You want to see why Guardians have something to complain about?

Salgore posted this link in another thread and I thought it was worth of it's on thread. Based on all fighters being balances which was the goal of LU13 I demand Guardiand recieve the same flexiability as show in this link:

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=10226

Dear Santa,
Next year for Christmas i want...
Wow...just wow. After seeing that, how can Guardians be even remotely "balanced"?

I find it very weird that their offensive stance increases physical and poison mitigation. Kind of wish I where a bruiser right now.

Its not the offensive stance its a mixed/solo stance. But yeah its been said before your off stance needs work as is at the moment it really doesnt offer up alot of a solo/dps upgrade. Comparing yourselves to similar classes is fine imho.

The reason people classify gaurds as whiners is because most posts literally just point to other classes and cry w/o any specific or constructive feedback on issues and ideas. I use to post a list of specific abilites/changes for guardian abilites that needed to get fixed and many of them had. although not all of them or exactly how it was suggested on these boards. In fact the only real constructive thread imho in the guard forum was the list of suggested issues by raahl. If you want to fix your class, (even though it is not broken) then provide a list of specific skills and the issues relative to them. sarcastic and whining posts will not get a devs attention. Because really half the people here don't like to read the same bull why would a dev want to read it? I will get the list we had previously to show what has been addressed and what still needs to be. I have taken an extended break from eq2 so i have not played my guard, bruiser, warden much. The 1 time a week i log to help w raiding usually i just play a bard (troubador) for raids since they rock and basically eliminate the need for enchanters =p. Imho enchanters are so destroyed atm. Bards provide so many more useful buffs for the groups and provide a decent dps boost. You cna tailor entire groups around bards. Not a jab at them i liek playing them thier great, i think enchanters need to get the love back though (my coercer needs love).

edit actually i am nto going to look for the suggestion post going to get some alcohol for New Years party.
1) Basically i think guards off stance needs some tweakage to add more dps to be effective fro soloing and offtanking maybe in small xp groups where u jus twant to grind and are not taking alot fo dam.

2) taunts need not be resisted but instead mitigated (for example instead of doing 1k hate increase it will do 500 hate when mitigated) this will allow for more skill and control on agro then just waiting for a tautn to land. also it will remove the whole multiple mob issue where one mob resists and runs to the healer one gets tuanted and goes to the fighter etc and you still have to wait for the full recast.

3) And i still think ToS needs to have the shield damage removed its not as as though its an overpowering skill.

i am sure you gusy cna think of other direct and specific issues.
Message Edited by Gungo on 12-30-2005 11:37 AM

so u are complainin that someone else does more damage then u? so if that the case then as a brigand i want to heal since clerics can do that better then me, but then again i am a dps and they are healers...u are the ultimate DEFESIVE tank and are not an offensive tank like brusier or berserker. this is like a berserker askin for more defensive and givin a link to all off guardians skills and sayin this is why i am complaining. a person cannot compare different classes as a based on complaining. a person can complain if a skill doesnot work or the animation is broken about his class. every class has it strengths and weakness.

Wow...we are one sad class...

Good for the bruisers though, looks like they got some fun stuff they can do out there.
I know a guild bruiser of mine, he can put out 8000+ damage in one attack at level 58.
On a really good day I can use my Blast Adept III and I get over 1000 in damage and I feel cool.

I made level 58 yesterday and my god, I will have to take 2 weeks off from that toon. First-off it
took me hours to find a group to get the last 9% experience points needed. Yes I am aware of
it being a holiday week, however Unrest server load yesterday at around 15:00 was actually
medium so more peeps than usual were signed on.

Ended up finding a group for someone that needed tokens, killing Coin guards with a level 50 & 49
warlock and level 45 templar (of course I lost agro continuously with Maddening Defense, Reinforcement
@ Adept III on, plus the reoccuring Adept III Deafen and Protect spell spamming).

I cannot describe how boring this toon is! He is incapable of taking down even the weakest mobs if I have more than 1 green add (heroic or weaker) at level 57 I usually get perpared to run.

This is a true story from this weeks Monday...

Four (pulled 1 and 3 popped around me) Rujarken Highway men at level 47-48 (vs my 57 toon) single down and one heroic with no up arrow almost killed me . Stunned, stiffled, and slowly chipped away my health, until I had to yell and run from the last 2 mobs. Was able to retreat to area by croc caves with 121 points of health and no power left.)
There was witnesses to this embarrasing scene which took a good 8 minutes, I am not making this up.

My guard is of course wrapped in all legendary gear, about 35 plat worth of it which makes a difference only when grouped with healer.

Anyway, that little group in Maj Dul failed as I was NOT able to hold agro against the warlocks 7+ levels below me or even the templar (yes, I used Aussage). I was finally able to get the last 1% xp from a collection quest piece which helped me ding.

Also, yesterday I pulled a blue con group of 2 orcs (^^) with a 58 Templar, while waiting for the Swashbuckler to come back from LD after zoning out of the Roost. Using Offensive Stance and DW cobalt imbued weapons it took close to 4 minutes to kill each mob. That was with the Templar de-buffing the mob.

So now that I am level 58. What do I have to look forward to? Tower of Stone and my two stances that I will have to shell 6 plat out for to make them useful. No high damage attack, still no utility, nothing that will numb the PAIN of soloing even by a bit.

I would like to add at this point that the high damage attacks are very misleading on the EQ2 players page. (http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/classes/index.vm?classId=3), the guardian has NO high damage attack. The descriptions should get updated sometime.

I know that I simply CANNOT SOLO ANYTHING in the DoF expansion pack zones except green crocs, crypt mummies, and dune spiderlings, and MAYBE, if I time the pops right, then MAYBE some green heroic Rujarkan Highway men.

Although I might be able to take down a yellow triple-down I know that it would take me 10 minutes to kill and another 3 minutes to rest up again. I don't need to tell you how long it would take to level to 59 killing green Rujarkan heroics, you all know that it would be 2026 before I make it to 59 on those.

Does the guardian suck many ask! As someone who did not purchase this game for raids alone I have to say
"HELL YES!!!" My guardian sucks balls, lots and frequently!!!

The ONLY time I have found him to be sort ok is as MT in an DoF instance XP group with 2 healers.
Why only sort of? He burns through power like mad trying to keep agro, requiring lengthy rests between pulls.
We tax the healers enough that one healer simply is not enough against yellow or orange con mobs to keep us
alive.

Small groups are not for us because of our DPS punishment we have to have for some reason, was it my Protect spell?!?

We definitly cannot solo as I mentioned. We have NO UTILITY other than mediocre (at best!) agro management.

Why I am writing this? Why don't I just roll another toon?!? I put 7 months into my guardian to get to level 58.
It is hard to just give up on all that plat and spent time. I remain hopeful or perhaps just dumb enough to expect SoE to make something good and fun out of this level 58 spare tire.

I did not have alts pre-LU13. Now I have 5. The two classes my guild can use are out of vitality. All alts are a LOT more fun that my main.

Yes, I am sure that Sniperkitty will slot me into the whiner category, I wish I cared. As immature and cute in his attempts of derailing little Sniper is, the kid brings up one good point: The game is supposed to be fun. It is currently not fun for a guardian.

Not all of us have the time available to invest to re-roll start over before the next expansion pack comes out.
So, to wrap this up, Guards are not ok! Not by a long shot!

Sniperkitty, go roll a guardian or shut up on this forum. You do not know what you are talking about, even though you think you may!

Gaige, respectfully, Guards need much more than a slight DPS increase to make us unbroken and somewhat fun.
I have grouped with high level monks, we are not even close to balanced.

In regards to the Guardian server population: Our guild used to have six of use. Now there is two, with one being active, me. The other rolled a ranger and brought him to high 50's after LU-13.
The unhappy Guardian posting may be a minority, the unhappy guardian is not!

SOE, since we have heard not a word from you in regards to the issue of the guardians. Can you please make the XP potions tradeable own on individual account basis? The vitality penalty is a joke in the lower levels, as I lost all mine on alts within 1 hour of gameplay from level 3-6. If I am expected to re-roll another toon to enjoy this otherwise very cool your game can you not help us here?

I would be happy with a /class-respec as well. Any class out there MUST be more fun than a guard. Heck I would even let you decide which class i should be. Maybe a Froglok Troubadour or something, or an Ogre Chanter, or...

Antedeluvian - 58 Guard (Zzzz)
Ganesh - 26 Wizard (about to be out of vit again)
Antediluvian - 21 Ranger (about to be out of vit again)
Illuminatus - 30 Mystic (out of vit)
Canute - 8 Scout (out of vit)

Edited for grammar and coherence!
Message Edited by StGeorg on 12-30-2005 12:06 PM
Message Edited by StGeorg on 12-30-2005 12:17 PM

Gungo:

Thanks for the excellent suggestions.

1) More DPS(decent increase overall, major increase when not MT)
2) Hate gain from Taunts mitigated in stead of ressited outright (1/2 hate generated on resist)
3) ToS damage removed completely(because its a bad idea to destroy a non-consumable item with a general skill)


Fre'do:

We are not complaining that we don't DPS like a scout class. We're complaining that another fighter class gets more DPS than we do. Yet we tank equally. They can heal themselves, we cant. They get FD, we dont. They get invis, we dont. They get stun, stifle, mez, etc, and we dont. They get safe fall, we dont.

And as to a Berserker asking for the same defense as a Guard, they already have it!! Tanking is now equal!!. What's the point of being the most defensive tank, if every other tank in the game is going to have the exact same tank ability?

Asking for a brigand to heal like a cleric is absurd. Scout class vs healer class. Comparing Brawler DPS to Warrior DPS is still fighter to fighter. If tanking is equal, and it is according to SOE, the all the other parts of the equasion need to ballance as well.

Right now they don't. So we complain.

fre'do wrote: so u are complainin that someone else does more damage then u? so if that the case then as a brigand i want to heal since clerics can do that better then me, but then again i am a dps and they are healers...u are the ultimate DEFESIVE tank and are not an offensive tank like brusier or berserker. this is like a berserker askin for more defensive and givin a link to all off guardians skills and sayin this is why i am complaining. a person cannot compare different classes as a based on complaining. a person can complain if a skill doesnot work or the animation is broken about his class. every class has it strengths and weakness.


Ummmm no... No to basically your whole post.
It was Moorguard and who stated that POST LU13 all figthers were suppose to tank equally.
Tanking is more than just dependant on one issue.

Taunts
Damage
HP
Manna
CA's
Gear
Avoidance
Mitigation
Buffs



All these things and more affect a fighters tanking ability. Guardians had mitigation cut over half, avoidance cut over half. We had almost all the secondary effects on our taunts and CA's taken off. It is only fair to compair our CA's and Buffs to other fighters to see how we stack up because that infulences tanking abilities.
Even just looking at utility the Bruiser has for more and IMO that makes them unbalanced compaired to us.

Weather or not a CA or Buff works correctly is a game mechanics issue not a class balancing issue.

And yet we had an entire CU dedicated to fixing the buff stacking bug that made the Guardian class a better tank. All other tank classes ('cept mebbe SK) got a boost, Guardians got the shaft.

So basically, i pay $14.95 a month to watch SOE's kneejerk reactions to minor issues and bugs. Priceless.

Can any level 60 guardians out there with full Adept III / Master 1 spell upgrades do a similar post to Stroicthe's post linked in the OP? That way everyone can compare the two side-by-side and see exactly what the guardian community is talking about.
Message Edited by Burninghope on 12-30-2005 01:24 PM

TUUUUNA..... Tuna man.
Do da post Burning hope mentioned.

I'm waiting for my last few CA's to get adept 3's. I have orders out for them and should get them in a couple of days. If I can find the time, I actually do like to play wth my friends, I'll try and post something like that. I'll have to get my wife to show me how to host it and everything.
I spend a ton of time harvesting. That's why I have all the CA's adept 3. My friends are wrong coasters and I'm west coast so we only get to play a couple hours together.

Sadly, I dont think there are many Guardians with the recources, let alone the desire to spend that much on a broken class

Took my Guardian out for a spin last night for the first time in months. Asside for Rediculous taunt resists, (And I mean Adept III taunts being resisted 2-3 times in a row against blue/green mobs). I have noticed alot of improvement.

Power consumption was way down. I dont know if anything changed, or if it is just that I have absolutely given up on using MY CA's in a serious manner.

All was well, and I was happy. Until my group disbanded. I was left cold and alone to solo until bed time. Worst hour of my life ever.

My bard can kill blue heroic encounters faster than my guard can kill a single up arrow solo encounter.

Hell, every 5 minutes, my monk can one shot a straight con. Takes me atleast a minute to kill a straight con, and then another minute to recover.

Our DPS is insulting. You might as well change out protection line to heals/wards and call us Battle Priests. To add insult to injury, I'm sure theres got to be at least one priest class that can out damage us.

I would absolutely play my guard again if I had any other options besides being MT in a group.
Message Edited by Vandileir on 12-30-2005 05:00 PM

Have you not read the 900 threads in this forum?

Mainly the one rhall made that's stickyed on top of the forum?

Monks and Brusiers have mid-stances. I cannot speak for Brusiers, but my Monk gains half the haste and offensive skills when in mid-stance that are in my offensive and we also gain roughly half the mitigation and resists that our defensive stances have. This is balanced, we need our haste (Monks) and damage procs (Brusiers) to hold aggro as well as we do and our mitigation is utter crap in offensive. It's a nice, balanced mid stance to give us more potions.

As for that comment about putting out 8000+ Damage in one attack, did you fail to look at the Brusier combat arts? Yes, they are powerful but none do 8000+ damage. What you're seeing is a Bloodline Chronicles quest / faction reward spell for Brawlers called Devastation Fist.

This attack can only be used once every 5 minutes, and stifles the Brawler for 8 seconds thereafter. It inflicts 100% of the target's health in crushing damage provided the mob has no up arrows and is not Epic. It's great for knocking out a solo mob or a regular add in a heroic group, nothing more. This CA will hit for the full ammount of the target's health, so yes, it can hit over 8000, but it is a skill you have to work for as a Brawler.
Message Edited by Supernova17 on 12-30-2005 02:33 PM

Thanks Wasuna for the link. Now, it' obvious that brawlers are good at damage and decent in defense. We guardians need to be as good at defense and decent at damage. The gap between guards and bruisers is way too large.

Rustan (guard 56) Lavastorm

My reason for posting the link wasn't to start a flame war between warriors and brawlers. My intention was to show that the brawler class has the "versatility" that we as the Guardian class do not. Oh yeah...and it looks like they have that "fun factor" that we have been missing for some time now. I'm glad that the Bruiser class can do 8k damage to a solo type mob and that they have all the mez's and fears...great. I am happy for you...sounds like fun. Sounds like you can bring something to a group when not the MT.
Before the update, I would say hey but you gave up a lot of tanking for this flexibility just as Guardians gave up a lot of flexibility for the edge in tanking. This is no longer the case. All fighter tank equally now (more or less). The same cannot be said about utility and dps. You cannot say that all fighters have the same utility and dps (more or less). The gaps are enormous....we are in completely different leagues. We are still at Pre Update 13 levels while tanking has changed significantly.
There is no preferred sub-class for MT anymore at least for XP groups. If anything...Guardians would be the least desireable XP tank which has been explained in numerous other threads. Therefore, Guradians like other fighters need to be able to fill that secondary roll as off-tank with dps, utility, etc..
Will this basically make us all one sub-class with little to no flavor? I don't care anymore. I didn't choose this path, SOE did. So I am just asking the Devs to make our class viable again.

Nope. Many Guardian threads start out quite in a reflective manner calling for input or ideas. Then as many here will also tell you, they are hijacked by the usual suspects, who are often non Guardians and totally derailed and end up into a slanging match and pointing of fingers. I have also seen your name in some of these threads.
I think Guardians are quite a reasonable bunch when left to themselves.
Considering the link that was just posted, I think Guardians have every and are within every right to ask why is there such a massive discrepancy.

As alchemist i went through creating all fighter skills from t1 to t6 and from comparing them the guardian skills stand out as the most pathetic by far. There seems to be no identity to that class at all. It's just the plain archetype never developed into anything else. Basically a placeholder for some fighterclass that has yet to be defined.
It affects me as tradeskiller since crafting guardian skills gives no feeling of accomplishment and especially when working for guildies it feels like wasting a rare.
I suggest going through all the fighterskills yourself so you guys are not surprised by a post like that and then start asking for skills that really reduce the disparity.
The minor improvements i see you all asking for are ridiculous when compared to the status quo of other fighter classes.