Let me Keep my old Saron and make this "new one" a seperate weapon

Actually I really like this idea, Hansgrosse.

200m? really thats nothing - i can hit infantry with the AT tank weapons (pick a tank - any of them is easy) from 400+ meters away easily

"even the primary Mag gun had so little bullet drop"
you do realize that the magrider has the HIGHEST amount of drop out of all the MBT main cannons?

"That aside if you think it's easy to hit a sunderer at over 200m with the primary canon of the vanguard or with a halberd (always compared to the saron)"
yes its easy and i think its even easier than the original saron because of the fire delay - a fire delay is much harder to judge to hit moving targets than a very VERY minor drop on the halberd
with a vanguard main cannon its easy because of the faster travel time and almost zero drop

this "new" saron is a completely different weapon - not anywhere near the same thing i payed SC for

The Saron was changed because it was a little overpowered and functionally very similar to the Halberd.

It was a straight upgrade over the Halberd and as Magrider driver, there was zero reason to take the Halberd over it.

This isn't a good design, the purpose of weapons is to offer variation, not upgrades.

Now, the Saron is a fairly unique weapon, much like the Enforcer changes.

If it's not what you paid for, it's a shame. Sales are final and it's unfortunate if you dislike this weapon, honestly, I'd argue it's really not good service to change a weapon so drastically and not do anything about those who dislike such a drastic change.


But, alas, I'm sure most people are aware at this stage that you're basically funding a beta and a lot can change.

Good luck getting a response from SOE and the GMs regarding an SC refund on this. I've been told point blank that it isn't going to happen. I'm still chasing because I feel the cause is justified, it is a different weapon.

To those TR, NC and even some VS who are dancing the Macarena with delight at this change - good for you. When a lot of VS decide to vote with their wallets and feet and leave the game due to the consistent lack of respect shown to the playerbase, it will be the game that suffers, not us.

So this is what the VS do?Leave? I do not recall any NC or TR leaving when our stuff get modified.We dealt with it and continued playing.And yeah do it like the others earn certs and buy the stuff.This way you don't have to waste you money.

So VS policy is that okay we have a weapon OP or just good.Great!!Now don't you dare to change it or balance it to be better because we will leave.Sorry i understand that some people don't agree with some changes and call it OP or something ,but this this is just a joke.

And check your glossary man fast. Respect means that they give a thing about what you say here.You or we said that something was OP at the TR or NC they changed it.Now We say the Saron is too strong they changed it.Of course you don't like it because you have to live with this.We didn't liked our changes but what can we do,continue playing. They do respect us because they have changed a lot of things we asked.Of course you don't cry about the TR or NC changes you say ohh yeah that's good they needed that.Nobody has a sniping secondary (Enforcer yes from 10-15m than bullet drop not from 100m no bullet drop).

Check this its from GU6:
NC Scattercannon

• Rate of fire slowed down to 180 RPM.
• Projectile speed slowed down to 300 m/s.
• Magazine capacity lowered to 6.

I didn't recall NC yelling "oh my GOD, my money, i am leaving !!!" You have problem with the money??Start earning certs man.Start earning certs.Or leave the game and give room for those who want to enjoy this game.

What part of that update changed the fundamental operation of the weapon? It still fired the same number of projectiles, at a lower capacity and slower. If they had slowed the Saron down (again) and made some other balance tweak then that would be fair enough and I doubt there would be much if any issue. I certainly wouldn't be kicking up a stink about that type of change.

I'm earning certs, I just choose to use them to upgrade my characters, weapons and vehicles. It is my choice to support the game via membership and SC purchases, allowing those who spend nothing to play and enjoy this game. I have no problem with that. However, even if I had bought the weapon with certs, I'd be just as pissed off as its the principle of the change that is the issue - it is an entirely different gun.

Plenty of NC are annoyed by the change to their weapon too (I forget the name) with this update. Plenty of NC and TR (and no doubt VS) have swapped sides when their flavour of the month weapons get balanced. I don't recall a single instance within any update where the basic operation of a weapon has been so drastically, radically, fundamentally changed for ANY faction. Perhaps I'm wrong, but from my recollection there is no precedent for this type of change. What I can't seem to fathom is that there are some people who fail to see the difference between a balance and an out-and-out change.

Leaving is a drastic measure for sure, but certainly pulling the plug on further SC purchases and membership renewal is where SOE will see the impact of their ridiculous decisions.

Sorry to disagree, but it is disrespectful to completely change a weapon style that has been in the game for 6+ months that people chose to buy as that previous weapon style (either with SC or certs), and expect people to be happy with it. If I took my car into a garage to be serviced and I was given back a go-kart, is it reasonable to expect I'd be happy with that? If I bought a Parallax and then SOE decide its not a bolt action anymore, its an automatic, is it reasonable to expect I'd be happy with that? These are not balances, they are fundamental changes. I keep saying fundamental because I cannot stress how important that word is in relation to this issue.

If you've not purchased the Saron with SC or certs, and not spent considerable certs upgrading it, and not spent 6+ months using the weapon as it was advertised and intended (working to strengths and working around weaknesses), then although you are entitled to your opinion you really aren't going to understand how much this change that has been thrust on the VS (and NC I gather) matters. Faction fan boys can rejoice in the tears, but there are plenty of players in other factions who have the sense and impartiality to see this change for what it is; crossing the line.

Give it back. GIVE IT BACK!

Which is why they had to change it, Skill-rewarding weapons are not welcome in PS2 anymore. Next we lose the Bolt-Action sniper rifles.

Nice Idea SOE !
My Idea GU10 -> Refund Button

Ok today i learned that the Vanguard main Canon almost has no bullet drop.....That's why we need several shots to measure distance when firing from over 300m away.....Because it has almost zero drop.....

Silly question since i know the answer but if SOE had kept the same accuracy AND given 6 shots that each delt 1500 damage would you all still whine about "changing" your weapon ? Would you request refunds ?

I don't recall a single instance within any update where the basic operation of a weapon has been so drastically, radically, fundamentally changed for ANY faction.

Listen i do not doubt this and i am not the "nerf VS to 0 type" but believe it or not the Saron is still an AT weapon.Its meant to be an AT weapon.So its basic operation is not changed.Also slower Rof means less DMG.(20dmg /3 sec or 8dmg /1sec)So you have 3 seconds and you can fire one 20 dmg shot or three 8dmg shot(3x8=24)
The AI killing thing was just a by product.And you still can kill AI ,you just need one or two more shots.

So, i've done some more testing. I'd invite people to retest this, as there's certainly room for inaccuracies.

Scenario:
I was firing on the front armour of a prowler from around 110m in VR. I used the new saron with 2x optics and tried to kill the prowler as fast as I could while retaining 100% accuracy. This naturally required tapfire and i tried chaining the shots as fast as thought i could. This is where some people may perform better, and i'd like to know if you manage to do so.

Results:
I recorded the whole thing (no upload bandwidth tho) and the it took 32s to kill the prowler. I fired 28 times and 27 times in total.
It took five magazines to kill the prowler. This means four reloads, totaling 12s. This leaves 17s for the 27 shots I fired, and thus an average time of 0.714s per shot. Depending on whether the COF reset triggers after or before the mandatory refire delay, this is either as close to perfect as it gets (0.2 refire + 0.5 cof reset = .7s), or slightly suboptimal (.5 cof reset). Regardless, I didn't feel I could have fired any faster without missing shot, and if I had been farther away I would have missed more shots as there mostly wasn't perfect accuracy.

Analysis:
The conditions of this test were optimal. Neither the prowler nor the magrider were moving, and the target was only a very short distance away. Yet, it took the new saron 32 seconds to kill the target under these conditions. The old saron would have killed the prowler in about 23 seconds.

Combine the increase in TTK and STKs with the fact that drivers now have to stay stationary longer, and I don't think that there are any compelling aspects to the new gun at all. I still want the old saron back, as i wouldn't like to trade the alpha for longer exposure (less strafing) under any circumstances, really, but this shows that the new saron definitely needs fixing as well.

Note: I had to test twice because i accidentally had max reload equipped the first time around. The mentioned 17s (obviously) for 27 shots is NOT correct. It's 20s for 28 shots (32s-12s = 20 shots; 28 shots fired, 27 hits). The resulting refire time was correct with .714 though. I'll redo this whole thing later for higher accuracy.

After almost a year of occasion lurking It's finally this far to respond in a thread.

So in comparison to the old formula, the VS had an anti tank weapon for the gunner on a main battle tank that did the least damage of all three factions? also had a "delay" added to it because it was still "not balanced?" And now it has changed completely to this new formula where it is not an actual anti tank weapon anymore but more of an hybrid Anti Personell/Anti Tank weapon? with more of its characteristics leaning towards anti personnel?

i've been a Magrider gunner for over 7 months now. In my time I have come across a lot of situations where in my experience I would have been able to say "oh thats not very balanced is it?" For example, if you come close to a TR prowler that knows what he's doing (imho, after 15 minutes of VR you can attain this "level") then you can rip anything to shreds that comes closes. Be it a Vanguard, magrider or sticky c4 troops. So it was always a gamble for my driver and me to get in close on a prowler. Especially the ones in anchor mode proved a real challenge even after 5 months of Magridering. Thus my driver and I always kept our distance from these beasts and shoot them from farther away. After 3 months of intensive gunning and driving my driver was pretty pro and guessing distances and aligning his main gun accordingly. After a while, we were able to keep moving and shooting at the same time while still hitting the enemy For me it has been become second nature to move and shoot the Saron-hrb at the same time. Thus, the way to engage a TR tank effectively, one must keep his distance.

Engaging the vanguards is a different story altogether. My driver and I would take different approaches. Even though our preference was to get in close to support the infantry we stayed at our distance most of the time because of the big chance, we would get ripped apart by the enforcer, main gun or the magic blue shield that would appear from time to time denying us shots. Even though we have mobility, my driver ALWAYS has to align his complete tank to the enemy to be able to shoot him, where the other 2 factions can turn around their guns without having to move the tank and compromising weak spots like the sides or the back.

But now, all of the above has changed with the new patch. The only "edge" magriders used to have in tank combat was in the Saron HRB and that has been completely changed to something utterly useless in tank combat (not talking about anti infantry combat here). If you want to keep your distance, you will have to time your shots as a gunner and even then if you hit tank, it doesnt even do 30% of the original damage. You can't possible pass this weapon off as a viable choice for an Anti tank weapon anymore.

I don't know what motivation were to make for these changes on the magrider's Saron HRB, but they don't seem to be resting on fundaments of logic and balance. As the statistics point out that the magrider had the worst offensive statistics of all three tanks combined together you can't say this has made for "better balance" along all three factions. And i'm not even talking about the ingame purchase that promised me something else than this gun....

I encourage the constant wish for balance, the ongoing process of trying to reach it and that some things do have to change in order to attain to that certain level of balance. But as it is for now, the magrider has become the worst choice in engaging tanks on the battlefield and this has only skewed the scales more in favor of certain sides instead of "balancing" them out. I can only hope that this decision will be turned around for a better balance.

Well said Nickb

This change to the Saron is beyond stupid... they want a magrider to go into close range to other tanks with this gun? Well then i guess it is time for a damage and velocity increase to the drivers gun. Or a shield ability with our magburner.

Hopefully we get the old Saron back.... although it is more likely not to happen...

Bump. I refuse to let this thread die a death. I am not letting go of this one.

Nobody is complaining the saron was nerfed. We are complaining it has been fundamentally changed. If SOE wanted to balance the saron to make it harder to kill infantry then just the nerf to splash would have done it.

Reduced effectiveness of AoE sense it can be spammed against infantry more

• Inner blast damage decreased from 750 to 350
• Inner blast radius decreased from 1 meter to 0.5 meters
• Outer blast radius decreased from 3 meters to 2 meters

This is not the same gun that people have spent certs and/or sc in getting. Bring back the old saron with the delay and just set the splash to be the same as the current. This will reward skillful players who can snipe those 5 pixels that represent infantry at >200m and be a counter for the sometimes overpowering a/v infantry options.

I agree with the need for constant balancing in any MMO but the way this particular change was done seemed purposely secretive. When you change a feature/weapon this much you first apply the potential change to a test server. When I read the patch notes, I went over to PTS while the update was being applied and noticed the Saron was the same as before the patch. It just seems underhanded.

Taking off the tin foil hat, I'll adapt my tactics with the mag and move on but overall it's still disappointing. I too would rather they left it alone or at least continued to make incremental changes for the sake of balance. As has been said, this is a completely different weapon - one that I would not have spent money on.

Everything needs that!