Can we finally level NC to TR and VS standards?

Oh dear...

As I said you are trying to manipulate stats and this is clear. The stats alone don't say anything really most of the time and you have to take into account other stats and factors to make a conclusion to an argument. How much time did these users used this weapon? what if they used it once? where they testing a weapon? are they relatively new players? interesting stat, which you choose to ignore and is very important, is how many BR 100+ use the weapon? etc. If you looked a bit closely, you can see that the difference between the weapons is not that much and this kind of differences can be explained from what I stated. Also, I know the site, but I don't know if I can trust it. But again it does not matter.

Furthermore, you said some other things like NC Max weapons have pellets but again you ignore the fact that you use slugs (how convenient!), I was referring to the LAST update to SMGs and so much more, I could go on and on. I am too bored for that though and you are not willing to accept or even understand what I am saying because you have that fanboy mentality(I am a fanboy in a way but I see things differently). I know someone is irritated and has lack of serious arguments in order for him to prove his point when he starts talking directly about me more and more trying to belittle or insult me (even said the typical "git gud"...lol that's funny to me).

Have a nice day honey!






P.S. GiT gUd!

Come on, this is a terrible argument. You claim he's manipulating stats while he's working with what he's got. Trying to claim "hey but there's stats missing and therefore you are manipulating it so I'm right" is truly a dirty way of making an argument.
Also the claim was that everyone was using the Gladius, not how long the average individual was using it. And clearly there's less people using the Gladius at the moment.

Putting up the Gladius against weapons which has been in the game for years, eh? Doesn't seem fair but hey, lets give it a whirl.

To put this is perspective the Canis has 3,331 users (I do recall certain people here saying "everyone on VS is using this OP toy"), the Jackal 2,427 users. The Gladius even manages to beat the Eridani and nibble on TR's Armistice. Meanwhile, NC has the popular and best "old school" SMG. Only beat by two NS SMGs.

If you exclude gold/AE/directive SMGs the Gladius is the most accurate, has the highest average KDR, slightly less KPH than the tengu/canis, swinging in the big leagues with a very high average HSR. In other words, this weapon is not underperforming in the slightest.

Must be nice to have two competitive SMGs to choose from. Personal preference might enter into it but those aren't facts or hard data. There are weapons I should like but don't and there are weapons I like that I "shouldn't." Pulsar LSW is imo the best VS LMG but I doubt I'm going to get a lot of people on board on that idea.

I have crunched the numbers, and the Gladius is much closer to the Cyclone than the Lynx is to the GD-7F. As for accuracy of the Gladius, it's entirely down to the fact that 200 damage model guns bloom MUCH slower than high RoF 125 and 143 guns. 125 being objectively worse since they have the similar dps as 143 guns, but the same bloom per shot and a higher fire rate. The Gladius is simply a much more controllable gun than other SMGs, maybe except a PDW.

TR has some good ARs, but carbines and SMGs simply aren't their thing.

Yeah. The armistice is basically the gold standard for a TR SMG, since it has that monster DPS, but it's got poor accuracy to it. Only accurate TR SMG is the Jackal, which is shunned by most players for being a poor weapon, and at launch, it definitely was.

Like I have said before. By the time the accuracy and accuracy bloom on the Gladius starts to seriously matter, your at a distance where you should probably not be using an SMG anyways. And it's recoil is shockingly controllable for an SMG, so it already gets to remain accurate at longer ranges then most SMG's.

Just checking in. Where we at?

Ah, the Gladius.


Carry on, carry on. Got some fresh popcorn.

Weapon balance aside, the fate of the NC was sealed even before launch. They were the TK faction (unfairly so), they had terrible leadership, and got an overall derpy rep of being "space 'murrica." Meanwhile, everyone who asked which faction or outfit to join if they wanted to get involved in teamwork or an organized outfit was told to go to VS or TR. This went on for years and years.

Then, when the NC performed really well in Server Smash and Lane Smash the idea NC were just poorly skilled and/or had a terrible organization. This only served to add fuel to the fire. In the early days, we were not privy to as much data either so many followed their gut feelings about what was going on. Much of the info actually was conveyed by developer tweets.

So the myth of NC being worse quickly turned into a self-fulfilling prophecy. This, I'd argue, had a much greater impact than any in-game reasons. I wonder how many players who initially wanted to go NC but was told, "Nah, man. Don't play NC they suck and have like zero teamplay." Who knows how many outfits could have ended up with NC rather than VS/TR if things were different.

I mean, going in I had no information other than the outfit boards. New players don't know or care about what items have been OP or not in the past. They definitely do not care about forumside or whatever factions biases we have. They will care about what is being said about what caters to their need. I went VS in beta and stuck with it because of the outfit I found. Later when this outfit dissolved I "mained" NC instead with another outfit I had dabbled in. These days I tend to play whichever faction has the least population which almost always means VS.

Everything you explained seems extremely planned. It sounds like a faction is doing this to you, and to be honest, any faction can do the same thing their own way. I play Emerald and now more recently Connery. I haven't played Emerald in a while, but when I did, NC would almost always lose to a zerg, so we barely ever go the chance to. (Not saying zerging is a good strategy or anything, just saying.) On Connery, we are always getting double-teamed, and zerged by TR a whole lot. It's not really about the weapons that would make NC unbalanced in this state of the game, because once the heat of the moment dies down when the game gets updated and weapons get nerfed/buffed, you realize that it really doesn't matter that much. Sure, at times a high damage LMG can be annoying, but just respawn again. The factions aren't balanced, but really thats a good thing.

NC are the rebels, fighting for freedom from the tyranny of TR, TR is the military who wants control over Auraxis, and VS are the tech loving alien worshipers. By these factions each having their edge, it makes the game more fun. So really what I am trying to say is, instead of complaining, be innovative. If you are annoyed at NC, take the time to come up with a plan to stop that faction, and keep trying. That's what I am trying to teach NC in our battles. We need to work together, and do more than what our classes ask for.

People are obviously free to disagree, but there isn't an objective truth in this regard. There are many players whom would share a similar opinion as I do.

The NC MAX is the best anti-MAX MAX by far, I'll admit that. But I don't see it ever being any more effective than a TR or VS MAX would be, especially if all three MAXes are firing from the same distance.

Can still shoot the MAXes feet under the shield though, so it's not total protection. I'm not sure at all how well the shield can actually protect against C4. I've seen it seemly save MAXes and seen it kill many more like there was nothing there. One or the other, just as long as there is consistency I say.

Eleventh/twentieth isn't totally awful I suppose, but the claim is that it was very popular, "one of the most" popular guns. Aside from the Gladius, the NC does have nice SMGs though.

It would be literally impossible for me to manipulate the usage stats without blatantly listing incorrect numbers.

That's not how stats works. [] How long each player used it for and their overall experience with PS2 doesn't impact the number o players using the Gladius. If the player was only trialing it or only used it once Dasanfall likely wouldn't actually record them because he'd need to reach a set number of kills first.

And as Demigan has already told you, the only stat related to the claim you have falsely made is the number of unique players using the weapon. The claim you made was that "[the Gladius] is the preferred SMG and one of the most used NC weapons right now." Both parts of which are demonstrably untrue.

If a MAX uses slugs instead of the standard buckshot he'd just be lowering his maximum potential damage output and would then either be dealing the full damage or no damage. You act as if slugs are guaranteed to hit every shot when they're just as likely to miss as anything else.

I can see where you're coming from, but the age of the weapon doesn't cause a very large impact so long as it's been out for a while. A perfect example of this is the Gauss SPR, which has existed in the NC's arsenal since the dawn of the game and yet has only 1378 users.

As for the Gladius' strangely higher accuracy:

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Do you have the numbers? If not or you don't want to find them don't worry about it, as I said it's not relevant and I don't really care. We're not comparing the Gladius and the Lynx together here,at least that's not what I'm doing.

Slower RoF guns bloom more per shot to be roughly "equal" in terms of bloom over time. Here's a formula to calculate bloom per shot: Using the equation [y = i + xb], where y = final CoF, i = starting CoF, x = consecutive shots fired, and b = bloom per shot.

Gladius would be [y = 0.35 + x(0.07)] and any other non-Tengu SMG would be either [y = 0.30 + x(0.05)] or [y = 0.30 + x(0.06)]. Let's pick a few numbers and run them through the formula: 5, 6, 7, 8, and how about 15. The first four are the minimum shots to kill within a maximum damage range of each SMG we currently have given bodyshots, and 15 because nobody dies in the right number of shots here anyway. (Again, minus the tengu because it's weird.)

Gladius' CoF values = 0.7, 0.77, 0.84, 0.91, and 1.4
0.05 SMG's CoF values = 0.55, 0.6, 0.65, 0.7 and 1.05
0.06 SMG's CoF values = 0.6, 0.66, 0.72, 0.78, and 1.2

What do we find here? The Gladius is less accurate universally after any number of shots and when a kill can be achieved it is less accurate/has a larger CoF than that of another weapon even after it has fired more shots.

If ya' can't control the recoil on an SMG you can always burst or git gud. Hell, give the Gladius much more recoil and in exchange lower the initial CoF and drag out the maximum damage range by two meters and I'd still call it a buff.

TR has some good carbines, just because the Lynx isn't the best of the high RoF carbines doesn't discredit the others. SMGs, yeah, just have the Armistice though I don't think the Jackal is bad.

Their fate was sealed alright, but I don't think it was for the same reasons as you do. High damage, low RoF guns don't handle well in PS2 for a multitude of reasons and they suffer for it.

They haven't always lost the most on every single server since the creation of man on Auraxis just because of pure chance or because the NC for some reason thought they were always losing when they weren't. And teamwork is a total joke of an argument in PS2, nobody really works together or cooperates in any meaningful way and haven't for a very long time.

Gauss SPR is not a good comparison. No one needs that weapon, a completionist/directive item only. NC already start off with their BASR and it shows in the numbers as well, VS and TR rock that default semi-auto and NC has a massive amount of BASRs.

Users + time/age is a good indicator of popularity. In your example, we see how incredibly unpopular the 6-12x semi-auto sniper rifle actually is. The only people actually using them in numbers are those who are given it as the default, i.e. Not even given a choice.

So users + time/age is a good way to measure popularity and adoption rate. The numbers say the Gladius is a popular fellow, the numbers also say he's doing really well for himself. Just like my opinion that the Pulsar LSW is the best VS LMG it doesn't matter what we personally feel about the Gladius.

My point exactly. It's been around forever but since it's mostly less useful than the other options available very few people use it. Even so, there are other weapons as well. EM1, SAW-S, most ARs, pistols and shotguns, pretty much every other bolt-action past the default, et cetera it's the same case every time. Age does not necessarily correlate to number of users. Good guns and free guns see the most use, weak guns and niche guns see the least.

The numbers say SMGs are very popular weapons among the New Conglomerate yet this particular SMG is not nearly as popular as the other two NC SMGs. In my opinion this is directly contradicting the idea that the gun is popular, even if we were to ignore the fact that it's not even in the top ten guns. It's only 106 more users above the EM1 for crying out loud!

I'm debating that data somewhat, in that I wonder if it indicates users over X period of time, or something to that effect. In which case the obvious question is what is X? Only reason I say that is because I am pretty sure I have faced off against more Gladius's then Cyclones, and the blitz seems much more popular then the cyclone as well. At least on Connery server anyways. I don't imagine it being that different everywhere, but the gladius does seem stupidly popular on Connery.

Maybe i'm missing something, and somehow never noticing the cyclone being used.

But I could have sworn the cyclone, blitz, and gladius would all have had different positions on that list.

I'm not entirely sure myself. I think it's either all-time stats or stats updated every X time periods, or something.

It might just be a perception bias. Could just be recognizing the Gladius more than the other two SMGs for one reason or another. Of course it could be just pure chance or something similar that you do see more Gladii(?) than other SMGs, but I don't think that'd be too likely. The numbers at least suggest it shouldn't be the case.

True, the age of a weapon in itself does not indicate either way. But age + users do indicate age + users (or popularity)... Which is my point. Gladius has been here for a short amount of time and amassed a lot of users. Just the facts.

However, when we look at the Cyclone we see a weapon which has been propped up as amazing and everyone and their mother has one. It has one of those SMGs which even saw frequent use on HAs. The SPR, by contrast, is a weapon which despite its age belongs to the semi-auto family. A family with a piss-poor reputation. Not even people who get one for free keeps using it. Even with anti-sway thing and improvements people do not want it. So it is an extreme in the opposite direction of the Cyclone.

The trajectory the Gladius is on more resembles that of the Cyclone than the SPR. It is a young weapon with plenty of users + good performance data.

We also must take into account that Dasanfall tracks data over long periods of time. Correlating it the official site and my weapon stats it seems it is based from the very beginning. This implies that old weapons actually have more potential users from the start giving a higher population in the past. The EM1 isn't what you'd call unpopular and you can kind of see which LMGs of each faction prefer when it comes to pursuing their directive weapons. I believe the EM1 was very cheap at one point in terms of certs (changed when they rearranged their pricing). The added mechanic of having a longer max damage range intrigued a few more.

As for confirmation bias, the forums/reddit lit up with rage over the Canis (apparently the entire VS pop was using this OP toy!) who had a lot fewer users than the Gladius. When a weapon such as the Gladius rises to such heights of popularity it is no surprise people feel its presence.

TL;DR: No matter how much to twist and turn things around the Gladius is a popular weapon which performs well.

Yeah...keep going! You can talk about how awfuly, definitively definitely and disastrously wrong and untrue I am but you always fail to make a point.

You think just because you typed a number or a stat, it makes it a fact just like that. The thing is you fail to back them up and you prove me right each and every time. It's funny to me how you keep ignoring some things to make a point. You do realise that you compared a weapon (Gladius) that has barely even made a year since its release?? It's so simple for me...

For the last time...Have a nice day!

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Age + users indicates... age + users? I mean, yes? I don't know why more players than the other SMGs choose the Gladius. If I had to hazard a guess it's probably because people always say it's a good weapon when it isn't. If only I had a dollar for every time someone said "a 200 damage SMG is overpowered" without at all even glancing at the actual weapon. People are sheep.

The Cyclone sees great use because it's a great gun and because it can be used on any class, same with the Blitz. The SPR isn't used because it's not overly good and because it's somewhat specialized. Want another example? If not too bad here it is: GR-22. 143/800 Assault rifle, one players often chirp about as if it was special, but I digress. By all means a potentially very powerful gun, yet it sees little use despite it's short TTK and age. It's not available to the most popular classes (like SMGs are) and so it's usage suffers though it's a better gun than some others.

I disagree. Cyclone is a first generation SMG, which obviously means it's been around for a very long time, almost from the beginning. Yet it has thousands more users than most other guns which have been around longer before it. It's both good and universally accessible in the NC. The Gladius is the same in this respect, that it is available to all players at all times and while SMGs are strangely popular in the NC the Gladius is not nearly as high as the other two.

Actually the EM1 is exactly what I would call an "unpopular weapon." It has a terrible reputation based entirely on it's actual performance capabilities. The only two LMGs which see lower usage are the Promise ( ) and the SAW-S, which is extremely low in use.

Unfortunately we don't have access to the numbers as they were ten months ago, but if memory serves the Canis had far higher usage than the Gladius, which in turn had far more users than the Jackal. The numbers for the Canis only dropped following the nerf to developer-sanctioned auto-aim unstable ammo. We can't prove it either way though, RIP Oracle of Death.

There is no "twisting" here. The Gladius is not a very popular weapon, despite being universally available on the most popular weapon class in the NC it is painfully average in the number of users. The stats for the weapon themselves are generally about the same or higher than other SMGs, yet are still very average compared to the stats of many other weapons. Compare the Stalker automatic scout rifle for example, the only other automatic primary for infiltrators which isn't an SMG. Not known for it's extreme lethality either, is very close.

Failure to acknowledge an argument does not invalidate it.

If you make an objective claim there must be facts to support it. There are no facts supporting your claim, rather they support the inverse. You are objectively wrong on both counts, that's not up for interpretation.

Pretty sure the original comment was basically saying the same thing I was saying earlier about how the popularity numbers are not given a specific formula to consider. If it is meant to be usage in general, then it serves to reason that a new addition to the game would not have the total number of users as something that has been around longer.

Based on what I have seen, and also been hit by, the Gladius is actually pretty good. Recoil wise, it's one of the most controllable SMG's on the market, and it's bloom, while heavy, is rarely enough to matter at it's typical combat ranges thanks to the lower fire rate.

It's long range TTK is fairly poor, this is true, but it also appears to be rather consistent, a byproduct of an unusually precise SMG.

If nothing else, it appears to have become the preferred weapon of stealth for the NC by a wide margin. Most players I see running it use roughly the same build; An optic, grip, SPRW, and Hybrid suppressor. That SPRW and hybrid suppressor combo is actually quite good as well, giving you a suppressor with no performance penalties except a minor capacity reduction. Stealth with no penalty? Not a bad deal I must say.

To be clear, I am not trying to say it's OP because frankly it's not. But it is far from being a terrible weapon.

Precisely.

In addition, we have fewer players today and looking at how many people buy new weapons we also see a certain kind of reluctance to actually put down the money/certs for them. I'm glad I didn't get the Canis though I could see the nerf coming for that thing almost immediately. Whenever they try something new for VS you can just lean back and enjoy the chaos as they try to figure it out.

Also, to clarify, I'm not saying it is OP either. Just because a weapon is great/really good does not make it OP.

As I've demonstrated that's not necessarily the case. Plenty of older weapons see very little use. This is likely not the reason or at least not the only reason for it's lower usage compared to the other SMGs. As for the numbers, yes obviously they're not formulas. Yet as I have also shown the Gladius is quite average.

As I've sated previously, the recoil means exactly jack**** given the weapon's effective range. Make it kick like a SAW mixed with a Promise and it won't notably suffer. The Bloom on the other hand is terrible and always does matter in ever engagement where the target isn't totally unaware. Refer to the post #109 above where I demonstrated that despite the Galdius' low RoF it always results in a larger CoF than any of the other SMGs over the same numbers of shots. (Roughly equal to the same amount of time.)

Explain to me how you can make this claim, I genuinely don't think we're understanding each other here.

The Gladius is literally the least accurate primary in the game, and by far the least accurate SMG. I have shown this to be empirically true numerous times. It also suffers great damage degradation over range as other SMGs do, but combined with the worst primary ADS accuracy in the game and the lowest RoF of any SMG it is arguably the least consistent SMG over any range. It is in fact unusually imprecise. No other SMG has an initial CoF higher than 0.3. (Except the Tengu, which has a strafing ADS cone of 0.32. If anything, these discussions about the Gladius just demonstrate how terrible the Tengu is. )

Again no it obviously hasn't. There is ample evidence to suggest it has not. It's not even the most common SMG, how can you honestly say it's the most popular stealth weapon when it's not even the most popular weapon of its type of stealth weapons?

Thanks to the suppressor over-buffs there aren't really any guns which do suffer much from stealth anymore, if any. On SMGs and other short ranged guns a suppressor is almost a requirement now. Had one on every high RoF gun before and I'm certainly not taking them off now.

You've pointed out a few unpopular weapons but never actually come close to making a point. The SPR was actually a great example of how the community decimates certain based on the popular view it is crap. The other extreme is the Cyclone which is known as the best SMG ever and has had 6 years to reach its current numbers. Despite people of your opinion, who does everything you can to make it seem worse than it is, it has reached 4.2k users.

Weapon A has 6k users over soon 6 years.
Weapon B has 4.2k users over barely a year.
6 years is longer than one year.
The Gladius has managed to get 70% of the users of the Cyclone in 1/6th of the time.

It is a good and popular weapon. Deal with it or better yet, use a weapon you like instead of trying to tell others what to like.

Bloom per shot + low RPM + minuscule recoil + low FSR = accurate weapon for most people. Your personal failure to use it and obsession with that one statistical aspect of the weapon only makes sense in a vacuum. That, and actual data from the game.