There are many ways death could work in MMOs...

You're walking down a path RPing with your friends on the way to a dungeon and along the way you pass some poor dead soul... Then the same guy again... And again.... And again... And again...

Never longer than 24 hours. Unless they changed that since I quit back in '08, that is.

The point of it is to add an element of danger and realism. How is it fun being able to just run headfirst into everything, without a care in the world? There's no strategy, there's no thought process. If you die, you just get back up and keep killing it? Doesn't sound very fun to me. If you don't want your time "wasted", then don't die. Make an effort to stay alive, and keep your friends alive. That's the point of these games, isn't it?

I voted for I want a hefty penalty such as a corpse run that might require an entire group to help.

How is a world full of monsters that want to kill you supposed to feel dangerous, and alive if you don't have to use your head a bit when getting around, and you don't fear death?

Why not have a hardcore server with corpse runs just like from Everquest when it first came out and a regular server with lighter penalties? This way hardcore players would have a server they can go to and get that sense of accomplishment.

I always found gear hits as a death penalty lazy. Beyond that I find it to be poor game design. Why? Because the end result of it is that it always causes player contention.

Hold on guys - I have to run back to town to repair!

Salutations,

First and foremost, I am for a form of penalty or mechanic that encourages players to avoid death, yet I don’t believe that the choices in the poll adequately reflected the nature of the question. So, I chose the lesser of multiple evils, “I prefer a minor penalty such as XP debt or a ghost corpse run that is essentially just a loss of time.”

Since I took an interest in EQN, I have heard many recounts of the draconic penalty systems its predecessors espoused, and noted the “rose-tinted glasses” than fans and diehards of those two games wear during their recollections. Honestly, I think it would be a turn-off to many players, especially demographics that grew up with World of Warcraft and its competitors; not Ultima or the EverQuests I & II. Personally, I think that Jon Peters, a game designer for Guild Wars 2, said it best, “Defeat in Guild Wars 2 is intended to be an experience, not a punishment. Let's face it: dying never feels great, even without a death penalty.”

He’s quite right. You can attach a high, low, or no penalty at all; but at the end of the day it still sucks to die. So, why pour salt on the wound? Why penalize the player by taking their hard-earned experience from successful encounters? Why force them to rely on others, who could ridicule them, rather than help the defeated retrieve their corpse and a few shreds of dignity? Defeat should be a learning experience, a thrilling one even, not a grueling slog through a monochrome wasteland or a beard gnashing fit of rage.

Here are several ideas/penalties that I believe can keep players from abusing “death” to corpse-hop and similar activities, but also take some of the bite out of being defeated:

• In the Dragon Age series, characters tend to receive a “crippling” debuff that impedes their movement, offensive, or defensive abilities, which could be mirrored in EverQuest Next. As a matter of fact, you could even toss in visualization such as the character hobbling if they have a movement debuff; clutching a wounded arm to their chest and unable to dual-wield or use a two-hander; etc.
• Defeat could result in armor or weapon resilience damage, thus players swiftly learn the values of tactical retreats in order to protect their purse. It is less “shaming” than losing experience points and you can even tie armor visuals into it. For instance, if you die a lot then your armor may appear weathered and beaten because a.) You’re not addressing armor repairs until the item is broken. Or b.) You ran out of gold on previous repairs.
• Institute a “Downed” status, similar to Guild Wars 2 or D&D, where the player is still capable of some form of resistance against their attacker; at least, until the attacker decides to put them out of their misery or a set time limit expires and they “pass out” or “die”.
• Some combination of I, II, and III.

I think we need some sort of "death insurance" mechanic. You find a dude in town who's willing to hedge your eventual death for a certain percentage. You pay the guy a certain amount of gold that lasts for a period of time commensurate to the amount of money you paid.

You die in your insured time frame, your insurance agent helps you recover part or all of your gear/corpse/reduces the death penalty you just incurred/basically makes it easier for you to get back into the game.

You don't die in your insured time frame, your agent refunds you part of your money but keeps some as a gold sink.

I voted for "hefty penalty such as a corpse run." That said, I don't even think the corpse run was a particularly elegant game mechanic. It worked because it was the correct level of difficulty, not because of anything magical about that particular game mechanic. I'm voting for the principle, not the specifics.

yes but like i said. NO real good way to deal with death. Its by definition is final. So anything that allows you to respawn is hard to deal with penalty wise.

But also remember, we will probably have a few armor sets saved. So if we can have 5, if you die 5 times, you probably shouldn't be in that area for whatever reason.

I want to reiterate, as well... if they sell in-game cash in the player store... they are removing the level playing field by making IN GAME MONEY be the penalty.

Because people who can buy lots of in game money with real life cash won't ever even so much as NOTICE a "repair" penalty. Not even a minor blip on their radar.

Neither will "high level" and "hardcore" people.They won't notice it eventually one way or another. Additionally, as the game progresses and people become saturated with money, the penalty gets less and the excitement and danger level drops.

Money as the penalty for death is just a bad idea. Whether that is measured in gear repair or something else... in-game money is just a bad choice over-all.




With corpse recoveries, the game continues to feel dangerous from level (tier) one all the way up. If anything, the danger (and thus excitement) only increases, the more you have to lose!

Eh, that's not entirely true. Some ghost runs could be fairly long, but, as I said, many were too short to really care too much about. If you died a lot, you would start getting annoyed. Having to sit at your body for a couple minutes waiting to res is quite annoying.

However, the feeling, the immersion of it, I remember being very cool, especially the first time you experienced it. There was something ... right about ending up in the ghost world the way you did, and having the spirit rezzer there and all that.

I think if the penalties were ever so slightly stiffer, it would have been just perfect.

I think the people that want hard-core death penalties are people that played EQ1 from the beginning (like I did), and think that it's "the way to do it".

Death should be a penalty for saying "you did something wrong, come back when you learned your lesson".

Corpse runs are like being thrown in jail for a month for jaywalking. Death is never fun, and can be frustrating. However, how do you learn unless you take a few chances?

Who wants to take chances when the penalties are so harsh?

Corpse runs that may possibly involve grouping to complete? Yes please. Though, knowing how the world will "repair" itself, how would that work once the underground dungeon you're body is in has caved in? I suppose at that point you would rely on a class corpse summon or an NPC temple priest to bring it to you for a fee.

I would have also voted for the XP loss, equipment damage and possible equipment looting in PVP scenarios. Death should be SCARY, but able to eventually recover from. You manage to retrieve your corpse, you suffer less of a penalty. You repair your equipment (which you should have to do on occassion anyway over time.*) You will eventually earn the lost experience back.

I played on the Diablo 3 permadeath server for a while when it came out. It was intense and crazy and I never, ever soloed. And we never did any of it too fast and were careful about how many creatures we pulled at one time. I don't know if anything besides a dedicated special server would work for an MMO. Not if they really want to make money. If it did exist, I might have a character on there to amuse and challange myself. But it wouldn't be a main character. LOL.

Recently, we've been playing EQ2 again. Death in that game - while never as punishing as EQ1 used to be - no longer matters. It's sometimes used as a travel method for Pete's sake! "What's the worst that could happen? We die? Pft." We jokingly say if we head into harder content. That used to be a solomn and serious response. Now it's a joke. EQ1's system is around the same level now too. I can't count how many unclaimed corpses one can see in the contestes dungeons anymore. Littered around like forgotten cups after a concert.

Life of consequence? Prove it. Make failing hurt and matter. Make dungeon crawls.. crawl again. I HATE coming into content a bit late, wanting to do the dungeons and raids and rushed through it because everyone has already done it, has no time for you to stop and read the dialogue or pick up that book, death is something to be laughed at and they chain pull the whole thing down on your head to get through it as fast as possible. There are achievements for this. ACHIEVEMENTS for blowing through content.

TL;DR - Make death matter. A life of consequence and invested gameplay start with that.

* I still think items that build in power as you use them, similar to.. eh.. Final Fantasy 7's materia mechanics, would be cool to have. But that is a side thought, sorry for the minor derail.

Awesome poll by the way, devs. And thanks for including options like permadeath instead of "child-proofing" the poll.

Less stick, more carrot.

In other words: Having friends help you out is a great way to get your equipment back with a minimal penalty. However, you should never be forced to lose everything simply because of bad timing.

Give us different options, each with their own consequences. A single solution that could radically impact our progress based on social (or lack thereof) interaction isn't a good game mechanic.

I'm for personal penalty. I think MMO's have trivialized death these days, but I also think full group corpse runs are too much... at the end of the night, if I bite it, I don't want to have to stay up another 2 hours on the run just to get corpse. De leveling is fine, gear damage is fine, there should be penalties!

But as someone who left quite a few corpses deep in the bottom of dungeons back in the day... no desire to do that again.

-Bongo

"Incompetence - When you earnestly believe you can compensate for lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can not do."

A mantra I live by.

What I hate about other MMO's. Bad players who waste my time by doing stupid things.

A white notepad was my original friends list in EQ1. It came about because the game required community, and punished poor thinking.

Aside from perma-death and an 18hr corpse runs; I want harsh death penalties. Make me cringe at the thought of death. Make people "ooo and awe" thinking of what amazing rooms and areas lay behind those guarded gates. This is the exact discussion friends and I have been having for 5 years now. Corpse runs in general are good... just not the aforementioned 3/4 of a day.

Harsh death penalties bring on the situations of: If you are the occasional foolish player, learn to not be. Ask around, there are people who will help you with advice even gear. If you continue, then you are not going to be played with in the toughest areas. A lot of people like to work at and become the best at some internal mechanic/class/playstyle in the game. But, a lot just want free loot and to run over a hill only to have the world bow down as they steamroll through content. Those harsh penalties made the game scary... made you know your friends. Made you think of tactics, cohesion, and execution. It made content advancement treasure in itself.

One great line is "One does not simply walk into Mordor..." PLEASE PLEASE make this feeling return in games.

Yes, at times I hated my corpse runs, I hated de-leveling and losing some spells, afk for 30 seconds to bio and found a train standing on my head. But, it made me a much more aware player. It made the moments when you did accomplish something worth every bit effort put into clawing and scraping to get that goal accomplished.

As for the solo vs group aspect of the game. I'm sorry, but I hope you won't be able to solo the whole game. Unless of course you're a Necro . I hope the game is meant for community, and that solo is applicable, but not for everything. And if trying to do something solo means more death, and more penalties and more de-leveling. Well, my friend, you'll just be all that more famous when you do finally manage to solo it.

Horrible idea. Out of game currency should NEVER be allowed to thwart death penalties. Real currency has NO business in the playing field of death mechanics, because death mechanics level the playing field in a game!

When rich people in RL can buy their way out of in-game death debt, it takes away the fantasy of being in a world where everyone's equal. It butts into the game world with real life financial inequalities.

Please, don't do that, SOE! Ensure that real life money does not impact the level playing field!

Not sure if I agree or not, but had some thoughts on what you said..

If the maerials needed are based on what equipment you are wearing (higher tier material for higher tier equipment) and you need a certain skill "level" unlocked to repair it, it could very well be that not everyone could just do it.
And, who knows, repairing might need some kind of workstation, like anvil for weapons etc.

Just putting it out there