You want to see why Guardians have something to complain about?

Janaru wrote: Guardians seem to forget Brawlers get their taunts resisted just as much. Against group mobs we have ONE taunt and if it gets resisted any AoE class is toast. This whole thread is based off something that just isn't fact. Brawlers do NOT tank equaly. Single targets yes, but not group mobs. We give that up for DPS and utility. Goto the Warlock boards and ask how many prefer Brawlers as tanks.
Umm you should tell Moorguard about this so he can fix it... Oh wait he already did.

I know Guardians need help but rather then worry about what other classes have start looking at what you need fixed not what you don't have.

If people had done that in the begining then LU13 wouldnt have been nessisary.


Guardians get accused of wanting to return to godmode these days which is BS.

Fact is there are Brawlers out there coming here to derail our threads because they want the MT role AND Utility. If you want FAIR then you can either have DPS or Utility.. If you want BOTH then we get BOTH.
Message Edited by Warbird1 on 01-03-2006 02:01 PM

Umm FIGHTER is our ARchetype....How can you have played EQ2 for any period of time and not realize what ARchetype is? SK, Pally, Bruiser, Brawler, Zerke, Guard are all fighters...all members of the same archetype...therefore comparing any of those 6 is valid when discussing balance.

Besides all the months that Brawlers were crying for Guardian nerf..they sure seemed to think comparing themselves to Guards was valid =P

I agree. Guardians should be equal to the other fighters in all aspects, or LU13 was a lie. If SOE is going to ballance tanks, then they need to ballance all aspects of the fighter classes.

[EDIT] By the way, i dont see any guardians really pushing for a nerf to any other class. We dont want that, all we want is a little boost in the areas where we are lacking...prety much everywhere but tanking ability.
Message Edited by mastersardis on 01-03-2006 02:10 PM

"Fact is there are Brawlers out there coming here to derail our threads because they want the MT role AND Utility. If you want FAIR then you can either have DPS or Utility.. If you want BOTH then we get BOTH."

No I don't think Brawlers are coming here to debunk Guardians we(meaning I, I don't speak for others) just think compairing Brawlers to Guardians isn't a fair compairison. You seem to think we tank 100% as well as a Guardian and that is simple not true. You tank group mobs 10x better then any Brawler out there. Guardians complain about resists on taunts like they are the only ones having this problem. Again just not true. Samething goes for power. We run out just as fast. These aren't ALL Guardian problems, others deal with it also.

Again if you want DPS and utility then you give up your multi taunts to do it. You lose the ability to handle aggro on multi mobs. If thats the case then why even have subclasses. Lets all just be the same fighter wearing T6 crafted. Everyone knows Guardians need help with DPS but to think you should get the DPS and utility of a Brawler while maintianing your multi taunts (Single and group) is silly.

Again just cause we are all fighters doesn't make this a fair compairison. Compair youselves to the same subclass since zerks are the offencive "Warrior" and Guardian is the defencive "Warrior".

RafaelSmith chill you know I meant "subclass". I'm not going to bother with you, your whole sig shows me you are a whiner. Leave this thread to people who see the problem and want it fixed not someone looking to cry cause of it.

mastersardis and surprising enough the Brawlers are behind you on this. Guardians are broken and need fix. Most of the fighter classes need some form of love. The Brawlers are about as balanced as you get. We tank well for XP mobs, with good gear and master/Adept III we can tank a few raid mobs, we do good DPS for a fighter(But not near a true DPS class). But we also lack in areas like group incounters, streaks of hits that can drop us fast, limited taunts. We understand are limitation and live with it. It would be nice to have another group taunt not on the same timer as a Brawler but just cause a Guardian has it doesn't mean I'll write SOE asking for it.Guardians need a DPS boost, SK need something done with their taunts. Pallys aren't too bad but a better offencive stance weould help, Zerks well you don't heal them complain much so I'm guessing the are ok. I hear they can rank up near the top in DPS in group incounters but I don't play one nor know one so I just simple don't know. All fighters need something done about running out of power so fast.

My monk tanks group mobs and adding group mobs as easily as my guardian does. For either of them, if they have an AE taunt ready then it's no sweat to police adds. If they don't have an AE taunt ready, then advantage goes to the monk DPS in gathering in the adds. I suppose it's possible that my monks taunts are resisted, but I've never noticed a consequence. Having a 50% chance to auto-taunt with every hasted to the ceiling melee attack puts any taunt resist issue down in the noise. My monk, in 48 levels, has never been out of power, or even low on power, but I did use my manastone 5 times. Anyway, gonna have to call shenanigans on the claim that brawlers give up anything at all in order to enjoy a basic DPS set.
Spudge, 60 Gardianer
Spadge, 48 Monk

Junaru if your going to quote someone have the courtesy to define your source.
Secondly as of LU13 by Moorguards own words TANKS are now EQUAL. Saying they tank equally well in this context is the same as saying they are equal. If that were true then our DPS and Utility would be equal as well.

You only think your Monk tanks group mobs equally. Play a Ranger or Warlock and then you can tell me if a Brawler tanks group mobs as well.

Also you lack the knowledge of how procs work if you think your hate proc has a 50% chance to go off with every swing.

I wont be back to mess up your thread anymore. The simple statement of compairing your class to the same subclass seems pointless. Either you can't see it or don't want to either way it's no my problem.

Warbird1 you take Moorguards words literal and think he said "TANKS are now EQUAL" means ALL TANKS ARE THE SAME.

I play a few classes at T5/6. I suppose if it's only me thinking that the monk tanks well, then for my groups sake I better keep thinking that. Next time I log in the Gardener, I'm gonna think, "I r the DPS, I r the DPS, I r the DPS." Thanks for the tip, and I truely hope it works.
60 Gardener
52 Warlock
48 Monk
48 Conjuror

No I dont. All tanks are not the SAME.
But they are suppose to be equal in tanking ability IN HIS OWN WORDS.
Heres a post for you to read
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/...tfeed&message.id=16714&query.id=101252#M16714
Its pretty clear they want Fighter A to do the job just a well as Fighter B and Fighter C.
Guardian were pure tanks. We didnt have all the neat utilites the other classes had. Hey thats fine. LU13 comes around and they want all the fighters to tank as well as us, once again I say fine. But thats not what we got. What we got was all other fighters tanking as well as us now plus the DPS and utility to boot. You cant have it both ways. Either SOE allows there to be a single class that excells in just tanking or you give all fighter type similar utility and DPS. They are the ones that got themselves into this sticky situation not us. Brawlers complained they were not tanking as well as plate fine give them a booste.... nooo they just nerf us to hell and call it even. Well its not. We have gotton some attention and I see improvement and functionality back to the class. And what do we have now? We already have people griping that guardian are in godmode again.


Message Edited by Warbird1 on 01-04-2006 11:52 AM

Most people who complain about the "godmode" guardians had do not realize that it was only attainable by a select few high end raid guild guardians. Were we better overall tanks? Yes. Godmode? Indestructable? Taunt once and go AFK? No way.
On the flip side, brawler classes needed a boost. Not because Guards were so great, but Brawlers were not working correctly.
So in stead of fixing a bug with the guardians, and improving the tanking abilities of the brawler, we had to have LU13.
Brawlers complained, Brawlers got fixed. Now guardians are complaining...

Just curious, is the same normalization that is applied to weapons also applied to that proc? I'm willing to bet LU#18 nerfed it as well. If it's been effected like other class stances, it 's possible that it will only proc with the primary weapon now (no difference for 2H, but half the proc rate for DW).

I read this and thought what an utter line of B.S. this is for an argument. So we have the ability to AoE taunt and because of that we should remain in the 1/2 of 1% shine tank for the game?

I am glad your content with the bruiser fixes (yes play one of those to and not to 20) but this line of aargument is CRAP

Rahge

The fact is that Bruiser rely on the damage they do as part of their taunt, if you raised the Guardian damage to a similiar level and didn't remove the taunts you would end up with a HUGE difference in agro controll in favor of the guardian.

I say give the Guardian a damage proc similiar to the Bruiser skill Quarrel but just a negative effect allowing the Guard to use some of the skills that also add threat when in a dps situation.

f

I said I wasn't going to post again but I felt I needed to point this out. This is what I am talking about. The difference between Warriors and Bralwers is NOT huge, the difference between Guardians DPS and Brawler DPS might be BUT.... Zerks can out DPS a Brawler with group mobs. This is why I say compair yourself to Zerks not Brawlers. Your own subclass is perfectly fine and does it's job well yet you seem to disregard that completely and feel the need to wonder why you don't do the DPS or have the utility of Brawlers.. You act like Brawlers are Gods of DPS and Utility yet other fighter classes out DPS us and other fighter classes have more utility then us or atleast the same depending on how you look at it.

And as for pulling aggro from the tank. Come on man Rogues can do this anytime they want to ANY tank. Warlocks and Wizards also.

Here is a thread that has Zerk DPS over Brawler DPS.
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=17621

Junaru wrote: And as for pulling aggro from the tank. Come on man Rogues can do this anytime they want to ANY tank. Warlocks and Wizards also.


Umm were talking about fighter agro not other classes.
Secondly its as valid for us to compare our DPS to brawlers as it was Brawlers to compare their tanking abilites to Guardians.

Message Edited by Warbird1 on 01-05-2006 07:29 AM

Can I get a witness?
Testify go preach it on the mountain brother Warbird!
Rahge

Game, set, and match to RafaelSmith :smileyhappy: