You want to see why Guardians have something to complain about?

ARCHIVED-Dananeb · Jan 7, 2006

“Baldaena wrote:

“Dananeb wrote:

“Baldaena wrote:
very nice post thanks :smileywink:

I can see dev have done great work and the game is well balanced

Some examples :
- Quarrel / Inflaming defense : No snare for bruiser - Single target only for bruiser and we have to be able to actually hit the encounter, Guard anything that hits him. mm, ok, but look at your short duration buff and compare their drawbacks... almost all thses buff have drawbacks for guardians, You have sevelral ability without any drawbacks...
We have a mitigation buff that requires extreme damage to be dealt before it actually becomes usefull, and our agro proc affects 1 target. You get snared (yes the root was wrong) and you get an attacks slow on you, this does not how ever affect CA's.
- Stone deaf /tower of stone : 3hits for bruiser&guardians, nothing is destroyed for bruiser - spells only for bruiser, No clue about Guard Lol, read the thread :smileywink: Tower of stone destroy our shield... Bruiser have 0 drawbacks for the same ability
But it is limited, you can however stock up on crappy shields and go to town with your skill, it wouldnt be the first time a player have to buy items to stay on top of things.
- Devastation fist / Unyielding will : programmed died vs Stiffle for 8seconds for bruiser - This kills a solo mob and Stifles the BRUISER!!! lol read the thread :smileywink: the Bloodline ability stiffle bruiser for 8sec and kill guardians after 30sec..great...great and very usefull
Well, you shouldn't really use this skill unless you would die anyway.
- Eye Plunk / Relentless charge : decrease slashing/piercing etc of 40 for bruiser vs....11 for guardians Eye pluck 36sec dur, 45sec recast 115 power cost, Relentless charge 20sec dur, 20sec recast 65 power cost. :and? x2 power for better dammage and x4 (40 vs 10) for the decrease in slashing/etc/
Ok let me do the math for you.
Eye pluck (masterI)
45 seconds recast 1022 damage at max. 40 debuff to CPS

Relentless Charge (adeptI)
20 seconds recast 330 initial + (62x4) = 578, Now lets mulitiply it by 2 so we get roughly the same duration, 1156 damage over 40 seconds

So the Guardian skill does more damage over less time at adept1 vs Master1, sure the power cost is now 115 vs 130 in favor of the Bruiser but the damage now lies with the Guardian.

And I don't speak about utility (cure, stun(=mez?), fd, heal, safe fall) and dps and flavor... I don't understand how any developer could supposed this game is not balanced. I will keep adding here, Bruiser 21% dps to group(master1), Guardian 13.9 to C/P/S(ad1), 447HP(ad3), 19.3defense(M2), 389 crush mit and 486 slash/pierce mit(ad1).
As states before(look at the unsung hero post) , It's usefull :
- if guardians is not Mt
- if guardians loose agro
Oh im sorry, i didn't know you didn't get these buff applied to you, /sarcasm off
Great job, yes great job, thanks soe.”

”

But the question is not to ask a Bruiser's nerf... I only want to shed in light that guardians needs some love... 125th days of silence is a very hard punishment for Guardians'community...:smileysad:”

ARCHIVED-Baldaena · Jan 7, 2006

“Dananeb wrote:

“Baldaena wrote:

“Dananeb wrote:

“Baldaena wrote:
very nice post thanks :smileywink:

I can see dev have done great work and the game is well balanced

Some examples :
- Quarrel / Inflaming defense : No snare for bruiser - Single target only for bruiser and we have to be able to actually hit the encounter, Guard anything that hits him. mm, ok, but look at your short duration buff and compare their drawbacks... almost all thses buff have drawbacks for guardians, You have sevelral ability without any drawbacks...
We have a mitigation buff that requires extreme damage to be dealt before it actually becomes usefull, and our agro proc affects 1 target. You get snared (yes the root was wrong) and you get an attacks slow on you, this does not how ever affect CA's.
[Repeat mode]
I don't speak especialy of Quarrel.
Look at ALL your short durations buff and check their drawbacks...
- For guardians, all these buff have drawbacks (only ONE have none drawback)
- Bruiser have several short duration buff without any drawbacks... plz look at your spellbook...

- Stone deaf /tower of stone : 3hits for bruiser&guardians, nothing is destroyed for bruiser - spells only for bruiser, No clue about Guard Lol, read the thread :smileywink: Tower of stone destroy our shield... Bruiser have 0 drawbacks for the same ability
But it is limited, you can however stock up on crappy shields and go to town with your skill, it wouldnt be the first time a player have to buy items to stay on top of things.
LOL, indeed it's great, thank you, you'r a genius... :smileywink:
And what if it was your ability which would damage your equipment ?
I'm sorry it's not fair...

- Devastation fist / Unyielding will : programmed died vs Stiffle for 8seconds for bruiser - This kills a solo mob and Stifles the BRUISER!!! lol read the thread :smileywink: the Bloodline ability stiffle bruiser for 8sec and kill guardians after 30sec..great...great and very usefull
Well, you shouldn't really use this skill unless you would die anyway.
yes, and with it, I plan to commit suicide... and you think it's normal ? me not, this ability is almost useless...

- Eye Plunk / Relentless charge : decrease slashing/piercing etc of 40 for bruiser vs....11 for guardians Eye pluck 36sec dur, 45sec recast 115 power cost, Relentless charge 20sec dur, 20sec recast 65 power cost. :and? x2 power for better dammage and x4 (40 vs 10) for the decrease in slashing/etc/
Ok let me do the math for you.
Eye pluck (masterI)
45 seconds recast 1022 damage at max. 40 debuff to CPS

Relentless Charge (adeptI)
20 seconds recast 330 initial + (62x4) = 578, Now lets mulitiply it by 2 so we get roughly the same duration, 1156 damage over 40 seconds

So the Guardian skill does more damage over less time at adept1 vs Master1, sure the power cost is now 115 vs 130 in favor of the Bruiser but the damage now lies with the Guardian.
Ok, Your right, it was maybe not the best example... but 100pt/40sec vs -30 crushing/slasling/etc (minus SIX levels in resists) is maybe balanced (but with minus 6 levels you are able to virtualy grey some mob and virtualy improve your avoidance)... but I admit It's maybe balanced, It's hard to compare without any log file)

And I don't speak about utility (cure, stun(=mez?), fd, heal, safe fall) and dps and flavor... I don't understand how any developer could supposed this game is not balanced. I will keep adding here, Bruiser 21% dps to group(master1), Guardian 13.9 to C/P/S(ad1), 447HP(ad3), 19.3defense(M2), 389 crush mit and 486 slash/pierce mit(ad1).
As states before(look at the unsung hero post) , It's usefull :
- if guardians is not Mt
- if guardians loose agro
Oh im sorry, i didn't know you didn't get these buff applied to you, /sarcasm off
We need these buff in order to tank as well as any other fighter...:smileysad:

Great job, yes great job, thanks soe.”

”

But the question is not to ask a Bruiser's nerf... I only want to shed in light that guardians needs some love... 125th days of silence is a very hard punishment for Guardians'community...:smileysad:”

”

I'm sorry if I need to fight with you, bruiser are not my target, I have a friend who is playing a bruiser, he enjoys it and find the class realy wonderfull and I planned to play a bruiser when I had more time (so I don't want any nerf on it)...
what I want to point is that guardians need attention and not bruiser need nerf. Bruiser are currently great (correct me if it's false) that why I think It's a good idea to look at Bruiser and try to determine what could improve us and change us into an enjoyable class.
If something make me angry, It's not bruiser, It's the silence of developers who avoids us since almost 130 days... The last developpers' post is "the famous unsung hero" post... I think guardians have the right to ask for more attention, more respect, more fun...
Message Edited by Baldaena on 01-08-200612:51 AM

ARCHIVED-Dananeb · Jan 7, 2006

“Baldaena wrote:

“

“

“

“mm, ok, but look at your short duration buff and compare their drawbacks... almost all thses buff have drawbacks for guardians, You have sevelral ability without any drawbacks...We got 2 short duration buffs, one is 3 min down 3 min up drains 2% hp a tick for 907 physical mitigation(ad3), another that is 1296 physical mitigation (ad1) and stuns the bruiser for the entire duration (30sec). These are not drawbacks?, we also have a proc buff but its hardly worth casting as it expires in 5 hits with a 1 min recast (83 dmg a hit adept1)

[Repeat mode]
I don't speak especialy of Quarrel.
Look at ALL(once again, i have 2) your short durations buff and check their drawbacks...
- For guardians, all these buff have drawbacks (only ONE have none drawback) Both mine have drawbacks.
- Bruiser have several short duration buff without any drawbacks... plz look at your spellbook...
See above!

LOL, indeed it's great, thank you, you'r a genius... :smileywink:
And what if it was your ability which would damage your equipment ?
I'm sorry it's not fair...
I cant speak for any one else, but i would carry a pack of crap shields around for just this, cant tell you how many times i have had a the bruiser buff expire just because the mob decided not to cast for the next 30 seconds
yes, and with it, I plan to commit suicide... and you think it's normal ? me not, this ability is almost useless...
Once again if you would die anyway what does it matter if you die 30 seconds later? you might have time to save your group!.

Ok, Your right, it was maybe not the best example... but 100pt/40sec vs -30 crushing/slasling/etc (minus SIX levels in resists) is maybe balanced (but with 6 levels you have lesser resists with all your other ability (while soloing for example)... but I admit It's maybe balanced, It's hard to compare without any log file)
Well lets not forget the 19ish extra defense you buff, now the difference isn't actually that much (if this is how it works)

We need these buff in order to tank as well as any other fighter...:smileysad:
You really think other tanks don't use their buffs?

Great job, yes great job, thanks soe.”

”

But the question is not to ask a Bruiser's nerf... I only want to shed in light that guardians needs some love... 125th days of silence is a very hard punishment for Guardians'community...:smileysad:”

”

I'm sorry if I need to fight with you, bruiser are not my target, I have a friend who is playing a bruiser, he enjoys it and find the class realy wonderfull and I planned to play a bruiser when I had more time (so I don't want any nerf on it)...
I am not here to fight, but when you make false statements i will correct you :smileytongue:
what I want to point is that guardians need attention and not bruiser need nerf.There is better ways to do that than what you tried here. Bruiser are currently great (correct me if it's false) that why I think It's a good idea to look at Bruiser and try to determine what could improve us and change us into an enjoyable class.

If something make me angry, It's not bruiser, It's the silence of developers who avoids us since almost 130 days... The last developpers' post is "the famous unsung hero" post... I think guardians have the right to ask for more attention, more respect, more fun...
Well how the guardian community reacted to that post is probably partly the reason why there has not been many others.”

Please do research before you reply

ARCHIVED-mastersardis · Jan 7, 2006

If Devs post a slap-in-the-face response to the crushing blow they dealt to our class, then how should this community react? It should have been expected. This class (and others) were decimated by LU13. Every player has a right to protest those changes. Our $14.95 a month guarantees that.

ARCHIVED-Baldaena · Jan 8, 2006

“Dananeb wrote:

“Baldaena wrote:

“

“

“

“We got 2 short duration buffs, one is 3 min down 3 min up drains 2% hp a tick for 907 physical mitigation(ad3), another that is 1296 physical mitigation (ad1) and stuns the bruiser for the entire duration (30sec). These are not drawbacks?, we also have a proc buff but its hardly worth casting as it expires in 5 hits with a 1 min recast (83 dmg a hit adept1)
okey, I'have made a list :
- Quarrel, Close mind and Stone deaf : no Drawbacks (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I admit I'm not an expert in your class)
- Calloused skin, Deadly spirit : Drawbacks (stun or comsume your Hp)

Once again if you would die anyway what does it matter if you die 30 seconds later? you might have time to save your group!.
mmm, Even with less than 10% of hp, we have a chance to survive (as states by moorgard about extrem situations)and to be healed in time...when I use this ability I'm sure to die...the range of application of this ability is maybe not null but very very reduced, generaly Guardians don't even have this ability in their hotbar... please I would prefer to see you reaction on the difference and the range of application of the two abilities... die vs stiffle... is it balanced ?

Well lets not forget the 19ish extra defense you buff, now the difference isn't actually that much (if this is how it works)
Your right, It was late and I was tired (2:00), It reduces the chance of mobs to hit you (I've corrected my previous post). This ability allow you to virtualy reduce the chance to be hit by 8 levels (again 2 for guardians) with this ability you should be able to grey blue mob (even white I think)... these abilities where maybe balanced before LU13, but the range of colored mobs have been extensed and in the current situation our buff have very few impacts... but I agree that colors of mob are most important for bruiser than for gardians (I have a Fury and I have healed bruiser again blue/green and again yellow/orange.. the results are clearly differents) this ability is most important for your than for guardians... but I'm not sure that 2 levels is enough for us)

We need these buff in order to tank as well as any other fighter...:smileysad:
You really think other tanks don't use their buffs?
Fighter are balanced with all their permanent buff activated, guardians full self buffed is balanced again any other fighters full self buffed (I though it was the result of the Revamp, let me know if it's wrong)”

”

”

”

Well how the guardian community reacted to that post is probably partly the reason why there has not been many others.
It's a long time without any reactions, because of this ignorance, this silence, I'm maybe angry and deceived... I'm going to be honest : I'm jealous of bruiser because you have a lot of fun abilities and I want to see guardians as fun as Bruiser seems to be when I see your abilities.
As for any reflexion, we need to start our refexion somewere in order to see what we need... My current conclusion is:
- our utilities are mainly(only) self short duration buff with drawbacks => mainly useless when we are not MT
- our dps is ridiculous and we are useless in group/raid when we are not MT (few interest out of improve our self ability to tank)
- We are too quickly out of mana because we maintain agro only with taunts which can be resisted...
- we have few taunts, when their are resisted we have to wait for refresh (and our mana is consumed for free)... when one of your ability is resisted you can immediatly use another one on a different timer... I'm under the impression that you have more liberty in your reaction again resists... guardians have to wait for refresh of their taunts...
- our abilities are : buff, dps and taunt... we need more diversity (you can cure, heal, fd, fear for example) I agree it's the hard part (because in the balance equation, these abilities are given to only one class : for example : rez is for all healer but is given to one fighter (paladin) one mage (nec) and one scout (dirge), it's the same thing for heal (I don't speak about self heal but ability to heal others), for evac. An other example : all fighters have the ability to heal themselved (paladin can LH and heal, SK can Lifetap, Monk/bruiser can heal themselves and ber have regen) but guardians have nothing in this field... Some abilities have not been given to any fighters (for example, Track(reserved to scout ), mana regen(reserved to mage class and bard class), gate (reserved to cleric) and I'm sure there are other abilities currently not balanced... maybe we should look in these direction in order to give us more flavour, more diversity because I think the concept of "Pure/Best tank" is obsolet and we need to look at improving our role when not MT.”

Please do research before you reply
I always do research before reply, but I don't know any books about Bruiser, that why these boards and this thread exist :smileywink:”

Message Edited by Baldaena on 01-08-200601:59 AM
Message Edited by Baldaena on 01-08-200602:03 AM
Message Edited by Baldaena on 01-08-200602:04 AM
Message Edited by Baldaena on 01-08-200602:16 AM
Message Edited by Baldaena on 01-08-200602:18 AM

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