Top 5 Vanguard Myths... with Numbers!

NC are now complaining about their tank?!?! Good Lord!!!!!!!! This reminds me of when the VS would make threads about "ZOE underperforming" back when it was invincible!

I bought a gatekeeper to try it out. I run a dedicated tank team and average 15 KPU in my prowler. I prefer the halberd, the gatekeeper can't kill infantry at all!! In any case, The vanguard is still the ONLY tank that can efficiently kill my prowler! People making threads like this are delusional and need to try other factions before saying something needs buffed!

The fact that this clown is using dasanfall for his stats proves he has an IQ of a 10 year old and is being extremely bias because he heard his "I WIN" button may get nerfed! 6 Seconds of invincibility is absolutely outrageous and shouldn't have been added to this game!

Stats on how the general population uses a tank doesn't prove how good or bad they are. You have to take a smaller sampling of data using only the best players at tanking.

Using the general player pop to see how good the vanguard is at anti-air for example is like saying:

Of all the people who use vanguards, 1% use AP rounds.

Of the 1% who use AP rounds, only 1% of those people even attempt shooting at aircraft with AP.

Of the 1% of AP users who even shoot at air, only 1% are actually good at it.

Of the 1% who are good at it, they account for 99% of all titan AP anti-air kills and 100% of the rage.

It's player skill and tactics that determine how good the tanks are.

To bring statistics showing that the vanguard is the worst performing tank only proves that vanguard drivers, on average, are worse than TR and VS tank drivers.

This being a game focused on outfits and team-oriented tactics means that tank drivers working together in a squad and actively communicating over a program like teamspeak or mumble will perform far better than those who aren't.

The NC have been complaining about their tank for a long time, simply because it is statistically an inferior tank. There is no evidence to support that back in 2014 the Vanguard was remotely more threatening than other tanks. Today in 2015 it is generally on par with other tanks in an AV role, but falls behind in an AI role. Still not "the best" tank.

And I would think that if someone who properly uses server-wide statistics had the IQ of a 10 year old... then someone who bases their entire interpretation on personal anecdotes must be entirely brain dead. Statistical evidence > personal anecdotes.

Stats on how the general population uses a tank is a rough estimation of the impact of a tank on the outcome of a general battle. Although there may be very good players, those players are relatively few and thus can't easily determine the outcome of a general battle that's larger than a few squads.

Moreover those good players are already included in the stats... along with very bad players. The stats skip over almost no one.

Unless your goal is only to focus on high BR battles, in statistics it is generally better to use large sample sizes, not smaller ones, to help eliminate flukes and such.

If the raw stats were provided, it would be pretty easy to test for normality and see whether there's a skew in the sample.

Take a look at this page: http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthly-vehicle-deaths/

Magrider deaths last month:
Titan AP: 14665
P2 AP: 13545

Prowler deaths last month:
Titan AP: 20002
Supernova FPC: 13942

Vanguard deaths last month:
P2 AP: 17167
Supernova FPC: 11484

Magrider definitely looks as the worst anti-tank tank. Of course if you mentioned this then someone would point out that Magrider VKPH is in line with other tanks.

If Magrider can have balanced VKPH but severely underperform in tank vs tank combat then it is certainly possible that Titan-AP was number 1 tank killer year ago despite its low VKPH.

Thanks for posting those stats, cipher I agree, I was almost thinking of switching to vanu because I like the way allot of their weapons work, including max suit, though liking tanking, and doing tank tatics, the Magrider just doesn't cut it. The lack of turret means you can't do hull down stuff.

Mabey its good as a skimerisher, with that fancy sped but not sure what else.

The stats indicate that the vanguard isn't underpowerard, and likely a bit stronger tank vs tank. The gun of course is good deadly alpha for pop-in and out of cover shooting, and the shield can be used during any duel as a I win button, or a get out of jail free card.

On the flip side the prowler while not as much of a brawler is definatly better for sniping and farming infantry kills, you can do it with the ap rounds direct hit pops infantry, and you got two rapid firing shots to the vanguards one.

Now that the prowler has the gatekeeper, they have a gun that is a exquivelent to the enforcer, and enhances any prowler going sniper mode.

All in all, the magrider is probably the tank that needs the biggest change.

Have you adjusted your data for hours of usage?

In other words, if there are more hours of NC tanks running around, then it is expected to see that the Vanguard will account for the most tank kills... simply because there are more of them. This is not a reflection of course on how effective an individual Vanguard might be.

For example, here's the data on daily AP cannon usage:

Vanguard AP: 456.9 hours
Prowler AP: 419.2 hours
Magrider AP: 361.9 hours

So if I take the data you presented and divided each value by the number of hours, I get...

Magrider Deaths:
Prowler AP: 32.3
Vanguard AP: 32.1

Prowler Deaths:
Vanguard AP: 43.8
Magrider AP: 38.5

Vanguard Deaths:
Prowler AP: 41.0
Magrider AP: 31.7

After taking into account usage difference, we see that:
1) Prowlers are actually slightly more effective in destroying Magriders than Vanguards are.
2) Vanguards are significantly better at killing Prowlers than Magriders are.
3) Magriders kill more Prowlers than Prowlers kill Magriders.
4) Prowlers kill more Vanguards than Vanguards kill Prowlers.
5) Vanguards kill Magriders slightly better than Magriders kill Vanguards.

Not really strong evidence that the Vanguard is even close to the best anti-MBT tank. Prowlers are more effective at taking out Magriders than Vanguards are, for example. And per hour of use, Magriders and Vanguards are about as equally effective as each other.

even as primarily a mag driver im going to have to agree with the OP here
the van isnt as good as the other 2 tanks - but it isnt MASSIVELY worse imo
its a lot more situational

up close its game over - the vanguard with any decent driver should murder any other tank maybe even two
but just like how most infantry combat is close quarters, most vehicle combat is long distance

vanguards should be using stealth and the racer chassis to sneak up on other tanks, because i can tell you right now nothing scares a mag driver more than a vanguard popping up right next to you from nowhere - you mentally say to yourself "game over" when it happens

i think (yeah yeah i know lots of VS say this) more vanguards should try and get a secondary gunner because it really does make a massive difference

i dont think its a horrible tank, it just needs to be used more differently than how im seeing them being used in the field atm
-get gunners
-get stealth
-battle other tanks on YOUR terms at point blank distance

For "All BR" Vehicle Death Causes: P2-120 AP outperforms Titan-150 AP vs. Gals. Titan-150 AP outperforms P2-120 AP vs. ESFs, Valks, and Libs.
source: http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthly-vehicle-deaths/

I can appreciate that ESF kills don't make up a lot of the Vangurd diet. But Vanguard Titan-150 AP is still a top tier danger to ESFs.

As a Sniper, I can't OHK targets that are too far out. I tried to precision test Sniper Limit in VR, but the targets weren't rendering. But from a recent setup from 630 meters (from ridge west of West Highlands Checkpoint to targets on south facing of Indar Comm Array) I was unable to get OHK on Headshots w/ Top Tier Bolt Action on targets (was having to hit them twice). Titan-150 AP OHK sniping full health ESFs off a Resupply Platform 2 bases and 930+ meters away is no joke.

Skyguards work great against ESFs: I try to stay the heck away from them and avoid the area unless they are (1) alone and have lots of safe approaches to them; or (2) if there is just 1 of them and a swarm of Air or close Allies and then Q-Spotting and doing a quick attack usually can get the others to swarm it. Otherwise it's a lockdown. Vanguards kill me more, but they don't keep me out of any area they are in. Skyguards keep me out of an entire huge, line-of-sight area.

If you want to increase Skyguard kills of ESFs. Then you are looking at changing the role of the Skyguard: from Air Deterence to Air Destruction. Decrease their ability to keep an area clear, and then ESFs will get closer to them. It's hard to kill a lot of units that stay away from you. Or decrease their mobility (this can be done as a player, I am not saying as a nerf), MAXs kill more ESFs because the MAXs are slow and stick around other MAXs and ally AA, while Skyguards often spread out as solo AA and lose out on multi-unit stack damage. I am all for bumping the XP Skyguards get for partial damage, since that is really what their role is: clear the skies. Skyguards and 2x Burster can kill a full health ESF in ~5 seconds and they can hit targets (at a much lower damage rate) out to 950+ meters (I just died to one from that chipped me out from that distance), a Sunderer Walker has worse range (and can't aim down) but can kill in 4 seconds. The Skyguard/Burster keeps ESFs off the area, the Walker keeps the ESF off the Sunderer.

Skyguard is the TOP non-ESF/non-Max killer of All BR Scythes. They are #2 non-ESF/non-Max killer vs. Q4 Scythes/Mosquitoes (ranking higher than Titan-150 AP for Mosquito, below for Scythe). And they only don't put up stats vs. me because I look for Lightnings and (sometimes after prodding them to see if they are a Skyguard) STAY AWAY FROM THEM.

Like it or not, the average performance of the general population is what determines which faction does better on average. Can you claim in good conscience that the vast majority of all NC players across ALL servers just happen to be worse at the game than players of the other two factions? Not likely. It's certainly possible the Vanguard does worse because it has a higher skill floor, which may be true, due to the way its horrible mobility punishes bad positioning.

701 - NC Aspis Phalanx Turret (AA) | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 7.72
702 - TR Aspis Phalanx Turret (AA) | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 7.64
700 - VS Aspis Phalanx Turret (AA) | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 7.43
3106 - VS Skyguard | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 6.31
3107 - NC Skyguard | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 6.18
3108 - TR Skyguard | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 6.00
33004 - Hawk GD-68 | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 3.73
35004 - Nemesis VSH9 | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 3.71
34004 - ASP-30 Grounder | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 3.58
300202 - NC Annihilator | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 3.40
300201 - VS Annihilator | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 3.32
300203 - TR Annihilator | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 3.25
300301 - VS R3 Swarm | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 2.96
300303 - TR R3 Swarm | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 2.93
300302 - NC R3 Swarm | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 2.86
17004 - VS NS-10 Burster-Right | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 2.72
16004 - NC NS-10 Burster-Right | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 2.69
15004 - TR NS-10 Burster-Right | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 2.54
300101 - VS Decimator | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 2.30
300102 - NC Decimator | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 2.06
300103 - TR Decimator | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 1.99
3730 - Titan-150 AP | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 1.99
4008 - P2-120 AP | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 1.30
3460 - Supernova FPC | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 1.21



A "top tier danger" to ESFs? A "danger" yes, a bit more so that the Prowler AP or Mag AP, perhaps, but much, much, much less so that say a Skyguard or any other AA which are "top tier" (by quite a lot more 2 to 3 times more at least).


34002 - T2 Striker | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 3.10
35002 - Lancer VS22 | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 1.28
33002 - NC15 Phoenix | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 1.02

The Phoenix is also a "danger" to ESFs (as it can effectively 1 shot if they don't have repair), but equally it doesn't actually kill a lot of them overall.


The Vanguard is decently better at AA than the Prowler or Magrider, but it is NOT remotely an AA platform or weapon.

What if Magriders avoid attacking Vanguards thanks to i-win shield? Lets try alternative approach.

Tanks destroyed by other tanks within last 30 days:
Vanguards destroyed: 28 651; 955 per day
Magriders destroyed: 28 210; 940 per day
Prowlers destroyed: 33 944; 1131 per day

Vanguard play time: 456
Magrider play time: 361
Prowler play time: 419

Vanguards destroyed by other tanks per hour: 2,09
Magriders destroyed by other tanks per hour: 2,6
Prowlers destroyed by other tanks per hour: 2,69

Vanguards destroyed by Prowlers and Magriders: 28 651
Prowlers and Magriders destroyed by Vanguards: 34 667

Vanguard tank kill-death ratio is 1.2
Prowler tank kill-death ratio is 0.9
Magrider tank kill-death ratio is 0.9

In summary:
1)All tanks have similar VKPH
2)Vanguard has much lower death rate than Magrider and Prowler

So the way I see it all tanks have similar VKPH, Vanguard also has best survivability, Prowler has best anti-infantry capability and Magrider has best what? Strafing ability? Where does that help? I guess now we know why Magrider is least used tank. I'm not listing this to justify buffs/nerfs. The differences between tanks aren't that large, infantry doesn't need tanks to protect them against enemy tanks and VS has other "overperforming" stuff such as LMGs.

My point is that KPH shouldn't be used as standalone metric. It can't capture a lot of whats going on the battlefield. And yes, Vanguard definitely is best anti-tank tank if you consider than Vanguards kill more Prowlers and Magrider than they die to them.

Problem is you are comparing tank cannon to infantry rocket launchers.

Infantry will switch to rocket launcher once enemy vehicle is nearby and only then will play time start ticking.
Vanguard's main cannon is always active and play time will always be ticking no matter whether there are any aircraft around.

Similarly AA turrets and Skyguards will be used/spawned only when there is enemy aircraft around.

So as you can see MBT air KPH is heavily deflated. Comparing them to other AA weapons isn't so straightforward as it is comparing them to each other. You'd have to figure out how to adjust the stats for time spent not fighting aircraft.

Take a look at http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthly-vehicle-deaths/. AP cannon rounds are much often causes of aircraft death than Skyguards/AA turrets and rocket launchers despite having much lower air KPH.

Damage dealt versus: deaths "and" playtime, would probably be the most accurate comparison.
As weapon and handling characteristics differ, in a vanguard I notice strongly that it's characteristics are beneficial in a zerg becuase of the alpha damage it has (high up front damage).
The Titan 150 AP, is kill-wise the best kill-steal weapon in planetside, kills are therefor not an honest metric. Very noticable when I top gun with people, if you drive with a ******-bag he will wait for fire and kill-steal with the main gun.

You are doing the frequent ground player error: treating a specific Air Unit as "Air" (the group) or vice versa. I see this a lot when people reference Lib performance, but refer to it as "Air" performance instead. Here, you are showing stats for "Air", but then refer to ESFs.

I am not trying to say Titan-150 AP is a major factor for Air as a group (I don't play the rest of Air and also have not crunched much numbers for them). I am not trying to say that Titan-150 AP eats much Air in its diet. I am saying primarily Titan-150 AP is a significant danger for ESF pilots.

Titan-150 AP is:
1) the #3 non-Max Ground Unit Killer for All BR ESFs
2) the #1 non-Max Ground Unit Killer for Q4 Scythes
3) the #4 non-Max Ground Unit Killer for Q4 Mosquitoes

NOTE: these numbers are for "Titan-150 AP" and not "Vanguard", which is significantly misleading in some ways. Because units like HA have MANY more quality AA options, a conversation about Unit vs. Unit [Vanguard vs. HA vs. Lightning, etc.] should stack all the different HA AA Weapon stats together. Vanguard would drop to #4, #2, and #5 respectively on the rankings above.

Titan-150 AP/Vanguard is a danger level for Scythes/Mosquitoes that drops at lower Vanguard populations (since you can eyeball them better and account for them), or when Vanguards are more clumped (since you can work around their Aim), when Vanguard populations are less mobile (since you won't be surprised by them showing up at a new location), or when line-of-sight for ground units is short/poor. And a danger that climbs at higher Vanguard populations, when Vanguards are more spread out, when Vanguard populations are more mobile, or when line-of-sight for ground units is far/good.

In contrast, the Magrider and Prowler do not have anywhere near that threat level to ESFs. I know when I fly my Reaver, I don't have to realistically worry about MBTs (though I'm still wary of going CQC with a Mag that is using terrain to tilt its Primary up at me).

As a pilot I don't really fear the Lancer (though I died to one recently, it was just one of many hits I was taking and happened to end up being the final hit: I very rarely get hit or affect by Lancer).

I have been flying a lot of Mosquito lately (mostly because I have been playing mostly TR lately), so I don't know the affect of current Striker.

Phoenix is a legit threat if I go AI CQC with my ESF, especially if I am dawdling over the target area or trying to maneuver to peek into a window or under a bridge overhang, if there is enemy Air, enemy AA, or damage from other sources to chip me out if I get hit, etc. It stands out mostly cause the other HA Dumbfires are just so slow, have big drop, and even slight ESF position changes throws off their aim. But on the flip side, Phoenix does not OHK (close, but not 100%) and the Fire Suppression is so heavily used in ESF Loadouts, so it's threat level is significantly lower than what it would be if it were a true OHK.

If it's not significant to Titan-150 AP users that they can OHK ESFs, then maybe we should get rid of that ability (or buff other MBTs to have it). It would get rid of a threat anomaly between the ESFs.

On the note of whether to buff the prowlers and magriders to make up for the Titan AP's ability to OHK ESF's, also consider that the prowler has the vulcan and the magrider has the saron. When I play on my alts I use those as anti-air weapons along with my AP.

I'm also willing to bet that the gatekeeper's high velocity means the high BR tankers are already experimenting with its effectiveness against air.

Or what about ....
A picture taken /by Calisai) to demonstrate the deficiency of magrider gun elevation. Both the Prowler and Vanguard can aim at the red line.

What's important here is that on top of not being able to aim as high, the Mag still have the by far slowest main gun shots. Prior to the GK being added, I seem to recall that the anti-ESF numbers for the FPC and P2-120AP were roughly the same (or was it air, I forget). That in spite of the P2-120AP needing to land more shots/unable to 1-shot ESFs, which the FPC is able to.

Not related to the VG, strictly speaking but worth considering as far as the various MBTs and their AA capabilities are discussed.

What about when you use an incline in the terrain to raise your gun elevation? Most good tankers stay close to some kind of cover that they can use as a hull down position and to drive their vehicle up on to aim higher.

Also, when I use hornets, magriders who are aware of me attacking them are the hardest to hit because of their magburn and the unpredictability of their strafing.

Now do the performance stats cover which tank has the best hull, turret placement, and height to most effectively utilize a hull down position?

How many tank users run max vehicle stealth? It's a piece of the loadout I consider crucial when doing anti-air in an MBT. The same with hornet pilots.

Sure, but while the mag can do it easier, it's notably worse overall at firing back at air. The lack of a turret also plays a role, in addition to the aforementioned elevation and velocity.

Not to mention a not-brain-dead air-user can easily (and yes, it's not hard) counter it by simply moving to the other side, or straight above the tank.