The two sides to this argument. 1. Veteran pilots who have devoted a ridiculous amount of time into flying in this game, because its fun, unique and rewarding. Who don't want to see it get pulled down into the rest of the mediocre this game specializes in. Who don't understand the change because it really has no merits whatsoever. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. A) "I never fly, but I troll the hell out of these forums and I'll be damned if I don't throw in some punches." B) "I sort of fly, I tried to do the reverse maneuver this one time and it was hard, so I gave up, because its just stupid." C) "I am terrible at flying in this game and I die all of the time, BECAUSE OF REVERSE MANEUVER." D) "I hate the air combat in this game, it should be like --INSERT EVERY COOKIE CUTTER TURNING DOGFIGHT GAME EVER--, the reverse maneuver shouldn't exist because it is not in those games. E) "I'm a half decent pilot, but I'm going to pretend I love these changes because I'm a hipster"
ah this is the real dogfight. if you don't know what's broken i don't tell you what's broken so we, the members of the inner circle are still on top. but i think i found a real good reason in an other tread. dogfight is boring without this move, because if someone is behind you, you can not lose him. this is a real good point i think everyone can understand. so instead of yelling at SOE about the bad flight physics, you praise borin' hovering around, as THE THING to be. its like: "oh hey, do you remember the old time where we need to go barefood on lava, thx to SOE they let us walk on broke glass now" if they implement minimal physics or just controllable thruster there would be far more entertaining. you're don't display the 2 sides in this argument, you're just takin' bad about the pro change side.
I'm not any were on this list. You've made all the options far too narrow which kinda reflects on your mind point. I don't really fly but I understand both sides of the argument and seek out as many open minded sources of information on the topic so I can make a Informed decision. And my decision is such, I'm fine with the change. As it forces the load-out to affect the play style or vice versa more than it does now. If you want to make the most use of the unique hover mechanics of PS2 aircraft you need the hover frame. If you want to fly like a more traditional fighter jet sim you take the dog fighting frame. And if you just want to go fast racer still does that. It reduces the ESF's air versatility promoting specialisation and teamwork.
You are fine with a change that doesn't effect you? Wonderful. Tell me again how people who aren't experienced at flying should have a say in the flight mechanics?
This is an absurd nerf for the NC mostly... if you tail a sythe as a reaver there is a high chance they will end up on ur tail. Head to head with a sythe, good luck killing it before its on ur tail. Fight with a mossie it can just run away and its still more maneuverable. All a reaver has is terrain which everyone else can do. Our rotary as 25 bullets low rate of fire and a slightly higher ttk (only if u hit with every bullet) in air combat you need higher rates of fire and large magazines because u miss alot. So i think in reality the mossie has the highest ttk (if fighting other esf). And to top it all of NC is always outnumbered in the air. The reaver has 1 advantage and everything else bar its AB is good.... removing the reverse maneuver is a massive nerf to NC air.
Both ideas of what you are getting from this are wrong :/ Even with the dogfighting frame for traditional combat the way ESF's are set up there is no such thing as "out turning" in this game. The only way to get someone off of your tail no matter what frame you use is either stop to turn around, or bring more planes. The idea of "team work" to control the air would turn the air game into giant air zergs. Whoever brings more planes wins. Now in a 1v1 situation you could still stop, and turn to face your target. This is how most traditional dogfights in THIS game work. Now that you're facing each other you can do cool turns, and moves to dodge/return fire. If this proposed change takes effect there won't be any cool moves. You'll be locked into a stationary hover fight trying to out aim each other. But back to those air zergs...as the flight mechanics are CURRENTLY being able to perform those awesome moves/turns allows a group of lets say 3 take on a group of 9, and be able to win if they are talented enough. If the change takes effect even if they are more talented the group of 3 will lose. They simply won't have the mobility it takes to fight back. Essentially nerfing their skill. (Also this is REAL teamwork. The communication needed is insane) Tbh the different frames on ESF's while noticeable don't drastically effect a fight. I could run a stock esf and take on some one of equal talent using any frame while still having a great chance at winning. It's the idea of out talent/time/dedication being nerfed that upsets most aces. We're good, because we practiced. Most have flown since beta, and some practiced months to get to where we were at. Some of us have spent well over 1000 hours flying. Most of the people happy with the changes have what? 50 hours in an esf? They expect flying to be easy when honestly...it's not.
So tell me how removing RM is going to make flying any more skill based? Unless you have some fancy trick that defies the current physics of the game.
Mmmm. I dunno. Yes and no. Before Esamir was changes, even slight hills were perfect cover for my Enforcer Modified Vanguard. I'd still creep up and tell everyone to hide their kids and their wife. Hossin will be a new challenge, of course, as there are many wide, lake-like areas. Trees and rocks may provide suitable cover, perhaps. I always look forward to a challenge. The only thing that I am truly disappointed in, is that there is so much negative space on Hossin. The mountainous tops remind me of old N64 games where you ran through a canyon with flat walls. The whole top portion is uneused. We need watchtowers, stairs, goat trails. EVERYTHING. Much like the back-trails near the Ascent on Amerish.
Of course any 1v1 duel is going to be a combination of ideally 2 factors: (1)-aiming and (2)-simultanious dodging. That is how every 1v1 encounter in the game essentially breaks down. Infantry, tanks, you name it. The problem that "traditional" (ie. more realistic jet-like) dogfighting has is that you can't do (1) while doing (2), and thus it turns into a turning battle that can take a very long time. You can put whatever name you want on that - it makes no difference. Its less of an issue in a game like say - war thunder, because that game has a lot of good detail put into somewhat realistic flight physics so you have a lot of factors to work with. In PS2 the flight-model, despite being currently novel and very fun, is very very basic. You don't turn faster or slower based on speed - you can't use gravity to a large extend to gain significant speed - you aren't penalized in speed or acceleration noticably even forflying straihgt up - there isn't any proper stalling, or G-forces ect. In short, if we had to have turning battles that would devolve the majority of fights into holding down your "pitch down" and keeping the wobble to a minimum - then wait for your opponent to make a very very basic mistake. I have to envision that nearly all of such duels would end up being broken by outside influence long before they actually resolved. Of course - all of this is a moot point entirely. These are not jets. They are VTOL hovercraft. The right (and obvious) move to make if someone tries to out-turn you is to STOP in the air and just turn to shoot him. Doing that will give you the advantage. That means that 2 competent pilots fighting eachother will both stop and shoot from relatively stationary positions in the air (given that you can't move with any significant speed anymore while hovering). Fights will essentially just like before, except sloooooow as molasses - and will normally end within the first clip for good pilots because they will be able to land all their ammo on their slow moving targets who can't effectively dodge. That - in a nutshell - is why this is a bad bad change. -Stigma
No, sorry, you may think you "understand both sides of the argument" but you don't. The fact that you think that you just need to slap on hoverframe to fix the issue underlines this fact very clearly. The nerf was specifically to the effectiveness of afterburners in hover-mode (down to 1/4'th of normal). This has nothing to do whatsoever with the hover-chassis which only alters your non-afterburner hover capacity. In short - sorry, but you don't know what you are talking abut - and that probably explains why you think this change is a good idea, because you don't seem like a troll-type that otherwise litter these threads. Your initial understanding is wrong, and the following conclusions you draw from the erroneous start-point are also wrong. I'm not going to harp on that because everyone can make a honest mistake, but it's still wrong. When we ask that you have a minimum of flight experience to comment on this change that mostly affects the air-to-air game it is exactly to prevent this sort of thing - not some vain attempt at being elitist like some people are portraying it here. -Stigma
This isn't about empire balancing. All ESFs are hit equally hard by this. Whichever ESF starts out with the initiative always has a huge advantage. That's not something the reaver lacks (especially not with the vortek in hand) and the reaver isn't being singled out here. This is something all ESF pilots worth their salt should oppose since it will remove all high-end maenuvering in dogfighting. My main is a BR100 vanu mainly scythe pilot (though i play mossies and reavers too extensively). I'd have to be braindead to be ok with this change for some kind of perceived advantage in the empire-balance. People who think that this would significantly impact a spesific ESF more have missed the point. The experienced NC pilots here will back me on this I'm sure, so you don't really need to take my word for it. -Stigma
My Opinions are based on watching Actual videos comparing the changes and talking to my friends and team-mates from my outfit about the change. I have also read as much of the discussions on these forums with a grain of salt in attempt to gain sufficient insight on the matter without wholly believing either side of the argument as to avoid bias. One thing I do know is that the hover frame on the PTS DOES still retain the ability to gain significant thrust from vertical boosting as it is now for all frames on live. For the other frames the manouver is significantly diminished but still workable. It seems to turn you more on the spot from what I have seen instead of the powerful swooping arc I regularly see my Galaxy escorts doing. A big chunk of my decision comes from this: stream in the last 2 hours of it were I brought it to the streamers attention and he went right there and then to test it out with all three ESF's on both live and on public test.
SO now you still circle but instead of both guys getting to shoot at eachother only the better ace whos behind will
I teach people to fly, noobs who have never done it before. I teach them the reverse maneuver and they are able to actually win dogfights with only 5 hours of gameplay.
Here are a few reasons, Now we will be less inclined to fight air units, so more LOLpodding. Second, it is unlike any game out there so why play a game with the same flight mechanics as a game like BF3 while PS2 has a lot more things that shoot you down. Third, many of us have had to practice to use it. We did not just instantly learn the maneuver. Most of us started with kill death ratios around 0.1 - 0.6 and learned how to raise it. Fourth, us aces will still be constantly killing you regardless and not A2G will be unopposed. All ground people in favor of this are signing their own "reasons why you are leaving this game survey" page.
Wow, this is why people say pilots are elitists. I fly a bit, I can do the reverse maneuver, I like the change. Qualified enough for you?
If this goes through to live we pilots should just stop killing each other and just hover spam the ground.
If it goes through every ESF pilot who oppose the change should just start solo flying libs and make life miserable for both the ground and the air by bombing everything.
