Ogres vs. Dwarves: Who Will Be Next in The Workshop?

Not for anything but it was an odd choice to release an Ogre-themed eBook and a new Workshop poll that included Ogres around the same time.

The psychology of it tells me that the devs wanted an influence in the decision making of our choice. LOL

I agree that they seem more Dwarvish, and that we need a lot more of that in our fantasy storytelling nowadays, we rarely get to see the nobility (or scheming ambition) of dwarves. I just don't think that The Hobbit should be taken completely out of canon the way that people do. Maybe taken as a spirited retelling from an eccentric old uncle, but not disregarded completely.

Like the elves, for example. I think it would have helped the movie version to have incorporated some of that puckishness into the sylvan elves, it would've given them a bit more depth and set them apart, they start getting flat if all they can do is act refined. They weren't supposed to be high and noble like Galadriel, outside of maybe Thranduil. I think it's that way with the dwarves too, they need both sides, I don't think we need to completely disregard the silliness.

The current dwarf trope though, is really mostly the absurd side, with the drinking and brawling stuff. They need to add some of the nobility and scheming back in. Dragon age did that really well, the origins story where you're a prince who gets betrayed by your brother to gain the throne... it was pretty epic. And totally Dwarvish.

I blame Thibbledorf Pwent, personally...

Why wouldn't they make their shoulderpads to fit themselves? Those epaulettes are rather large even for taller races such as elves and humans. They might fit Ogre's better.

I really hope we get to learn more about the dwarves. Dwarves are always a hit or miss for me in fantasy stories. By this I mean sometimes they're my favorite race and sometimes they're my least favorite race, depending on how they're handled. My favorite dwarves are those found in Lord of the Rings, Warcraft, and Dragon Age. All three series portray them as three dimensional people that go beyond the typical "drunk angry warrior" trope you tend to see in certain stories.

To me, the perfect dwarves are:

-Skilled inventors, craftsmen, and artisans
-honorable and militaristic to a fault
-value history, especially their own
-a bit greedy, especially when it comes to jewels and gems
-intelligent, but in a practical way
-purpose-driven

-stubborn
-rarely spellcasters, but very skilled in enchantment and rune-making

I've always imagined dwarves as unrivaled masters of building and architecture, so much so that they can build in ways other races would find impossible. To me, it makes sense for dwarves to build near lava flows and to build things as grand and intricate as possible. Their creations are so stable and strong that not even an earthquake can stop them.

I see dwarves building things to last. They're an ancient and powerful race, and their creations should reflect their hardy, immovable, stubborn nature. Everything they create should look strong, permanent, and beautiful in an imposing way. Architecture and stonework are considered artwork to dwarves. They are also a people driven by honor and war, so their creations should have that in mind. I've always loved how in Warcraft everything the dwarves make has a subtle world war era military feel to it. Buildings have a slight bunker / fortress vibe and it's clear they build cities in a way that would make them difficult to attack. In dragon age, they depart from the typical "Norse / viking" architecture and go for an intriguing cross between classical dwarf and mesoamerican styles:




*Note: that last one is from "The Hobbit"

I also hope that SOE goes into detail about the environment of the dwarves and how they live. I feel like, in many series, we don't get a sense of the dwarves lives beyond "they live underground and like beer". Again, I feel like Dragon Age is a good example of a series that makes the dwarven world feel "alive".

Since dwarves spend most of their time underground, their environment should feel like a place where something could conceivably live. In my opinion, the caves and natural tunnels surrounding the dwarven cities should feel almost like an underground “wilderness” with colorful fungus and subterranean plant-life. Exposed, glowing gemstones should bathe the caves in dim, starry light.


When a player goes underground, he should see old dwarven highways and maybe a few hidden villages



I feel as though there are a lot of interesting directions you can take their culture beyond just being "burly warriors who dirnk a lot". Examples include:

Food: dwarves live primarily underground, so their food may seem strange to surface dwellers. They make beer out of mushrooms and lichen, they make "bread" out of cave fungus, the meat they eat is entirely from subterranean creatures. I imagine their food is very starchy and protein-based, and always complimented with lots of beer. I imagine an underground version of the classic “meat and potatoes”.

Materials: Stone is an obvious choice. Or perhaps some form of conrete unique to their people. The natural caverns in which they live should blend organically with their perfectly chiseled pillars and monuments. Metals like bronze and brass should commonly be seen in their weapons, ornaments, and machines. Jewels and gems are important to dwarves as well, Though not just for decorative reasons. Dwarven jewelcrafters are able to exploit the natural magic within their gems, They should make little, if any, use of "surface-materials" like wood or photosynthetic plant life. Dwarves don't need to burn wood to heat their cities or keep them lit: they have lava, coal, and glowing gemstones.

Technology: I've always seen dwarves as inventors and master craftsmen. Everything they make should be practical and purpose driven as opposed to the more eccentric gnomes. This doesn't mean that their creations should look plain, however. When a dwarf builds something, it's his masterpiece, a work of art. It should look meticulous, intricate. Everything a dwarf builds is part of his legacy, something that will be seen for thousands of years. They should use their underground environment in very clever, deceptively simple ways. Their homes are heated through lava flows which are diverted through tunnels surrounding their cities like an intricate irrigation system.Maybe you can see the lava flow behind enchanted glass, giving the dwarves something to look at besides the same stone all day.

Enchanted gemstones and ancient runes enhance and augment the properties of the things they create, making them even stronger and resistant to lava and other forms of wear and tear. They also engrave runes on their weapons and tools, enchanting them with magical power. Their master smithing, when combined with their enchantment skills, could lead to some interesting “technology”, like golems for example:



These are just some suggestions I've had in mind about the dwarven people and how I'd like to see them portrayed in Everquest Next. Honestly, I'm new to the series, so I don't know if any of this is remotely compatible with the dwarves in the previous games. In the end, if SOE is capable of making the dwarves 3 dimensional characters, without forgetting their reputation as the best builders and craftsmen in the world, then I'll be satisfied.

Sorry to double post, but I just wanted to say I agree with everything you say here.

I'm with Draconious and Brasse because we love Dwarves !!
~Artist

My vision of a Dwarven society might include a division into two primary factions. The political minded Dwarf and the militaristic Dwarf.

The political Dwarf would consist of shrewd merchants, Priests, traders and nobleman... stern, aloof, set in their ways and very egocentric

The militaristic Dwarf would consist of miners, guards, craftsman/the working class... jovial, easy-going and very humble/modest.

And perhaps the districts where they live could reflect their status.

Where huge statues would be built of the finest materials for the political faction but the countenance shown on those statues would be ice-cold and blank. With material goods such a coins and scepters shown on those carvings. Never with a smile but just staring into nothingness.
Hugh lavish homes trimmed in gold and gems.

Yet the militaristic statues might show more raw emotion built with basic stone materials on a much smaller scale.
For example a well known war hero displayed as if he were charging into battle shouting his warcry.
Or a group of miners that died working the mines remembered in a stone carving of them sitting at a table with smiles on their faces and tankards of ale raised high.
Modest homes of stone perhaps with a small boxes around the home with various plants (or fungus) growing for them to use in their daily meals.

whoah! The personal attacks!! we all know Herzgo Alegni is responsible, so lets not shift the blame to innocent, non violent and perfectly well mannered dwarves.

I noticed some of you guys liked my the post I made above about what I want to see from the dwarves. If you want to talk about dwarves further, I made a thread for all our ideas:

https://forums.station.sony.com/everquestnext/index.php?threads/lets-talk-about-dwarves.573/

Also, here's more pictures!

I am absolutely stunned that the Dwarves are losing another poll. I do agree that the concept art is... lacking for the dwarves and maybe that is playing a part in their demise. I've been looking forward to the Dwarven workshop since the beginning!

Concerning those saying that Dwarves have been "done to death": No more so than humans & elves I say! These three races are generally the cornerstones of civilization while the rest of the races play smaller roles, or hold less influence. Don't read that I see other races as less interesting, I just see a need to tackle the more prominent races before diving down for details on the lesser known (more unique) races.

Zap

Releasing an Ogre-themed eBook at the same time the poll goes out didn't help much. Especially since there really hasn't been a Dwarf story yet other than Rastimund in The Stars of Home.

The good thing is builder's skills progress a lot on each new race. The last races to be worked on will have the best buildings

Voted Ogres.

The dwarves look cool but the ogres almost look like orcs here. Expecially the female one. I mean...I like them...really....and the girl is cute.....but they don't remind me of an ogre.
The ogres from Shrek are much more credible.
But if most of players here prefer the ogres to be like that...well,I respect the choice.

Ogres are new? Both Ogres and Dwarves have been at the EQ table since the beginning. Perhaps you've been eating at a different table? Dwarves are awesome and the longer they get pushed back, the longer EQN's design lingers in mediocrity. KALADIM !!! Beat back the foul Ogres, punish them in the passes, slay them upon the slopes, let not a single one forget what it means to fight a Dwarf.

armor in a game should make my character look cool. If I wanted my character to look like a man I'd make a man character. I think our opinions differ anyway because I am 100% against armor that makes my character look uninteresting to me and am not for even allowing it as an option...

Ogres!!!! why you might ask? Because I'm bound and determined to make dwarves the final race to be worked on... Why you ask again? cause a dwarf stuck me with a bar tab once......

*Ogres FTW over a matter of 10 gold*

I think this is a large part of the reason. It definitely contributed to my vote in at least a small way. For the ogres we get to see a gigantic, interesting structure with all sorts of unique shapes, but for the dwarves we see some boring metal-clad bunker.

Just a taste of the Dwarven:

Ogres will win and Dwarves will be pushed again...no way the poll will change now. It never has and likely never will. It's usually decided before the weekend even hits at least with the current trend has one or the other ahead on Friday and it stays that way plus or minus a couple of percentage points till the end.

As for those calling foul play, with the Ogre fiction coming out at the same time, I don't think it really matters as only a SMALL fraction of the player base reads those or sees any urgency in voting for them because they know a little more about Ogres now (not much since the entire novel was simply giving you the Ogre mindset except for the ending) we will get to all races eventually, Ogres are just newer and more interesting overall.

Dwarves are not likely going to win....till the end except for maybe against humans....maybe. Face it, they are the most boring race out there. They've been here since Tolkien and we all know them and basically aren't really interested in the minor twist they are going to add to their usual drinking and craftsmanship. It's not really anything against the dwarves, it's just how it is. They have been stale for a decade now and it won't change now. They just have a very devoted fan base which makes the support seem like more than there is.

The ONLY thing that could push them over the top is pity...although in my case I kinda want to push them to the end because it would be a great story

Look at the roster of races left:
Halflings...more interesting because they are charming and their style could go anywhere
Iksar....hardcore awesome and unpredictable style.
Elves....pretty architecture/style and fun to create and almost ALWAYS the most populated race.
Humans...about as boring but very diverse so you never know what they could be so curiosity will win.

I honestly hope this disparage between dwarf support and what they thought beforehand (pitting them against Dark Elves) will illuminate why nobody is interested in the race anymore and MAYBE that will persuade them to push the envelope with Dwarves....but not likely since the only people that play Dwarves want them to be typical so *shrugs*.