Flash, its ALWAYS due to that, so I can understand your frustration. Even so, I don't die to it that often, maybe once or twice to the guy, then they can't even get the time of day because I can expect them coming and hear the direction. But i understand this part.

An anti-vehicle weapon, though? I don't know if you mean in reference to the vehicles you are fighting or to infantry. If its to vehicles, from my own experience, I can count the number of times I have died to a Flash while in a vehicle on one hand - zero. I play the Flash and I don't get the chance to destroy someone in a 1v1 engagement without getting blown up instantly, so I have to be craftier.

As for the infantry side, what? I guess I can understand a Kobalt Flash, as if that guy is sitting still spamming at you, chances are that you are going to get smoked. But everything else is negligible.

To fix the Wraith Flash and force players to sit still for too long, while fixing all vehicles with a top gun from being annoyingly OP, remove third person from vehicles and keep the top guns unstabilized, just like on the Flash. It will be much harder for them to kill you while moving fast over bumpy territory.

As a "flash main" what do you think about the idea of putting the cloak in the weapon slot? IE you could have a weapon or a cloak, but not both.

I'm not a vehicle main so I don't have a lot of skin in this game. It seems to be a broken mechanic in need of a heavy nerf bat. But I hate even suggesting these things because I know somebody somewhere will get their playstyle (and fun) ruined.

Give weaponless flashes these buffs, make Wraith Flashes less visible while standing still but much easier to spot at longer range while moving and I think that would be fine.

I'd settle with higher cloak/decloak times on Wraith Flashes as well, and all rocket launchers should one-shot flashes, not just the decimator.


I agree that Wraith Flashes are AIDS, but they're also really fun to use.

Ok guys, what do you hate most about the Flash? Be specific. Is it getting roadkilled? Is it getting shotgunned? Is it your vehicle getting damaged? What is it? If its about getting roadkilled, then make the cloak more visible at farther ranges or just louder. Is it getting shotgunned? Nerf the Renegade. Is it your vehicle getting damaged? Screw you. You're on a 24 player streak. All in all, just remove third person for vehicles and you'll solve a lot of vehicle related issues.

Third person makes aiming and moving on the Flash a lot easier. Remove it, and now you can't aim while moving fast, its harder to run people over since you have to lead them in first person, and your field of vision is limited further. Remove the stabilization for Harassers and make their hit and run playstyle harder. Let the tanks remain stabilized. Nerf the HP of Heavy Aircraft. Vehicle gameplay bettered.

I personally still want Flashes to be quite deadly, just not as survivable.

Default dumbfires and lock-ons don't one-shot flashes which is something that I really don't like, and it didn't use to be that way until some patch I can't remember. In a heavy vs flash 1v1 I can land shots no problem, but because of no one-shot it's better to aim for the driver than for the flash or pull out a gun and aim for the driver.


On an unrelated note, Basilisks and Kobalts should do a bit more damage to the flash.