Ogres vs. Dwarves: Who Will Be Next in The Workshop?

This is probably the greatest post I've ever seen on a gaming forum, I could not have said it better myself

And as far as getting down votes? Blah, not going to happen, especially when I'm around in other threads pointing out things that people like to ignore or not wish to talk about.

Honestly, fantastic response *bows in respect*

Heh, Thanks. Now if only I could go and fix those typos I now see... Although, "Finical" is a glorious typo, since that implies SOE has an entire department dedicated to being finicky.

It's a small department, but we do our best.

Did I miss something? I haven't seen a new workshop show anywhere.

It was today. Ogres won.
http://www.twitch.tv/everquestnext/ b/581033912

Ogres

The female models....ogres look more like barbarians/Halasians and the dwarf looks more like a gnome...so dainty...

actually I really like the dwarf female. The ogre female is the one I got a gripe with.

I agree.
I know I am in the minority but I really like the Dwarf Female concept art. I always make Male Dwarfs because the females are so plain and bland. Their current concept art appeals to me. I like the hair styles and the model with the side-burns.

The Ogre female I am not so happy with. Perhaps the 3D models will look better so I am reserving judgement until I see that.

I believe the problem the dwarves have faced in the polls, in part, is a matter of scope. We see the dwarves in Tolkien build grand underground halls. When expressed visually in the movies those halls those spanned on without end. The scope of it is truly inspiring. The ogre style guide had that sense of collosal scope but I think the EQN dwarves' lack of it to date contributes to their continued loss at the polls. I'm not sure how true this is but I felt like the devs were more excited themselves about the ogres for this round. What we see of the dwarves is a stone hovel, aesthetically pleasing and true to dwarven sensibilities, but it's not the best example of why we should take pride in all the accomplishments of the dwarven race. There's very little to get a sense of their grandness and majesty. Unfortunately these races by nature are competing on multiple levels for similar cultural real estate. There's nothing wrong with both races being militaristic and master builders but we do need to see those expressed in distinct yet equal ways.

Since EQN is designed for players to play all classes on one character (a decision I heartily approve of) one noteable drawback is that players will typically play one race to the exclusion of other. Choosing your race matters more than ever. If we see dwarves consistently losing in the poles I fear if that they're not better defined we'll see a noticeably lower representation of dwarves in the game population. At it's core, presenting two style guides for a pole is marketing both races and seeing which one gathers more excitement. Dwarves have a longstanding sense of tradition in fantasy settings so it's easy for readers/gamers/movie goers to feel that they've seen all things dwarf before yet resist substantial change. For good and for ill, dwarves tend to look the same between game settings. Making the dwarves feel new while staying true to the dwarven ethos is a monumental task in itself. My suspicion is that shaking the dwarves similarly to how the ogres were changed would stir up infinitely more controversy. Rather than seeing a dwarven cliche, we need to be in awe of all that the dwarves have achieved. Regardless of the race I finally chose to roll my character as I to want to see the dwarves as a virile and well refined presence in the game.

I know changing the ogres to be highly intelligent and Roman inspired was controversial but I think the ogres gain far more than they lost. I voted for ogres not because I wanted them in the game more than dwarves but because the devs seemed better prepared for the ogre workshop. Don't get me wrong, I love what EQN did with the ogres. Ogre archetecture reflects that they're the tallest playable race and dwarves are on the shortest until we see halflings or (dare I say it!?) gnomes. So what if dwarves are short? Dwarves have every bit as strong a desire to awe their kinsman and visitors as ogres do. Dwarves are also a prideful people and, in fact, pride is the mortar of dwarven society. I can envision a great dwarven forge with a literal river of magma flowing through and hundreds of NPC dwarven smiths hard at work. The player finds an open workstation to craft at but he/she has a dwarven master smith on each side to up the anti when his/her weaponsmithing has increased (2). The focus shouldn't be on how ogres are monument builders but rather how dwarves and ogres build different types of monuments. Dwarves might carve massive stone reliefs of their ancestors and kings of old. They take unequaled pride in their mining and metalworking? Let's see their jaw dropping handiwork at the forge! Let's see the bountiful gems they've unearthed crusting their finest armor and ornamentation! Let's feel their goldlust along with them when we see the gold embellishments in their royal halls or catch a glimpse of a closely guarded dwarven horde! I could picture dwarves with more wealth than tact who wear clothing literally woven from gold. As a people they're enduring and stubborn to a fault. In fact dwarves who absolutely don't know when to give up could author a wealth of quests. I fully believe the dwarves have the means to excite the player base if they think monumental in the dwarven way.

My bad. I should have said "style" or "theme" as opposed to "genre". The point still stands. Everquest was predicated upon rather specific versions of all these creatures that by and large all conformed to D&D and Tolkien standards. The only thing Everquest sought to change was the lore surrounding various creatures. In only rare instances did they alter what a creature actually was or should be according to D&D/Tolkien standards. And incidentally virtually all computer gaming versions of these creatures prior to and during that era followed down the same line. Like it or not what we saw in Everquest was the standard within gaming at that time. Very few exceptions.

I made no such reference to McQuaid as the "word of god". He along with Trost and Clover were the primary architects of Everquest and based the vast majority of their game on the D&D rule set and creature style. I don't understand what you want from me here, but it's pointless to be outraged by the mere mention of the man's name.

Again, this is a problem Sony created for themselves by using the Everquest title in the first place. And as I've said before, the "well it's Everquest but it's not like what it used to be" asterisk only goes so far. Speaking for myself only, I am completely on board with the new lore direction. I think the stories are fantastic. There can also be no argument they're a stark contrast from EQ1, EQOA and EQ2 so painting me as someone determined to accept nothing short of an EQ1 reboot seems like a pretty lazy jab. I was however always skeptical of the new art direction and that is without question part of the issue here for me. I simply can't envision these cartoonish figures performing the frequently dark and gruesome actions contained in the e-books. So there is that. But to further change the very nature of what an Orc or an Ogre or a Gnome is in contrast to how the Everquest universe has always claimed them to be puts it on a path of not being Everquest at all. Regardless of whether you believe all these creatures need "updating" or not, I think you are lying to yourselves if you don't believe you have stopping points of your own in this regard. Embracing change is one thing. Embracing change AND demanding it still be accepted as something else is quite another.

How well did soe describe pre-cursed ogres? Maybe EQN are how pre-cursed ogres could have been.

I'm sure EQ1 has done a lot more extensive fleshing out of their history over the years, but I'm not privy to a lot of it having left the game quite some time ago. That being said it didn't take a whole lot of searching to find at least some information.

There is of course the original EQ manual history in which the first mention of Ogres (prior even to their invasion of the Plane of Earth) states Rallos Zek made them to be "massive, unmovable beings of questionable intelligence". Later on it describes how the Ogres were bent upon conquest and expansion and that their "knowledge of magic grew as did their greed". So despite their questionable intelligence the original lore indicates they were capable of understanding and using magic, to the point it seems of being able to breach the Plane of Earth. (Side note: it's AFTER the Rallosian invasions that a great barrier was placed between Norrath and the Planes. The general idea is that it took great magics to accomplish such a task. However without a barrier between the two realms this may not have been the case at all.) The original lore does not actually mention the Ogres as being cursed with stupidity either. It merely states that thousands of Ogres were slain and their empire collapsed.

In the first EQ Player's Guide however there is a seldom referenced story called "Of the Greater Gods and the Giants and Their Curse" that describes the Ogres' fate in more detail. Within that story it states the "surviving Ogres lost both their knowledge and unity".

Finally, in both EQ and EQ2 there are/were books that could be bought (EQ1) or collected (EQ2) called the Chronicle of Gromok (Volumes I - IV). At best this lore was presented first with the Planes of Power release although it may have been added even later than that. This lore is written from the perspective of an Ogre warrior who survived the Invasion battles. It describes the battle as well as the defeat along with some basic info on each races' curse. It gives very descriptive detail regarding what the Ogres' curse entailed however which reads as follows:

"The children born to us survivors of the collapse of the Rallosian Empire were noticeably and frighteningly different than children of previous generations. This new generation of ogres was for the most part hairless, only females showed any ability to grow hair and even then it was thin and straggly. The flesh of the youngsters was of a paler complexion and warty and course, they suffered frequently from conditions that turned their eyes bloodshot, made their noses runny, and they often drooled incessantly. It soon became apparent, however, that these physical conditions were the least of our worries for they were still physically strong and enduring. It was their minds that concerned us the most. The new generation of Ogres exhibited little to no capacity to learn all but the most menial of tasks. The youngsters proved to be incapable of understanding the written languages and they struggled with speech, often communicating in grunts and barely comprehensible babble. We were hard on the first few children of this new generation. We did not yet fully understand what was happening and placed them in dangerous situations or left them stranded in the marsh to tend for their own survival. As time passed and our colony, dubbed Oggok, a word that the youngsters could remember and enunciate, grew in numbers.
It became apparent to us adults that a great curse had been laid upon our offspring. Every child being born exhibited the same physical and mental characteristics of those first few of the new generation.
Gone were the days of the Rallosian Empire. No longer would there be heroic olive skinned warriors, their dreadlocks adorned with bones of their enemies, brilliant minded tactitions and strategist to ensure our victories, or magi to wield fierce magic and open portals to even the realms of the gods themselves. I am old now, an elder of my people because I am among the last of the pre-curse generations. I leave these words that I now ink in the care of the most astute of the new generation Ogres, I pray that they will endure after I have gone to join Rallos in the afterlife, perhaps The Warlord will shed some hope on my despair and provide some answers as to why his glorious Empire has fallen."

From this then it seems we get the best description of what a pre-cursed Ogre was or could be. Olive skinned. Dreadlocked hair. Brilliant minded tactitions and/or fierce wielders of magic. As with all things EQ of course, races always spoke most highly of themselves so their true brilliance and magical prowess might still be debated. But this does offer a visual idea as to what ogres looked like prior to being cursed.

dwarf ?
dwarf !
DWARF!!!

erased

Rrrrrrrrr! .... Dwarf!

No more dwarf tease ... just do it!

What makes you think dwarves wear underwear?
Is there something from your college days, maybe some spring break memories, you want to share?