This thread will cover The MAX killer weapons available to the MAX unit. These are as follows: Falcon (NC), Pounder (TR), Comet (VS) These 3 weapons are MAX killer weapons, not just AV. The three weapons dedicated to longrange AV are Fractures/Ravens/Vortex. Fractures CAN be used for MAX killer and Ravens somewhat aswell, but less and far less reliably than than pounders, where Vortex feasibly cannot which is why fractures and ravens are getting an AI damage balance pass IIRC. All 3 AI maxes are extremely vulnerable to falcon/pounder/comet. Currently Pounder and Falcons are used very little. This skews statistics and makes it look like pounders and falcons are not viable, and comets are overpowered. This as i will demonstrate is not the case. In this guide i will demonstrate how to succesfully use falcons and pounders vs infantry and MAX units. This guide will include video gameplay but let's start with the stats to deal with some of the claims about pounders and falcons that causes people to not use them, primarily the one that they are too hard to hit anything with. I've spent a lot of time with stopwatches etc. and testing the various maxes. And come up with the following information: Falcons: 2 x 875 damage, 120 m/s velocity, Reload 2.1/2.1, Indirect/splash damage 80/0.5m 300 rpm. Mag dump: 1725 damage Consecutive hits required: 1*-2 consequtive hits. Time to execute Magdump: 1.2 seconds (firing 1 arm at a time), 0.6 dual volley. One volley: 1725 damage. TTK infantry (requires full mag): Deadzone: (Aim correct both arms assuming veteran speed 0.8 (stopwatch) seconds to aim correct both arms) 1 infantry 0.8 seconds. 2 infantry 3.7 seconds. 3 infantry 6.6 seconds. 4 infantry normal: 9.5 seconds. Outside deadzone (dual volley assuming 0.6 seconds to aim) 1 Infantry 0.6 seconds. 2 infantry 3.3 seconds. 3 infantry 6 seconds. 4 infantry 8.7 seconds. TTK max: Regular full health MAX (2½ volley): 5.4 seconds. TTK against ZOE max: (1½ volley) 3.3-3.7 seconds. ZOE maxes are again very quickly dispatched by falcon maxes. Pounders 8 x 425 damage , 100 m/s velocity. Reload 2/1.75s, Reload lockdown 2/1s Indirect/splash damage 80/0.5m, rpm 80. Deadzone for dual volley: approximately 18 meters Magdump: 3400 damage. Requires 4-8 consequtive hits. Time to execute Magdump: 2.5 seconds, Lockdown 1.8 seconds. One volley: 850 damage. Time between volleys: 0.625s, lockdown 0.45s. Pounder mode means firing each arm in a left right fashion aka pounding. Imagine a boxer doing left right body hits. TTK infantry (requires half mag (4 shots), 3 shots if too the head.. You will often in live play aswell kill with 1 volley to the head if they are slightly damaged/shield is not full.. this ttk is going with 4 shots on a full health): 1 infantry normal: 1.2 seconds, 1.5 pounder mode assuming veterain speed to aim correct. 2 infantry normal: 2.5 seconds, 3 seconds pounder. 3 infantry normal: 5.8 seconds, 6.5 pounder. 4 infantry normal: 7 seconds, 8 seconds pounder. lockdown (1/1s reload): 1 Infantry 0.9 seconds, 1.1 pounder mode assuming veterain speed to aim correct both arms. 2 infantry 1.8 seconds, 2.2 pounder. 3 infantry: 3.7 seconds, 4.3 pounder. 4 infantry: 4.15 seconds, 5.4 pounder. TTK normal max: Regular full health MAX: Upper torso/headshots 10 rounds (5 of each arm) 4.6 seconds: Normal body: 12 rounds (6 of each arm) 5.8 seconds. TTK MAX using Lockdown: upper torso (5 rounds of each arm). 3.6 seconds Normal body (6 rounds of each arm). 3.7 seconds. TTK ZOE MAX Upper torso/headshot 6 shots, 3 shots with each arm. 1.8 seconds. BOdy shots: (8 shots 4 with each arm) 2.5 seconds. TTK ZOE MAX using lockdown: Upper torso/headshot: 6 shots, 3 shots with each arm. 1.35 seconds Body shots: (8 shots 4 with each arm) - 1.8 seconds. As you can tell a lockdown pounder Max can kill a zoe max in 1.8 seconds. or 1.35 seconds if you nail 3 consequtive dual volley headshots. If you manage to lockdown in the distance, or lockdown behind him before he notices you is the best way to do this. Holding chokepoints with flack on is also very nice if they come storming you can dispatch them extremely quickly. Comets: 4 x 475 damage, 90 m/sec velocity, Reload 1.75/1.5s, Indirect/splash damage, 120 rpm. Deadzone 1 meter. Magdump: 1900 damage. Consecutive hits required: 2-4 Time to execute magdump: 0.9 seconds. One volley: 925 damage. TTK Infantry: 0.9 seconds. Time between volleys: 0.45 seconds. TTK infantry (2 volleys - full mag): 1 Infantry: 0.8 seconds. 2 infantry: 3.35 seconds. 3 infantry 5.9 seconds. 4 infantry 8.45 seconds. TTK Infantry ZOE (1 volley half mag, Practically tends to be 2 volleys - 1/½ volley 90% of the time, but going here with 1 volley.) 1 Infantry 0.4 seconds. 2 infantry 0.8 seconds. 3 infantry 2.95 seconds. 4 infantry 3.35 seconds. NOTE the zoe is extremely vulnerable to dumbfire/pounders/falcons whilst in ZOE mode (about half normal ttk, and is in red after hit by dumbfire). TTK max: (5 volleys - 2½ mag) Regular full health MAX: 5.9 seconds. AEGIS max: Untested/about 4 volleys i'd reckon to drain the shield + so guestimate would be 5.59 + 8.45 = 11.8s TTK USING ZOE (4 volleys 2 mag) 3.35 seconds. AEGIS max: Untested/about 4 volleys i'd reckon to drain the shield + so guestimate would be 3.35-5.5 + 8.45 = 11.8s
Usability in the field: Falcons: (Live gameplay) Falcons have the highest damage potential of the three but gets only 1 round per arm. And a deadzone and convergence to balance it out. It is capable of one volleying heavies (1-1.5 seconds). and 2½ volleying a full health max: (about 6 seconds) The falcons are straight up the baws and can do both close combat and hit and runs, and should be approached with caution or done hit and runs on. Capable of taking out even maxes being repaired due to the devastating amount of damage per volley. Due to convergence and drop to balance out its immense damage potential, it requires firing 1 arm with aim correction at a time in close sequence for most of the engagements. Dual volley is mostly not an option with falcons if you want consistancy. But that is a small price to pay for the immense damage it can wield. Pounders: (Live gameplay 1) and (2) Pounders are the inbetweenie of the comets and the falcons. slightly Less damage than comets per missile, twice the rounds per mag of comets to put its damage potential between comets and falcons. It gets less convergence issues and can be used quite succesfully at dual volley outside its deadzone. Its deadzone is actually a strength since it allows you to fire around friendlies standing right in front of you and still nail the target. And with aim correction the pounding effect is very viable close range. It is the most versatile because its ability to rapid fire many shots 1 arm at a time in a left right left right pounding fashion and combinations of these before reloading. Allows it a lot of damage potential and engagement options. Comets: The comets are the lower damage potential hit and run longer range style variety, sporting no deadzone and the lowest muzzle velocity (without zoe, a comet zoe is extremely vulnerable to pounders and falcons) meaning it is the easiest to dodge of the three. Comets are used for kiting for the most part, whilst the other two are more capable of getting into mid/close combat aswell. Comets are by far also the most boring AV option to use because they offer no versatility. Comet maxes should avoid getting close to pounder/falcon maxes and should try approaching from long range as possible. Comets are the best for dual volleying. And do not benefit much from left right fire because of its reduced damage potential. Missing with comets is punished severely when fighting pounder/falcon maxes. ZOE comet maxes are extremely quick at killing infantry, but must be very careful of the other max killers and really need to stay at range due to its extreme vulnerability that literally halves the TTK on it. When it switches ZOE off it has about the same TTK as pounder and falcon. Albeit slightly slower. ZOE Comet max vs the other max killers, A comparison: Let's compare the TTK against zoe maxes with the TTK of zoe against the other two maxes: 1st place: Lockdown Pounder comes in first place with 1.6 seconds ttk with 3 consequtive dual volley headshots with pounders on a zoe max, and 1.8 seconds with 4 body shots. Second place: Is ALSO pounders, with a 2.5 second kill time and 4 hits with dual volley (a magdump) On a ZOE max, or 1.8 seconds with 3 volleys in the head. Even when outfitting charge the pounder max STILL has a faster ttk against the ZOE max than the ZOE max has on the TR max. Third place is ZOE max with 3.35 seconds max kill on the other maxes and 4 (headshot)-5 (body shot) volleys. Fourth place is Falcon with 3.7 seconds who benefits from AEGIS whilst using falcons in between reloads. This combination fits perfect with the 2.1 second reload time. And evens out its slower ttk on ZOE maxes. In Practicality the Falcon only has to hit with 2 missiles for the ZOE max to be nearly in the red, allowing NC maxes to pop out from behind a crate and literally faceroll a ZOE who ventures too close, which makes it necessary for the ZOE max to stay at range and ads, especially against falcons. With AEGIS which i haven't tested yet i estimate fully certed aegis to take 4 volleys. Before the shield goes down, and then 4-5 volleys on the max itself. Which results in the ZOE ttk of 3.35 + 8.45 = 11.8s Final analysis: Needless to say weither it takes 3 or 4 volleys to take down the AEGIS. Falcon AEGIS definately is comet ZOE's greatest nemesis. Lockdowns 1.35-1.8 second ttk against a ZOE max, is extremely fast but has more vulnerability against ZOE being stationary. Since ZOE Comet are terrific at longer ranges, as it needs to be. As you can see the maxes are not so imbalanced as is the general consensus, and have very similar ttk. It is also worth noting that as you clearly can tell by now, comets themselves are in a pretty decent spot and quite balanced. And that the Non ZOE vs comet max is aswell. Now get out there and use your pounders and falcons against maxes like you are supposed to! Instead of complaining about the comets. I'll make a live gameplay comparison of all the AV weapons in another thread i think, or perhaps in this one at a later time.
Pounders are rarely used not because of their damage (which is great) but because of the unpredictable arc, irritating deadzone, etc. While Fractures are indeed the long-range AV solution, they can be used with ease in close quarters too, and I predict people just prefer that over just having huge damage in close range pounders offer. Nonetheless, this is some excellent data, thank you for that. I think I'll spare 250 certs for the second pounder to play around with it a bit... and amuse people around me.
How often has a lockdown pounder MAX gotten 3 consequtive dual volley headshots against a ZOE MAX in live play? Also, being able to land shots with falcons is something of a sweet science as well whereas comets pretty much go to where you direct them.
Yep. Here's the on paper vs. in practice reality. Pounders suck, Falcons suck, Comets are overpowered. Dual comet costs 250 certs and can be used as AI while TR/NC have to pay 2k for good AI set up. Vortex is INSANE against armor(particularly at long ranges relative to comets) though so amusingly enough VS still has a reason to use both their AV MAX weapons. Comets vs. infantry and enemy MAXes, Vortex for shredding armor.
Falcons have a higher missile velocity than pounders (non lockdown pounders anyways). And it can be done not that difficultly with pounders without lockdown. When you get used to pounders and falcons it actually happens quite often. ZOE maxes have gotten a significant side strafe penalty and have a hard time circling, and mostly they are running forward when you encounter them, and often start running facing away when you get the initial shots in. When they switch from one side to the other they stall for about a second (inaccurate, have to test). But the small amount people actually use falcons and pounders at the moment. I would say not often for that precise reason alone.
Amazing.. i make a full thread including video of pounders and you insist that pounders suck and that comets and vortex are better than pounders/fractures. It feels almost like you are so used to saying it everytime pounders get brought up that you forget to read what people say. It's hard to deal with people who don't even agree with the facts when presented with them.
I never understood why the forums cried rivers about the Fractures but never mentioned the Comets. Apparently, having to land four rockets, two clicks with both arms, but killing someone with two hits, one click, is completely fine? How does that work? The Comets are also insanely powerful against armour. Anyway, the pounders are very difficult to use in the real world because they have very limited range and the arcing makes them hard to aim. The convergence makes them rather useless as well. The only time they are decently useful is if you can lock down and spam a doorway. But most people will go chainguns because they are more versatile. I wonder if anybody has ever managed to kill a tank with pounders...
Where are the videos of Falcons/Pounders? There are videos of Mattiace owning people with the Comet, but I can't find anything close with the other two.
Protip watch the live gameplay i posted, part 2 has more action. I can make muuch better footage for falcon and pounder but this is some rushed footage that atleast shows what is necessary for this post. I'm sick and tired of hearing people say they can't hit anything with pounders and falcons because of deadzone and convergence, when it's not even difficult to adjust for it. Well.. It does take a bit of practice and is fun to master, but it's not some sort of monumental challenge of epic proportions. I post a 2 page OP with statistics that show that pounders and falcons are awesome, then i link gameplay using them. And the first 3-4 replies are saying that pounders and falcons are impossible to hit anything with.. *flips table* Don't you people read any post you participate in or do you just flood it with your personal bias?
lol falcons have fun hitting anything, slow reload for 1 shot/mag and dead zone at close andlong range (only crossing at mid)
I don't recall seeing you going up against any ZOE MAXs with comets in your videos. The one time I saw one that had a comet on one arm and some AI weapon on the other it nearly killed you before you made it to the safety of a shield and I don't think it was even a ZOE. I don't think pounders or falcons suck by any stretch of the imagination but between the three of your characters, you have the highest KPH with your comets and the least with your falcons and I believe that is because comets are superior when it comes to killing.
I agree i should get some better gameplay, i can assure you i do quite well against ZOE maxes and was rusty in those videos, i should get some where i've been running pounders for 1 hours before i record so i'm really heated up. That mix wield comet/quazar max that was tearing through my kinetic in the part 1 pounder video me make me laugh so hard too, because i kept missing him just everso slightly (was still warming up) and he was just running straight hitting everything I usually dispatch those very very swiftly.
Kudos for making a constructive post, without all of the grotesquely egotistical and patronising "l2p" nonsense of your previous thread on the same topic. Interesting that in all 3 videos, you use charge, despite your analysis being based around empire specific abilities. I would suggest that the Comet's ease of use (especially against infantry), as well as the ZOE's enhanced mobility providing easy peakaboo/disengage potential still makes ZOE Comet completely outclass Lockdown Pounder/Aegis Falcon. Still struggling for an incentive to use Pounders over Fractures (until they nerf Fracs that is)
Gonna have to agree with the few that have already said it. This is the "on paper" stats and controlled experiments. The problem is the battlefield is not controlled and what seems "balanced" on paper ends up getting thrown out the window. (The gameplay vids are still controlled after all) Convergence issues are huge with both. In the case of the Falcon, yes, it's strong, but having to reload after every shot doesn't give it much staying power. AEGIS is not the remedy for that. Pounders do have great damage. But unpredictable fire and range issues make fractures the all round goto. You added your personal bias in your OPs. You focused quite a bit on ZOE (the nerf is coming), you also are trying to build up weapons which aren't much in use due to their inherently limiting nature whereas the other AV weapons are much more flexible to use in general (Fractures & Ravens). Finally: Calling the weapons analyzed "MAX Killer Weapons" is purely your opinion from the get go. Your stats are interesting, and YOUR final analysis of them, outside of factual data (based on dmg, reload, etc), is based on your view of how gameplay should function. It's not necessarily their intended function nor is it their final "balanced" function as we can assume there are still bugs in the works that need tweaking (the convergence issues).
I love the falcon gameplay vid. People coming at him 1 at a time 15m away in a base they clearly overwhelm. Protip, cqb in a 20m² room is not one of NC maxes problems and almost anything else in their arsenal is better then falcons in that situation.
Still trying to find decent falcon gameplay, damn battles keep ending everytime i pulled my falcon max. I know it's not good, it would probaby have been better to shoot at dummies in the VR to illustrate overcoming the deadzone and convergence. But it's the best i could do at short notice. As i said in end of OP i will post another thread with a more indepth video comparison featuring AEGIS falcon and Lockdown Pounder gameplay aswell. This was primarily of the statistics. The pounder footage is clearly a little better to illustrate but not optimal either.
Nope, Falcon description says it is an Anti Max weapon, and having access to/having used all of them in the field i can clearly tell that this is their intended feature. That's why fractures/ravens/vortex suck at killing maxes and infantry comparatively because they're meant more for AV. Well perhaps less so fractures but that's why they're getting a balance pass on infantry.
