How do you feel about modern concepts like guns and Ninjas in EverQuest Next?

* I had to ghetto quote you because for whatever reason it would not let me quote you directly*
Gossamer wrote in blue:

You seem to just want to come up with reasons to disagree with me just to disagree with me. You keep bringing up lore. I keep saying don't let lore limit the game. You say I am wrong for believing that not including these things will hurt subs. I say you are wrong for believing it won't. You say my points are moot because they don't already exist in the game again bringing up lore. I say how will we ever know if they are never added to the lore. I brought up the wizard example and you try to deflect it by basically saying 'well wizards are part of lore of course they'll be in" you completely missed the point I was trying to make, it was an example, it was a way of trying to convey to you how it would feel if you couldn't play what you truly desired but you chose to ignore that. You want me to come up with examples of how ninjas and guns can work in eqn? Ok how about this:

Ninjas:

-Can have 3 battle types/stances based on equiped weapon:

Dual wielding style
-Daggers or knives: melee range burst dps playstyle

Single sword style
-Long sword or katana: melee range slower but higher dmg output

Throwing weapon style
-Shurikens or throwing knives: mid range burst dps has the bonus of mobility at the cost of dps output

Gun Users:

-Can have 3 battle types/stances based on equiped weapon:

Shotgun Weapons

-Close range aoe weapon used to tackle large groups of mobs at once

Rifle Weapons
-Mid range single target burst fire can have added effect of stun/cripple or slow

Sniper Rifle Weapons
-Long range high burst dps but with the penalty of immobility and very slow

Those are just examples I came up with quickly that I feel easily show how guns and ninjas can work in EQN. Telling me they can't work because "they are not part of established lore" is not going to fly with me. That way of thinking is exactly what i'm fighting against. I'm not sure what else you want from me at this point besides what I have said.

This is a genre where the story/lore gets scrutinized and dissected by players even more than usual. I am up for modern and 'strange' things popping up, but they have to follow a certain set of rules. I can come up with a couple.
1) It has to make sense within the world.
2) The visual style has to remain the same.
3) Advanced technology easily pops out in a jarring fashion. Steampunk > Laser pyramids.
4) Invent your own thing. No anime/asian/scifi/insert-popular-thing-here just for the sake of pandering to certain audiences.

You're giving me examples of how guns could work on a mechanical basis, in game usage and whatnot. I can see that working off of the lore wont fly with you, so we will have to agree to disagree on this entire argument, because the lore *is* my argument. If you want a game with guns then don't bloody well call it Everquest. Ninja I have no problem with, because it can easily be added to the game within the established lore. Lore is a big deal to may of us, and I know you could give a damn about it. We will never agree here because of the lore argument. I wanted examples of how guns could work *within the lore that we have* but you refuse/don't care to argue on that basis. I don't care to disagree with you just to disagree. To say so is to attempt to demean me, which isn't working. I said your points were moot because they were moot. I understood your argument but its not a good argument the way you put it. Try to instead argue that a gun class would be missed, which you can't because EQ has never had guns. I said that point was moot because you said if wizards, an established class in Everquest, were to vanish it would make people mad. OF COURSE IT WOULD... But you cannot turn that same argument into a gun class being excluded BECAUSE IT NEVER EXISTED. You can't logically have the same desire for a gun class because an EQ gun class has never existed; you can't possibly miss something you never had before.

You keep saying don't let lore limit the game. I keep saying the lore is what defines the game.

If you are trying to "fight against that type of thinking", why limit yourself to firearms and ninjas? Why not argue for laser weapons, grenade launchers, ICBM's, particle beam weapons, T100 Terminators, submarines, tanks (the track laying variety, not the combat role variety), railroads, passenger jets, accountants, tour guides, bus drivers, etc. None of those are part of established lore, either.

Ridiculous? Most certainly to those guilty of "that type of thinking", but not really ridiculous to people with your type of thinking.

It is the new technology that is causing the problems. They put the Planetside server next to the Everquest next server and with the new server jumping. Well.... we got tanks and guns in Norrath.

PlanetQuest!! Or EverSide... nah, PlanetQuest is best! I'll fly a plane up Inny's back-end!

You forgot what happened going the other way. When all the necromancers flooded the Planetside server the first thing they said was, "Essence Emeralds". The only thing living on the Planetside server now is the necromancers.

I would also like to say that I really feel that some of you are really letting lore hold this game down simply because you are so attached to the glory days of the old eq that you believe that holding onto the lore will bring back that feeling you had playing the original. I get it, I truly do, but I'm sorry to be the one to tell you that that feeling is never going to come back and clinging to lore and tradition is not going to bring it back.

It's like trying to capture that feeling of your first love agian. You will never have that exact feeling about anyone else it's just not going to happen. I had some amazing memories from eq, I made some really great long lasting friendships because of that game, but eq is done and gone those days are done and gone. We are dealing with a new generation of gamers. An entire generation that never heard of eq, that couldn't care less about the lore, or about just how amazing this game was 14 years ago. You have to appeal to the new generation as well as the old but honestly more so the new.

Gamers like us are a dying breed. For example do you honestly think gamers nowadays would be willing to camp jboots for literally 72 hours straight staring at there monitor waiting for a ph to spawn in the hopes that it means the Ancient cyclops will spawn next while keeping lists of people waiting for the spawn after you and refusing to leave because you know your spot will be taken if you do? That's what I had to do and I never want to have to do anything like that again for any game. I'm too old and too busy and kids these days would never have the patience for it nor should they honestly. It's completely unhealthy and thinking back on it was pretty insane. But man it felt amazing getting that ancient ring FINALLY and getting those jboots. I admit that but again I would never subject myself to something like that again.

All I'm saying is we HAVE to be open to new ideas people. We can't allow ourselves to become grumpy old men telling the kids to get off our lawn and get off our game. Be willing to compromise don't just immediately so NO like spoiled children. You can come up with a plethora of reasons why you feel that eq lore needs to be the end all be all but I'm telling you in the end that's doing nothing but hurting the game and hurting its longevity.

I wouldn't mind seeing some of this. Since there will only be two weapon types to a class, they would probably end up with a couple of each, particularly with those using firearms. Ninja had more of that iconic role that, although they have obviously used multiple weapons, people tend to associate them with specific ones.

For firearm wielding classes, I would definitely expect more of a short range pistol, mid shotgun, and sniper/battle rifle combination. I wonder if they intend to include class specific appearances because that would be pretty cool to get in my opinion. They have their armor families of course, but if they have the options to have it more resemble a class specific look, that would nice.

See, I would argue that sticking to the lore and established world of EQ can be done and esily eliminate epic camps and camping anything in general. Camping is a mechanic that needs to die a horrible painful death. You can eliminate things like that and still keep the world of Norrath intact, so why rip it apart with things that don't fit? Change what needs to be changed, there's a ton of stuff to change from EQ1 and EQ2. But to senselessly add stuff in because its cool and might drag a few more subs over from other dying games is silly, to me. I don't want old EQ back, if you'd read up before posting these rants you would understand that none of us want EQN to be EQ1:2. We've all said we want the good change, and we don't see the need for guns to be part of that change. There's plenty to change without radically modifying the world. I don't think fighting for lore will hurt a game that is 14 years old and hasn't closed up shop. I also don't want the original lore, I like the changes they are making! The changes they are making are still part of the world that was Everquest, and the changes they are making don't involve guns (yet).

Sigh....you are taking my example to the extreme and you and I both know it. Common sense is an amazing thing and I'm sure we can both use it. I said in an earlier post that guns/ninjas are not game breaking. Lasers and particle weapons would of course be game breaking. Come at me with something better than this.

That course of argument would be "Reductio ad Absurdum."

Norrath has a long history of modern concepts. That being said, nobody really raised an eyebrow when they were implemented, because they were implemented correctly.

I think the key to these concepts is proper presentation; making them blend well with the High Fantasy setting of EverQuest without making them stick out like a sore thumb.

I'm thinking gun users would be leather type class or chain maby? Although leather seems the obvious choice. For ninja I think it would be really interesting to make them a cloth class as I don't think I've ever seen a cloth melee class in any mmo I've played so far and I would love to see how that would work out. Being a ninja they could have extremely high agility to make up for the lack of armor and still maintain being at close range. I kinda think that would be an awesome class to play.

I like that! I will have to use it in the future. Almost like a straw man argument.

If they do add older style guns to EQ Next, there should be a consequence that comes with it. Because they did blow up a lot back then. It should back-fire on the user at times.. Black powder is nothing to mess with..

I am just kind of curious about what you mean by compromise?

We have one side that says, "Yes" and one side that says, "No". What would be the middle ground there? "Nes"?

There is no compromise, firearms will either be in game or they won't be. The only possible compromise would be not having a game at all.

You say, "We HAVE to be open to new ideas" but what you mean is we have to automatically ACCEPT anything that someone wants to claim is new. Here is a new idea for you, "I don't have to accept everything that is different just to prove I have an open mind."

I would definitely lean more towards a leather build vs chain for the guns myself but yeah, definitely would be interested in seeing the Ninja in all of that. Be very interesting to see how they would turn out in that. Ninja in cloth. Yeah they would definitely need some high agil to get all of that down. That would be a whole lot of fun.

Cloth wearing melee classes are definitely fun, if uncommon. Reminds me of my old Friar in DAoC. *ponder*

Personally, I think that too many High Fantasy MMOs go too far with the modern concepts. I'm against too many modern concepts in a High Fantasy because, while a world infused with magic doesn't necessarily need to follow the same logical set of rules as we do, it still needs to follow some set of rules. I think that plate armor and all the things you like from a high fantasy setting would become obsolete if you logically put guns in the setting. What purpose would plate armor serve when it became obsolete in reality after the invention of even very, very primitive muskets.

As for Ninjas, as much as that's a modern concept it's a cultural one, and to my knowledge of lore, that sort of cultural references has no place in the setting. Let alone the modern concepts of the ninjas. I'd prefer not to see ninjas because I think this game should stay away from anime concepts more then it should stay away from modern ones. As for modern anime concepts? That's a horrible path to go down.

I just think that the setting is best served leaving magic, crossbows, and bows to be the only ranged weapons. It livens the setting, to me. It's more original.

And in modern High Fantasy, I would argue that it's something of a new concept NOT to implement guns and ninjas. They're definitely in vogue in the High Fantasy MMO settings. So, as far as those saying, "You're just tied to the old ways," sort of thing, I'm new to Everquest and I want to avoid them because I see guns and ninjas in everything. Let's just step away from that and go with real High Fantasy.

Or just don't risk ruining it because high-fantasy is already awesome and doesn't need guns and ninjas? Stuff did slip into EQ over the years. Did it really add? Was it worth it?