Devs: Magrider Issues

Oh skill level via statistics is irrelevent now is it? Thought you loved statistics, but I guess you don't when they prove that your supporter is a worse player than an appoosing one eh.

In which case, his video is irrelevent to your supporting arugment too. Strike that off your-side.

No, INDIVIDUAL SKILL IN RELATION TO THE CLIPS is irrelevant. Dont try and twist my words. And if you arent trying to twist my words then try and pay more attention to what I'm writing so you get to the correct conclusion.

And hey, this "inferior" player is effectively using tactics that I personally have used as well and with effect.

Also, individual skill based on statistics is something I've already warned against. Take KD, it doesnt prove you are a good player, it COULD prove it. But you might have gotten a high KD by farming and/or simply selecting fights to be in your favor. A lower KD while fighting high risk scenario's or doing things like AV combat is far more impressive, but its hard to see based on stats how they play.

So you have to go on what the average person achieves by lumping as many together as possible. This way you even out the peaks and lows caused by player preferences, combat styles, farmers, average combat situation, individual skill and (local) population.

Ofcourse like Brooder you could keep going on about the useless individual skill, or how positioning is a bad thing. But think about that: you (or Brooder and the rest at least) profess to have a problem, and when supposedly less skilled players have success with the tactics that you say are useless... shouldnt you listen to them? They ARE successful. And not only that, its backed up with video evidence and statistics! Its not like the arguments are held together by anecdotes and a neanderthal attitude of "we must have played more and anyone who says something else than us must be wrong"

Look, it doesnt matter if I have 5 minutes time in a Magrider or 1000 hours, MY ARGUMENTS REMAIN OBJECTIVE AND CAN BE PROVEN. They do not get any more or less valid because I play more or less. They remain just as valid.

If a player holding a sniper rifle is ambushed by a guy with a shotgun, what does the sniper do? He says," Damn, I shouldn't have let him get so close to me."

And if he feels he could not have done anything about it, what would the player with the shotgun say when he suddenly takes two to the back of the head from a hidden stalker? "Damn, I had no idea he was even there."

If a Vanguard makes its way over to be in point blank range of a Magrider (whom then does nothing to attempt to control the engagement) the Vanguard won on his own merits.

To be fair, with the power of editing you can make anything look good. I mean, the situations put forth in these videos and how it was done is not easily replicable. Doesn't mean they're bad advice or solid tactics. A single video where the stars align and you have 5 useless harasser players dying one by one to a Magrider (I mean that was impressively bad) and even in the video which showed solid tactics with a Magrider the Prowlers/Vanguards in those videos had spectacularly terrible situational awareness.

...And that's the thing with videos. Confirmation bias tend to lead you by the nose and it is super easy to nitpick and reverse-engineer a conclusion which suits you.

Now, having tracked real time data for awhile (focusing on prime time on EU servers)I don't see much evidence the Magrider is UP or OP but the Vanguard is often performing best of the all. At one point having more kills than both the Maggie/Prowler combined, this was an anomaly though and you should expect spikes and there was also times when the Maggie took a good lead too. It has hard to extrapolate anything rock solid though since the data is lacking and hard to contextualise.

So the Maggie can so some unique stuff but at the same time it can't do what the other MBTs can. Cuts both ways. Having a turret on Hossin is IMO a real blessing which with a Maggie getting snagged throws your aim off. Obviously not always but, gain, pros and cons. Play in a way which makes your tank better... (I know, cpt obvious here).

Some stats from my yesterday evening Magrider&Lightning session.
Total duration 2hrs 30 mins.
Esamir large frozen river/field near Mani Tower and surrounding hills. Battles against TR.

Magrider (rival, Stealth):
Session duration ~1hour.
I've killed: 1 mosquito, 2 Prowlers, 3 Sunderers, 2 Lightnings, 2 Harassers, many infantry and turrets. I got killed mostly by Vulcan Harassers because I'm to slow to turn magrider to aim that fast thing circling around.
My K/D ~3.25
Of course I had to stay mostly behind Sundys and Lightnings because of my slow speed.

Ligtning (racer, AP, Stealth):
Session duration ~1hour and 30 mins
I've killed: 3 Liberators, 3 mosquitos, 1 reaver, 3 prowlers, 4 sundys, 3 lightnings, 5 harassers, no infantry and no turrets. Because of speed and fast turning rate of main gun, I could compete and even hunt prowlers and harassers. K/D ~3.75

There were much more VS Lightnings than the Magriders.

So this is the answer why VS prefer Lightnings in vehicular combat. It is cheaper, faster, easy to long range shooting. So the Magrider isn't MBT, it is good at killing infantry, slow sundys and alone lightnings but not the other MBTs.

Thanks for proving you are biased and untrustworthy!

First of all, a single session isnt a good way to judge this, and we dont have any data on your gunner. If your gunner also killed 2 of each your Magrider session already outperforms the Lightning.

Also you soooo painstackingly mention the KD... But where's thr VKD? You take all that supposed bullsh... I mean effort to record your total time played and the amount of kills, but you just so happen to fail to mention VKD and your gunner's achievements?

Dont tell me you personally are so bad at the Magrider that you added the gunner stats as well, because that's all you are showing here: that you suck playing the Magrider despite all the time you put in.

Also the Lightning is simply one of the most underrated vehicles in the game. I just checked and I score better with my Lightning than most Vanguard guns. So apparently the Vanguard is inferior to the Lightning! There I've proven it! Almost the exact same proof as you have!

Ofcourse the most damning bias is this phrase:

If you are unable to turn fast enough to keep track of Harassers nearby you, then the only 2 conclusions that are acceptable is that either your brain is so slow it takes a literal second to react to anything or your mouse settings are so slow that you will never even reach half the Magrider's maximum turn velocity.

You can turn so fast that a Harasser that drives underneath you barely has a chance to reach the other side before you've turned as well. Your bias is so strong your brain makes it seem like the Magrider turns like a Vanguard.

Demigan stop trolling.
Go and play few sessions instead of posting another 10000 words and crap like advice to turn magrider to get out of harasser underneath because "I've tested it in VR" and "You can turn so fast that a Harasser that drives underneath you barely has a chance to reach the other side before you've turned as well".
YOU CANT BECAUSE OF ROTATION SPEED CAP and it has nothing in common with mouse and brain.

Also you note VKD and gunner stats and biased brain...
Why are you doing this ?
I've played solo, without a gunner with my Magrider locked.
You type 5 messages a day (average since 2014) and every message is sermon, you clog every thread.
Go and play instead of posting, liberate few continents in a Magrider and in a Lightning, compare to other tanks and then MAYBE you will perceive what we are talking here.

Now if I was all that then it shouldn't be hard to prove me wrong now would it? Naturally someone who is oh so superior to me does not have to resort to insults right?

So far the most tangible proof from the Magrider UP" sideis some video's showing players who are supposed to be good but play with the awareness of people still trying to figure out how the WASD keys work.

Yet we continuously see lies being repeated as gospel in this thread.

• copious amounts more lightnings are pulled than Magriders!
  • Except as Campagne proved there are slightly more Lightnings pulled per player for VS, the amount of Magriders pulled does not suffer and remains as high as that of the other factions.
• Enemies keep getting under me!
  • Using almost any button input can get you off your opponent. This is one time where smashing your keyboard might actually still save your skin. Even standing stationary and just turning can in some cases get you off your enemy in a timely fashion. And with a half-decent grasp of predicting where your enemy will be you can turn this into an advantage to yourself.
• Our MBT is the worst!
  • The Magrider keeps up with the Vanguard in MBT kills (and vehicle+infantry kills in general including the topguns). In fact there are many signs the Magrider scores better than the Vanguard.
• There's this killzone if you get too close to opposing MBT's!
  • As proven with video evidence and reinforced by the "evidence" given by the "Magrider UP" crowd this is blatantly false. In fact the VS acts to try and avoid these ranges are the cause for their destruction as shown by their own video. If they actively embraced these tactics the problem would be gone.

Now again, if you think I'm wrong and all those insults, then it shouldn't be hard to prove your point without resorting to anecdotal evidence and "but we gots experience so your view is wrong!" So once more
Prove your point.

I've been keeping quite about most of the stuff you've been saying, as I know there are two sides to every coin and I agree with some of the points you've made (pull count, total kills, etc), but if you think a magrider has any chance of beating a semi-decent prowler or vanguard in a head to head in close, it seriously detracts from your arguments. As for video evidence, no-one is going to put videos up of getting owned over and over. And no-one (except for maybe waawaa) would feel the need to post their one on one MBT prowess knowing the other guy had no meaningful chance.

Stick with the pure numbers argument - it's the most defensible. Also, since the vanguard shield changes, most competent mag pilots I know are accepting of loosing in close to one knowing the van's other drawbacks.

Probably time to shift the discussion on why the prowler does better than the other two.

As for my other suggested improvements, increasing main gun elevation would not affect ground vehicle balance in any way. You can also increase turn rate to something similar to what I was suggesting right now if you use the keyboard, but it's a PITA. Basically, the mag driver's vertical mouse speed is double the horizontal - so if you get your turn rate up to max, the vertical is hyper sensitive. I experimented with doubling the horizontal DPI to that of the vertical and driving the mag was awesome! Too bad it wrecks the rest of your game.

You are missing something, which is "the other side". People might not put video's up of getting owned, but they would of owning Magriders. So far the video's shown have only shown incredibly weak gameplay from players that take an entire reload cycle to react to enemy fire to deliberately placing themselves in a bad position to yes even trying to stay out of that "head to head close" range and by doing that effectively staying at a perfect distance and stopping their strafing for the opponent to shoot them.

The video evidence is out there of how and why Magriders lose by viewing how Prowlers and Vanguards engage Magriders and watching the Mag reaction. Did you seriously not realize this? I mean you seriously thought that there would be no evidence purely because it has to be from someone else's perspective?

But the problem here is that you set the bar for "competent mag pilots". Which as far as this thread has shown is "anyone who agrees with me". And if you want to really seem like a reasonable guy then you should also point out flaws in the arguments of the Magrider UP crowd. Yet you do not correct them, you do not try to steer the discussion in the right direction.

Imagine you are right and the Magrider is UP, but because you never corrected your buddies on anything wrong, then you know that the buffs for the Magrider will also be based on those wrong idea's. The Magrider UP crowd would only accept it if the Magrider was pulled equally to Lightnings, but that would indicate the Magrider is also far superior to the Prowler and Vanguard as those aren't pulled as much as the Lightning either! So you are at fault, you should continuously point out flaws from anyone and try to get an as fair and correct discussion as possible so the Magrider get's what it deserves, and not be kept in a bad shape (which it isn't) or buffed to OPness.

Higher DPS overall, 2 shots per magazine making it easier to judge range and kill infantry, easy to use tank in terms of velocity and maneuverability, the barrage ability which is almost on par with the Vanguard Shield in terms of effectiveness and useability due to the fact that you can expect it to be used at least once in every Prowler pull compared to once in a blue moon when it was still completely Anchor Mode.

Increasing main gun elevation is something you could give the Magrider, it would help it against aircraft and god knows aircraft already have it too easy.

Turn rate shouldn't be altered. It would affect how easy the Magrider would be hit in the rear even more. I would even just remove the Keyboard turn option as you should simply be able to turn as fast regardless of keyboard or mouse. Since the Magrider already performs similar if not better than the Vanguard it would only increase the differences rather than make things more equal.
Unless ofcourse you want to improve the Vanguard simultaneously to keep things fair (but improve it how?). Since the Prowler already outperforms others there wouldn't be a harm in improving both the Vanguard and Magrider simultaneously to achieve a better balance between all 3 MBT's.

Said NC's adept
Yeah, keep Magrider as weak as it is now in favour of Demigan
I suspect Demigan is being low skill NC player because of his opposition to the discussion of Magrider issues.[/quote]

So that's all you can come up with? The equivalent of a child hearing something he doesn't like and going "yeah but you are STUPID!"?

I'll just go back to this and encourage you to do it:

It would be easier if I just posted a 10 min clip of me getting owned while getting the first hits in, not missing a shot, and still dying with the other tank at half health. Don't see the point when the take away would be don't get caught in close. If I thought it would make an actual difference other than swaying opinions on a forum no-one reads then i'd do it.

Proposing minor changes that either don't effect vehicle balance or can already be achieved by those so inclined sounds like steering the discussion in the right direction. Anyone who has read my comments previously know I think the idea of an omniburn is absurd. I know that increasing strafe speed is walking a fine line to OP'ness so i'm hesitant to suggest that. As for increasing magburn duration, it already happens on and off due to server load and no-one is complaining. As I said before, I don't believe it would help in a one on one other than getting away. I've nothing to add regarding numbers pulled. I had no opinion either way and you gave definitive numbers in any case. It's always been my belief that a 1/2 mag is better than a lightning (but i'm biased). For what it's worth, I've already messaged Wrel that I think allowing fire suppression with stealth and magburn on PTS is the wrong way to go. I can't believe more aren't complaining about it as it's more OP IMO than most things discussed here.

Not sure you follow. Max turn speed wouldn't need changing as you can already turn as fast with the mouse as you can with the keyboard, it's just not practical as getting it that point makes vertical sensitivity too high. The keyboard allows you to turn at the max turn rate immediately which is why those with 6 fingers can key strafe, key turn, key move back/forward, magburn and mouse turn/aim at the same time. For the rest of us it's too much. I've tried binding it to middle mouse button left/right but it interferes with clicking. I'm proposing the mouse x/y DPI difference be reduced allowing the max turn rate to be more easily hit.

The other MBT's don't need to hit the mag in the rear to win. And let's admit it, if a mag gets flanked you are going to get the rear hit regardless in which case it has absolutely no chance.

Agreed. Lockdown was never much of an issue for me as I could always get out of the way or avoid altogether. It was also a great way to find / flank a tunnel visioned prowler. Now they get to use increased DPS on the fly which I can't avoid. It totally changed the MBT vs MBT dynamic. That and prowlers being able to more easily climb hills that were once the mag's domain.

That's only fair if you also try the proposed alternatives for 10 minutes (after at least a few days of testing and trying to get the hang of them). If you keep doing the things that we tell you is wrong and get you killed but then do those things anyway with the proclamation of "see? I was right that the magrider is bad" instead of the actual displayed tactics, then we are getting nowhere.

And unfortunately if you do that we also have to review your opponents. If your opponents are clearly more skilled than you are then it becomes meaningless, similarily if your opponents are wet paper tissue's and you win hard during those 10 minutes we can't immediately proclaim that the Magrider is A-OK after you post the results. So what we could do is try to come up with something that is objective and not subjective, something that takes in all scenario's, on all continents, fighting all different factions, fighting any type of units, from any warpgate, including the worst of the worst and the best of the best and anyone inbetween that is driving the Magrider.

Say the performance statistics each MBT manages to achieve?

Wait, the Magrider is getting auto-granted magburn and can then pick fire suppression next to it on the PTS? Holy crap that would effectively give Magriders 5600 health along with dodging capabilities and all the other stuff.

Anyway, if you are a moderate voice it was drowned out by the salivating hordes around you. Also your responses weren't great. For example in this thread your first responses first tell how Magriders automatically die in short range engagements with other MBT's and how the game is all about MBT's. But then you also say that the numbers might show that the Magrider keeps up with the other two but that that's basically inconsequential.
Neither can be true at the same time. If almost all fights happen in close ranges then the Magrider can't possibly keep up with the other two tanks.

Which only goes to show how important it is to have a fair, equal discussion rather than a shouting match.

But what concerns me here is that you seem to acknowledge that the Vanguard is about as good as the Magrider, and while you are offering solutions for the Magrider to try and make it more enjoyable, which is an awesome thing to strive for, you fail to provide the same for the Vanguard, meaning the Vanguard is left in the dust and will undoubtedly start dangling even farther down the ladder than it already does.

Could you in the future try and fit your suggestions in the larger whole? Say "let's make mouse-steering equal to keyboard steering making all Magriders more easily controlled, but to prevent the Vanguard getting an even stickier end of the stick we'll add X to it". Where X could be anything from the same maximum speed for reverse driving as for forwards driving to a powerful engine that allows Vanguards to push any object and deal more damage with ramming to whatever else you can think off.

I understand, but I approach it from a different direction.

To you this ability already exists, but as you mention it's a finger-breaking maneuver to use effectively. This means that the lionshare of all Magriders will never effectively use this, and the average turn velocity of Magriders is lower than that max speed. If you allow everyone to do it with the mouse then you are effectively buffing the Magrider to turn faster rather than unlocking something everyone can already do. So the better solution is to nerf the keyboard-turn velocity to an equal speed of mouse-turning, whatever that speed actually is as it seems to be a fluctuating speed depending on your mouse settings.

This is basically the same as the Lockdown you mention. It was used by few people and even fewer used it effectively. With the introduction of Barrage the total power you can squeeze out might be a bit lower, but the amount of times that power is used and how easy it is to use the actual power behind the ability has skyrocketed.

The Mag can also win by hitting in the side armor and dodging one, maybe two shots depending on who they are fighting. Also the Mag can use cover to a better degree than the other two tanks, allowing more vehicles to engage the enemy at any one time. PS2 isn't just about a series of 1v1's, it's a constant fight of many factors. Just having a single infantry unit nearby can change the entire dynamic of a fight, let alone having two armor columns try to beat each other where the biggest factor of who wins is having as many guns firing at the same target, spreading as much damage across as many tanks you have and having the best access to cover without interfering with nearby allies. In all these categories the Magrider is the best tank to pick. Individual statistics like DPS per tank are all secondary to such capabilities.

You left out an important qualifier here - the skill of the opponent. What I was trying to say was that perhaps it's an indication that there are a few great MBT drivers on all sides farming more than their share but when it comes duals with other MBT's of equal skill, especially in close, there really is no comparison. The numbers may even out over the whole. Would really like to see some sort of breakdown on that if it were possible.

I think we can eliminate that idea. If a few individuals could have a large effect on the total score of the MBT's then we should see a similar differences with the Lightning guns, but those guns are all so close together that scientifically you can barely even say there is a difference. This remains true on repeated viewing, so a group of high-skill players not being active for a while or being extremely active does not have a large impact on these stats.

What remains is that these stats are pretty representative. Since Dasanfall tracks overall stats since it's inception the stats of OP or UP periods are included, but you can actually check if the weapon is still affected by this. If the stats are gradually declining then the equipment is weaker than shown, the slower its decline the closer it gets to the "real" stats. If the stats are gradually improving then the equipment is better than the stats suggest, the slower this improvement the closer to its "real" stats.

But the Magrider's stats are still equal if not better than the Vanguard's. The Prowler is ignored for the moment as its maingun/topgun stats are far different. This means that no matter which way you turn the Magrider has to be as equal or more powerful than the Vanguard regardless of perceptions.

Edit:
This is actually a universal truth. All carbon-copy weapons, ignoring starterweapons, are almost exactly equal among all factions. This is a good way to gauge how skill differences are between factions, which are apparently absent. This means that any and all differences of weapons and equipment that is used by a decent group of people can only come from the weapon, not the individual skill.

The real question is: How long does it take to get good skilled/effective with a Prowler, a Vanguard or a Magrider. Which one is more "newbie" friendly? Which one you can just hop in and go straight into combat, toe to toe against other tanks? And with which one that does not function? Because that's exactly what people suggest from a Main Battle Tank. In case of the Magrider there's a steep learning curve. As a newbie you will get destroyed an awful lot of times till you figure things at least halfway out.

These would be the statistics that would be interesting. How many hours/days does the average player need to master one of the MBT's?

Well a good statistic would include the gradual change from newb to veteran, and the average skill that people will achieve with it and the veterans that take that gameplay even farther. Then combine all that into a single statistic to show what the tank will achieve on average by all these people.

Something like the overall average statistics that have been used already.

the magrider is better at most other things than actually being a tank, its better at killing harassers and fast vehicles its better at farming infantry its better at getting into places to do these things
but the second theres a prowler or vanguard around you basically have to run they will smash you into the ground

i have used all the factions and i main tank with thousands and thousands of hours in them and have 2x lvl 100+ VS a lvl 100+ TR and a 60something NC (admittedly i havnt played as much nc) and as an actual tank the TR and NC have way better options

Exactly what this thread is about!
In general Magrider can not compete to other MBTs in direct contact. It is good as a support vehicle, it is good in making the ambush for a single tanks. Anyway this doesn't mean one can't use Magrider to kill Prowlers and Vanguards in 1v1 fights - just more skill and luck are required.
That is why there are few suggestions in the previous messages to make Magrider a competitive:

IF Prowler is the best in DPS and Vanguard is the best in shields then MAKE Magrider best in maneuverability: add some rotation speed, and more magburner.
IMO: for the start the "more magburner" option would be enough.

This will not dramatically change the MBT's balance but will make Magrider usage more attractive in tanks battles.