All I'm seeing here is a load of theorycrafting and VS still having the same OP AV they had yesterday. Thanks for your work though, OP.
Others numbers: Substained DPS (per arm): Comets: 475 + 80 splash DPS. (2sec per shoot + reload cycle, 950 damages+160 splash per cycle). Difficulty to use: low (no drop, almost no convergence, is okish on split setup) Average+ damages, fast ROF and fast reload. Utility: ZoE increase damages by around 25% and 2 shots infantries = instagib with dual weapons. (without considering other ZoE sides) Pounders: 358 + 63 splash DPS. (4.75sec per shoot + reload cycle, 1700 damages + 300 splash per mag) Difficulty to use: Hard (bad covergence, high drop) Average- damages, average ROF and long reload. Protip: very useful with lockdown (higher ROF, faster reload), but lockdown very very very situational and will get you often killed. Falcons: 416 + 38 splash DPS. (2.1 sec reload cycle, 875 + 80 damages per mag.) Difficulty to use: Hard (bad convergence, low acceleration) High damage, low ROF, average reload. Protip: Shield can be used during reload but you won't be able to compensate for the convergence. Yeah definitly Falcons = pounders >>>>>>> Comets. Sarcasm/ Oh and there is some mistakes in your stats, like time to magdump. Comets:0.9 0.5sec. Falcons: 0.6 0 sec. Pounders: 2.5 3 sec (without lockdown) Edit: other fun fact: MAX AV weapons don't have....headshots multipliers.
Problem is, in a 20m² room, slugs are strictly superior. They kill faster, kill more, and can deal with any foot based threat equally, even ZOE Maxes. I can see Falcons and Ravens being used at longer ranges, but in a medium ranged environment like a large room, slugs simply offer more versatility.
Suggesting fractures are even remotely at a disadvantage when facing infantry/maxes. There is only one thing thing that reliably slaughters my max weather I'm sporting ZOE or not and that is fractures. Fractures seem to be the sleeper OP max weapons that every one forgot when screaming for ZOE nerfs. Don't get me wrong ZOE needs to be completely re worked but fractures are the goto anti everything weapon and the only thing that I genuinely avoid in my max because unless you open fire first and get at least half a second advantage on them they will wreck any VS max. Not sure what the NC view on them is, perhaps if a frac max strays into the 0-10m death box of an NC max its a different story but if a frac max engages me at any range beyond point blank its game over. Their damage output is too high and too reliable, hell it even has quite a large margin for error considering the mag size.
Thing is, why would anyone bother using pounders, when they have fractures? Fractures hit more reliably, virtually no deadzone, faster velocity, and much less drop. The Pounders technically have better burst damage, but that only really matters vs vehicles at very short ranges, which you are usually dead anyways. These weapons are supposed to be sidegrades, the fracture is nearly a direct upgrade. I'm not saying nerf the fracture, I'm saying buff the pounder, first by fixing it's convergence issues.
did you do all these tests with maxes standing still and ZOE's being un-able to simply turn off the ZOE feature so they wouldnt take extra damage? Pardon me if I have you totally wrong, but this seems like a biased and agenda driven post rather than something trying to solve a real problem...
I assure you I've tried to make the pounders work. The stats are not really a part of why they are bad weapons, because the main reason is simply that they do not go where the crosshair is. They have an arc, significant drop, and they actually cross over each other which means they only hit the crosshair at a certain distance away. If they are too close you have to aim left/right of them to hit, which obviously is a bad idea if you're firing from both arms. Also bear in mind it's actually quite a lot harder to hit a really fast max than it is to hit a moderately slow max. Our maxes are not really fast maxes If this problem with ZOE maxes and dual comets does not exist, then why are there so many zoe comet maxes in every base that anyone is fighting against, killing infantry and vehicles alike? Maybe there's a secret base full of deployed TR maxes killing things that we haven't found
Very interesting. Good data. I think the Falcon video needs redoing. A fight where you have a massive advantage with no straight up MAX on MAX fights is not really representative of the point you are trying to make. I don't think the Falcons are as effective as you make them out to be. Purely on stats it is pretty good however when facing things like a ZOE those stats get problematic because of how hard it is to hit a ZOE MAX. This of course is a training problem I suppose but it brings me to the next point. The Comets are easy to use. Falcons are not. This is exacerbated by ZOE, which take the comet from a 2 volley infantry kill to a 1 volley infantry kill. This makes the Comet significantly more viable against infantry AND MAXs while at the same time allowing for more leeway for less skilled players. The Falcons need both inate and trained skill as well as acclimation to its eccentricities to be merely functional against infantry while the Comet remains viable even if your aim is a bit off. Ultimately I don't think you re correct in the Comet punishing misses anywhere near as much as the Falcon does. From a stat perspective you could say that a single miss costs 875 (+splash) for a Falcon while a Comet only loses 475 (+splash). That of course is 950 if it misses with 2 but that also means that it hit with 950. This is made even worse when you consider that the Comet has the same splash as the falcon (80) which means that the final number becomes 955 to 1110. If you are not concerned with hitting anything the 2 weapons have an identical fire rate. But as you say yourself the Falcon user has to aim twice while the Comet only really has to do it once (The Falcon has to adjust both for movement and for his crosshair effectively being in another place). This means again that not only does the Falcon get punished harder for a miss. It also requires more time to fire. Ultimately this means that the Comet can kill more than twice the number of infantry than the Falcon can in the same amount of time AND the comet can deal significantly more damage to enemy MAXes as well. All these things are just exacerbated by ZOE. And this is sort of the crux of the matter. Comets are functional and easy to use against infantry while remaining the most powerful anti-MAX MAX weapons in the game. Falcons on the other hand are hard to use while still dealing less damage to both infantry and MAXes. Unfortunately if the Falcons were buffed with more damage to match the Comets they would start one-shotting infantry. So I suppose my point is that you are right that Falcons are effective tools against MAXes but they just pall in comparison to the Comets both against infantry and MAXes.
Pounders are 2.5 seconds, just verified again with a stopwatch. No idea how you get 3 seconds The magdump is not the moment it leaves the barrel but when it hits from about midrange. Also.. there IS a headshot multiplier on the AV weapons, had to revise my numbers when i realized it using pounders.
Agreed, i need a much better video comparison, i didn't get comet gameplay in, and i need lockdown and aegis gameplay too, i tried to get some decent gameplay but just couldn't get a fight going, battles ended as i spawned max etc. Ressources etc..That's why i ended the OP with that i was working on that. I think when you see the video comparisons with proper high action gameplay using each, instead of some random rushed best at short notice gameplay, you might see on the falcons and pounder a bit differently. I appreciate the feedback.
Pounders are 250 certs to get started, while Fractures are 2000 certs for a dual setup. That's probably the best reason to spec for Pounders - if you can get along using just your Pounders for AV work, you'll be able to start speccing into your armour slots and cooldown a lot faster, giving you much more MAX uptime time than if you had to first scrape together the 2k for fractures. Granted I've not tried running dual Pounders in a live battle and don't even own Fractures, but I'd probably pick up the additional Pounder in a heartbeat if they fixed the convergence and drop to something a bit more predictable. It's just too much of a hazzle trying to time bullet drop, convergence and target movement at the same time using a pretty awful crosshair compared to just hosing people with chainguns or running a HA or Engy for AV work.
Tested with the pounders and while you can headshot, they don't appear to do any more damage with a headshot. Worth noting that it's almost impossible to headshot someone in VR standing perfectly still because if you are within 10 metres they don't actually hit the infantry at all.
Try on a max, and then try single fire with 1 arm on infantry. You shouldn't dual volley inside the deadzone anyways.
Additionally: In terms of sustained damage, the ROF still plays a part even for weapons with only one shot per magazine, as the time "between shots" must pass before reloading can begin. In essence the game only checks whether reload is necessary after the time between shots as established by the ROF has passed. It's a little-known fact, but you can check for it pretty easily by comparing low and high ROF weapons: shoot the last bullet in magazine and measure the time before the reloading circle shows up on UI. Because Falcon has a ROF value of 300, it will start the reload after 60/300 = 0.2 seconds. While 0.2 seconds isn't much, it can easily be observed. Trying the same with for example GD-7F the amount of time before reload circle is much less (0.071 seconds) while Ravens take a longass time with 48 ROF (1.25 seconds). Of course this won't change the TTK for weapons unless a reload is necessary.
Without documented muzzle velocity, and stated engagement range, the only meaningful use of the phrase "mag dump" is ... when the magazine is empty. If you are engaging at a range where muzzle velocity is a significant factor, why are you using Falcon/Pounder? This is of course presuming you are not fighting a ZOE, where muzzle velocity matters regardless of range. Muzzle velocity has an enormous impact on the ability to hit a moving target. If you don't include it in your reference material, don't ask for it to be included in feedback on your analysis.
Shouldn't any of the AV max weapons 2-shot someone with headshots, if they do 475 or around that each? They don't, you can't two-shot infantry with headshots as far I can tell, perhaps I'm just not hitting right though. Anyhow, please explain why we should not be able to dual fire inside a deadzone when you don't have the same deadzone as us? I've made a 20 second long video on why the comet is much easier and more effective against infantry than the pounder. It doesn't have any stats, or maths, or anything, just some common sense. Enjoy, terrans! Oh, assuming that they have the same convergence on the crosshair, this means that the comet projectile is actually a lot larger than the pounder projectile. Perhaps another reason why it's easier to hit with!
Fact is comets are easy to use, and the benefit from zoe is obviously great for when you are fighting other maxes. Fractures are somewhat in a similar of a position as comets. In that it is easy to use and does great against infantry and wonderful against other maxes. Falcons are just ****. I have tried the falcon twice in serious point defence fights and it is a WASTE to ever use in the ranges that it would matter. Mattocks with slugs are more versatile because of the long time spent reloading and the fact that for a majority of the time you are relied on to kill INFANTRY not other maxes. If you can ever reliably hit something moving with the falcons the target is likely to be too close to you to dodge the obvious missile path (whereas you might just aswell use the shotguns that come standard with the max because the target is likely not alone). You don't get to assume that people don't pull falcons because they are secretly good. They have **** traits for what you want to use them for (long reload timers and slow velocity) which in turn makes them crap. End of discussion.
They have faster velocity (120 m/sec) than pounders (100 m/sec) and non zoe comets (90 m/sec)... So there goes your slow velocity idea. You've tried them twice in serious point defence and conclude that they are useless.. Pulling mattock slugs instead is precisely the mentality that causes them not to be used. And why people do not practice enough to be effective with them imo. VS uses their comets, TR uses their fractures, they should use their pounders instead but atleast they use them for MAX killer, and NC insist NOT using falcons and use AI weapons instead and get clobbered by comet/fracture maxes. It is sad because it creates a sentiment that these weapons are useless. Which causes even more people to not use them. Falcons do massive damage and are great fun to use aswell. And can be used successfully over range. They require some practice they're not easy to use like comets but that's because they do so much damage, same deal with pounders, pounders gets options for both sustained fire and burst for its deadzone.. falcons gets insane damage. I'm trying to encourage people to use pounders and falcons with this thread. If you don't want to use it that's fine, but stop trying to promote that old sentiment.
If you look at this thread as a way to trick TR into using almost useless weapons (Pounders), it makes a whole lot more sense..
