(from looking up your outfit...) Oh look - another BR20 who DOES NOT FLY AT ALL that just loooves that they are destroying the flight mechanics for the game. What exactly entitles you to even have an opinion on this issue - much less one worth listening to? Perhaps the stats just aren't updated in my search. That can happen. If so that's my bad. Feel free to post your actual character page to shut me up - but I won't be holding my breath expecting this to be the opinion of someone who is actually an experienced pilot. -Stigma
Post you player stats page and we can evaluate if that statement is something more than hot air... -Stigma
Every pilot worth their salt has already done so. Yes you can still do a reverse - you just do it at 25% of normal speed, which is pitiful. Even a mediocre pilot won't have any issue landing a majority if not all his shots at a target moving at that snails pace. The whole point of the reverse is that it is a maneuver which allows you to do defensive dodging while being able to shoot back. If the defensive element of that is all but removed then it turns into a TTK-war (where the player with the initiative will always win out regardless of the skill-level of the player on the defensive). The question is - why on earth would you want to purposefully LOWER the skill-ceiling in the game? Most gamedevs try their best to find ways to raise the skill ceiling - and for good reasons. Without a high skill ceiling there is literally no room for skilled play and nothing to strive for. By all means, a low skill-floor can be good so new players aren't totally useless until they learn to get better through practice, but the ceiling and floor are not the same thing, and every pilot worth their salt can tell you that every extra ESF you have to deal with in a dogfight stacks the odds against you quite rapidly even if the side with the most pilots have the least experience so the skill-floor is already fairly low (and that's not even taking into account the A2A missiles which require nearly no flying skill at all to use and be highly effective with). -Stigma
I think people are following a disturbing trend here. They're assuming that the reverse maneuver is insanely difficult to learn. I was teaching a new pilot in my outfit and he mentioned that he had accidentally done the reverse a few times in the 2 hours he had spent flying in-game. It's not a terribly difficult maneuver to learn. It takes a while to really master the reverse and do it at-will, but realistically, to learn it is to watch two youtube videos and spend 20 minutes in the VR with your keybinds and an ESF. What that means: It means that lowering the efficiency of the reverse maneuver does not "lower the skill-ceiling" of air. In my (humble and honest) opinion, it raises the skill ceiling. It does that because it does NOT take an ace pilot to do a reverse maneuver. Sure, ace pilots know it and use it more effectively than most, but even new pilots can easily learn to utilize the reverse in a dogfight. By lowering the impact the reverse maneuver gives to any pilot who knows how to do one (we established, it's not terribly difficult), you effectively place more importance on the other aspects of air that true aces can be really good at. Getting guns on target fast, getting into the right position, using cover like trees, rocks, cliffs to their advantage, and sustained accurate fire. The stuff real aces are made of. By lowering the impact of the reverse maneuver, SOE (in my opinion) is giving air a higher skill-ceiling. This will sort out the "guys who just learned the reverse" from the "guys who know how to use it when they should". The latter being the true aces of the game. Bear in mind, the reverse still WORKS (and is actually easier to engage now)...it's just less effective at blasting you around at warp speed. When pilots rely almost solely on the reverse maneuver to win a dogfight, it's not a maneuver that "only aces can know". Ace pilots should rely on their wit, their guns, their aim, their situational awareness, their allies, and their superior flight skills (not just maneuvers) to win dogfights. TL;DR - The reverse maneuver is not an "ace-only" maneuver. It's not hard to learn. Reducing it's effectiveness gives real aces a chance to prove themselves in ways other than "reverse...kill...rinse, repeat". My advice would be to buck up and be the aces some of you are and utilize all your resources in the game to win dogfights. If you're not an ace, and you rely solely on the reverse maneuver to win dogfights...well, you'll find out faster now. As usual...just my opinion. Could be wrong. EDIT: Also, they're likely going to add a certification line into the afterburners that will increase the vertical thrust gained from them while in hover-mode.
Reduction to afterburner lift factor... ABOUT TIME!! It having the effect as a reverse thrust mechanic has been broken from the get go. Period. Sorry to all the pilots that are whining about this change. But if I have to take a lump over my head with Scout Radar and NOT EVEN being told it was changing before hand, then you too shall get the same lump.
There is no "the" reverse manouver. If I engage you and you do a "youtube-style" classic baby's first reverse at me you will be dead before you fully turn. If that is what you think is all that is being discussed here then you need more airtime. To survive against good pilots you will have to incorporate variations and tricky deviations to the norm based on the same underlying mechanics - (like a staggered expanding reverse corkscrew just to name a very tricky one), or better yet, a variation that works well with a spesific type of cover that you happen to have available. To survive against competent liberator crews (or great solo pilots) you will HAVE TO use variations of strafe-drifting and the like to even have a chance. If you doubt that, come talk to me and I will set you up with a duel vs Justicia on Miller. He will one-shot you until you run out of aerospace resources... and do the piloting and gunning both himself. When I talk to him about the possibility of this change going live the chucked and told me that he couldn't believe that they would go ahead and do something that stupid (he thinks it's such a stupid move that he isn't even taking it seriously at this point). He added that he wouldn't mind more free points though... If you think it is a good idea to reduce the bag of tricks down to not only 1/4'th of the most basic and predicatable form of a reverse - but indeed remove the entire underlying mechanic and skillset for everything else that is based on it... I can't take you seriously anymore. If you think learning "the reverse manouver" is the pinnacle of piloting then you are still a baby that barely learned to crawl - and you are being irretrievably stupid by supporting that we should limit everyone to crawling (slower) because some babies are having problems crawling (and can't even conceive of walking, much less running). Learning to do a basic reverse on demand is like getting your black belt in whatever martial art - not the end of the learning journey but the true start of it. This is lowering the skill-ceiling. There is no way around it - and that is always ALWAYS a bad move to make (and that's why gamedevs typically want to do the exact opposite - without raising the skill-floor too much). -Stigma
Oh look - another guy who doesn't fly at all and thinks that its awesome that they destroy the entire basis for flying. Yes, please, let's listen to people who don't even fly when we are deciding on what to do about an element that primarily affects air-vs-air combat. That makes sense... Oh wait, sorry. you have flown a bit i see - like 200 kills, so almost a whole day huh? Nice. Oh wait... its all rocketpod and A2A missiles. oh wow... just 10% kills from an actual nosegun *facepalm*. Sorry i take it back, you have rested your *** in the pilots seat - but you haven't actually been doing any flying would be a more accurate statement. Sorry but people like this don't get a say in essential core air-to-air balance discussions - because they have never even taken part in it, except maybe as food for some pilot who bothered to practice. The last part of the post is perhaps my favorite... because something you liked got nerfed then someone else should suffer regardless of if it is bad for the game overall? Hey - what do you care about the air-vs-air game right? You don't partake in it anyway so **** those other people doing something you don't like (or couldn't / didn't bother to learn yourself more likely). Talk about misdirected anger. You should be ashamed for being "that kid" that kicks the ball into the thorny bushes when he's done playing with it... -Stigma
oh hey, cool, a arsenal insult - oh wait wrong game. well, you are right. I don't use the EFS that much, I hate dogfight with mouse and keyboard. When I get an esf out I'll do strafing runs or get to a position to drop the squad beacon. I don't like the upwards afterburner in this gameplay because I don't need it. I'm not going to say "you don't need it either", I just say "it fits my gameplay". and its my right to post my opinion on this, because its a feedback thread. maybe the best is when they make a cert thing out of that so ppl can decide how they want their afterburner. ahh, why should I ask like 10% pro ppl what to change, when they say "it's fine" anyway. but in this case they didn't ask anyone. I wasn't complaining. i thing they just looking on the statistics and found - we don't sell enough air stuff, maybe its because there are only 10% of ppl dominating the air.
All this airchav buttmad and salty, tasty tears. I hope they keep the nerf or nerf the ESFs even further just for the ***** of it. This makes me and 9-Ball extremely happy.
Pretty upseting there isn't any buff for the absolute worst pistol in the game (a.k.a. the Cerberus).
They need to make the fuel last 75% longer if they make that change. I was so looking forward to all the new ESF updates but that change just turned it all around. Well guess you can't have it all and there's plenty of other good games out there.
Here is Stigma laying it out for you guys. This is exactly what I have been saying. SOE needs to pay close attention to people who actually have experience flying. They have made something really great whether by accident or not. And changing it would severely dumb down the air game.
Not trying to hate on you, man, but do you realize how arrogant that sounds? You're claiming to know more about a game than the people who built it from the ground up. What we have here are two different types of knowledge. It's safe to say the devs know more than you about the makeup of PS2 and everything in it, but yes, it is probably also a safe assumption that guys like you (if you're the Ace God you claim to be) know more about how to make the most of certain elements within the game. Most engineers, programmers, and high level managers I've met are fairly bright, so I'm sure they'll touch base with certain players if they feel it would serve PS2's best interests.
Just a thought here, but whether or not they nerf the reverse maneuver, won't every one-on-one dogfight tend to be a "circle jerk" anyway? The only difference is that in one you have ESFs chasing each others' tails and in the other you have them simultaneously circle strafing each other. Hell, it would probably be a "circle jerk" even if you decided to mount the nose guns on magical omnidirectional turrets! The reason is simple; both sides (usually) want to keep their weapon on the target while staying mobile to make targeting harder for their opponent.
Hehe, im definatly going to be upvoting something you really dont want to be nerfed... just for the comedy
But thats whats so fun and exciting about dogfighting. You trying to get hits, re-adjusting and constantly trying to aim, while also moveing around and dodging fire. It can be realy tough with some fights lasting minutes (with auto repair mainly) and really exhilarating. That is why we dont want it to change, its too fun
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. When has there ever been a game that radically changed game mechanics and went on to be successful at all? I never played star wars galaxies, but i heard about what happened there. I played DAoC for 10 years, and when TOA came along and radically changed gameplay it hurt the game badly. Already we have had the lattice system implemented, which did not attract any new players, but certainly drove plenty away. Changing flight mechanics will do the same thing. I was just telling my friend the other day that i think reavering is the most fun thing i have ever done in a game. Dark Age had some really fun stuff too, so thats saying a lot. To change something as deep and incredibly enjoyable as ESF flight mechanics would be a complete travesty. The skies are already full of planes. It's not like no one is flying. It's been said already here, but i will reiterate. Dumbing down the game is not good. If getting owned by a better pilot doesnt light a fire under you and make you want to practice more and get better, then maybe this isnt the right game for you. Most of us suffered, at times horribly, learning to fly, and it can still be daunting and aggravating (lock-ons), but the feeling of accomplishment, and the continued need and desire to improve is what keeps me coming back. Every game that has ever been made has had one ultimate element. Challenge. If you changed pong (for those of you who know what pong is) so that the paddles were only slightly less wide than the screen, there would be no challenge, and it would be no fun. If you played Frogger, but it was just a road to cross with no obstacles, no challenge, you would play once and be done. Imagine if Super Mario could fly, and he didnt have to jump over anything. No challenge, no fun. Thats what dumbing down does. If there is nothing to strive for what is the point? This is a FPS game, by its very nature something that should be entirely skill based. If i feel like it doesnt matter how much i practice to get better because any noob can come shoot me down with lock-ons or some other noob device, how long am i going to want to play? Sorry, my point is, please dont mess with da plane.
Well, with all the crying going on I still haven't found one post that could explain how this change ruins air combat for everyone.
After just now watching a experienced pilot I trust, on stream Thoroughly test out the new mechanics for all three faction ESFs both for live and test he concluded from my understanding: He was still against this change but not nearly as much as he was when he first heard about it The manouver is noticeably harder to pull off now but is still very much there It would less of a staple for him if the changes went through but he would still use it when he knows it would still work Using the hover frame pretty much negates the changes entirely He actually found it a bit easier to reverse thrust a Mozzy on the PTS then on live He felt the Scythe felt like easy mode compared to his Reaver when on live
