You want to see why Guardians have something to complain about?

Minion just posted them, and a nice breakdown on them as well.
Sniper,
It's ok to have 2 healers in a group. It will allow a group to tank on much harder content. Healing overlaps. DPS overlaps. Tanking does not. That's what we are asking for. A secondary role in a group where we are not MT.

Wow.... even as a berserker looking at that.
We can beat them in AOE though :smileywink:

For those interested in seeing a Guardian Spell screenshot breakdown of our skills, checkout this post here...
Guardian Spell Breakdown -- In response to the Bruiser spell screenshots...

someone wrote

I am Guardian and I can double the damage our group takes by using my l33t “protection” skills! I can root, snare, debuff and cripple myself in 12 different ways, and explode my heart too!

sad..

I think you Guardians have some issues that need fix.. ffs

Ok my main is 60 assassin and i think we had it bad in the dps chain but that is not true any more and i feel that Guards need alittle luv from the devs
btw lv up my pally now he is at lv 46 and wow i think his dps suxors but then again got some utility in the name of heals and rez and stuff so i know i can contribute some even when i´m sec tanking...

i also read that someone said "well 500hp buffs +17 percing.... isn´t that bad" all i have to say is.. well MOST classes have grp buffs, all fighterclasses have grp buffs so that puts that out of contributing when not MTing.. I can´t come up with 1 reason why i would have a guard as second if i´m tanking with my pally... rather have any other fighter class since then most of em do decent/great dps compared to me..

This is a real deal issue.. since guards in grp only have 1 spot they are wanted in were other fighterclasses are more versale.. point = less chance to get into a grp

And i don´t even wanna compare soloability.. I know my squishi little ratonga assassin can´t take any damage but i still can kill a lv 55-57^^^ heroic mobs with not too much effort involved and NO i´m not assassinating them

what i´ve seen on the skill trees of the Guard there is not much in there for solo...

Dananeb wrote:
Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:
Stuns, Stifles and Interrupts: (we have no stifles)

Bruiser:
--------------------------------
Stun: Kidney Punch (4 sec stun 60 sec recast, and only usable from rear or flanking position)Stun: Barbarous Stomp (2 sec stun 30 sec recast)Stun: Uppercut (4 sec stun 60 sec recast)Stun: Iron Fist (4 sec stun 30 sec recast)Stun: Unnerve (this is a mez and cancelled when the mob is damaged)Stifle: Devastation Fist (stifles the brawler not the mob, also only usable on solo mobs)
Interrupt: Sonic Fists (Minimum range 10m)Interrupt: Abuse (this is a group encounter interrupt btw, like the one they took away from us, remember it?)(Our AE taunt)
None of the stuns of course will hit epics so they are just damage attacks against epics. So in any given combat the bruiser can stun a mob for 20 seconds out of 60 seconds and in the same period interrupt 3 times if tanking and 4 times if he runs to min range with Sonic fists.
I am not going to think for 1 second that you spam all of your stuns and interrupts, that would simply show everyone here just how badly you understand your character now wouldn't it? To be fair, we only have 3 but they are on faster recast timers, but to get to the real point here, who cares if your stuns only work for 2-4 seconds, our stun is the same and Confront (interrupt) is a single target taunt. The real purpose for them is to stop a casting mob from completing a spell and nailing you or your group, just as ours. Since you have more of them, you do not need to manage your CA's when tanking a caster as we need to (mainly solo and small groups). It is possible for us to actually have our 3 abilities offline as it were and have no way for us to interrupt/stun/stifle a caster if we are not careful. Since you have more of them to choose from, it seems to me that you should have more time to concentrate on tanking and DPS output to maintian agro.
Simply put, if we actually wait for the smoke to appear around the feet or lightning to form inbetween a casters hands when it is casting, we will 1. Loose agro because we are not taunting as much as we need to to keep it, 2. Are not using our pathetic CA's to kill it as fast. Because of this, in a group I do not waste time looking for the signs. I will use an ability if the situation permits, but usually will keep on going with my normal routine to maintain agro and let the healer keep me up, but I try to remain flexible depending on what we are fighting.
You, on the otherhand, have more abilities to stop that caster from finishing its spell allowing you more opportunity to keep your agro generation going full speed. Granted, not all of them are usuable in every situation, I understand this. Thank you for giving a more thorough explanation of your abilities, but you still have more opportunities to prevent that mob from casting than we do.
The big difference between us is in regular ole XP groups. With you as the Tank, a non-casting mob is stunned for 20 seconds out of a minute , and (if my math is correct) about 12 seconds when we are tanking and actually using those abilities. So, if the mob is stunned longer with you tanking, then it is attacking less. If it is attacking less, then it has fewer chances to hit you, which means that you require less healing overall than we do, which means YOU are still the more effective (power and healing wise) tank in a regular old XP group. You are more sought after for XP grind groups than we are, You have more utility then we do, you can still stun that mob longer than we can when you are not tanking, and THAT is what almost every Guardain has been saying since LU-13! Thanks for making our point for us.
Sure Gaurdians are still the preferred raid MT, but like has been said before, that is because that is what most guilds "have always done" and is now a habit but is no longer required.

Yes, this is true. Guardians are mainly the raid MT because raid/guild leaders are reluctant to change what already has been, not because other fighters are substandard tanks. Other fighters don't really get much of a go because of this preconception.

Go visit the SK forums, there's a long thread there about how an SK successfully and reliably tanked Terrorantula and all the SKs are thrilled. Not because SK's were never able to tank Terror, but because the raid leader actually gave the SK a go....

Our MT's are all mainly Berzerkers and they tank in any group or any guild raid just fine.
Message Edited by Ladicav on 01-02-2006 12:38 AM

Has anyone asked for Guardians to be the new Ranger??? NO. All that has been asked is that we get comparable DPS / Utility as other TANK classes. Since ther complaint of not being able to tank as well as a gaurdian has been fixed for months.
Dont go into the you get to where plate and brawlers only leather. In defencive stance wearing all Legenday t6 rare armor, and the same jewlry, my Guardian had 21 less mistagation then a brawler and ~9 % less avodance. Not to mention she still did more damage. ( yes ca's where all adept 3 except one guardian spell that was master)

can we get sniperkitty banned from these boards? at least when gaige comes here he usually has something valid to say.

Message Edited by Dananeb on 01-02-2006 07:56 AM

Dananeb:
Sure Gaurdians are still the preferred raid MT, but like has been said before, that is because that is what most guilds "have always done" and is now a habit but is no longer required. Its not what is being said here though.
Everything you said in reply to my post weas about what I expected it to be, we tank pretty equally, but this last comment you made...
You refer to 1 thread about Guardians tanking Terrorantula to refute what I said about guilds not letting other fighters tank because they are reluctant to try anything new and different? I fail to see your point. Just because Guardians have tanked 1 mob means exactly what? If things are working the way the Devs say they are, then anyone should be able tank any mob. It is just that some classes may have an easier time of it than others due to class specialties such as Pallies and SKs being able to tank a caster better than any other due to thier higher wisdom for better saves.
Message Edited by a6eaq on 01-02-2006 08:54 AM

Yes i linked a thread about tanking Terrorantula, but what is also said in the specific post i linked was that Guardians are the best option for raid tanking. Meaning sure if the guard fails you look at the logs and see if you need a more specialized fighter. Its not becuase people refuse to let anyone else tank, its because of the skill set that the guard have that make them the better choice in most sitiuations. And sure when things get trivial for the raid force you start letting others have a go at it ( your SK tanking Terror etc.)

Ah, I missed Daxx's comment the first time I read the thread. But Daxx is a Guardian afterall, what do you think he would say? And even though he was the first 60 Fighter worldwide, that does not make him the hands down expert on the game. It means he grinded his way to 60. Nothing wrong with that at all, just not my cup of tea. Anyway, just because he stated it doesn't make it fact. I have noticed several guilds starting to use Zerkers and Pallies as Raid MTs. We are all suppoed to be able to tank now, so if a Guardian is out front, maybe the guild is slow to change or maybe the qualiy of player is better in the Guardian. There are countless reasons why Guardians are still the preferred MT. The only way to totally change that way of thinking is to nerf the bejesus outta us Guardians again, and i for one don't want to ever see the nerf bat again!:smileywink:
Message Edited by a6eaq on 01-02-2006 11:09 AM

Daxx also plays a 60 Bruiser

So what. Are you basing your entire belief system on one persons belief/opinion? I could care less if Daxx plays one of every fighter, he is not and never will be the class defining decision maker for all of us. It is his opinion and that does not a fact make.
Message Edited by a6eaq on 01-02-2006 06:00 PM

I would trust someone who plays both classes to be the better judge yes.

Ok, that is your opinion and you have every right to it. I cannot take one players opinion of who the best tank is considering there are not supposed any best tank anymore reguardless of how many fighters he plays. There might actually be someone else out there that plays multiple fighters that has another opinion but doesn't post.
If he is correct and Guardians are still the best tank, then I guess we will have more nerfing coming down the pipeline. Oh well... /shrug. Let's keep playing and try to have as much fun as the game will allow as it currently stands.

not to further this flame thread but people who think guilds only use guardians because they are use to a gaurd tanking it is complete bull. My guild had 1 guard who quit right after lu-13. We used our fully t6 legendary/fabled shadowknight and guild leader to tank and another bruiser in guild w the same quality of gear. I took over that gaurds account and started to lvl him. When i stopped playign a bit our guild leader and shadowknight took over the account and finished him to 60 and got him fully fabled and full master spells. The reason was not because we are use to guardians tanking it was because guardians are Better raid tanks. That same shadowknight would wipe in Gates on some mobs but with our guardian we win. He now plays the guard full time. Not because he doesnt like his Sk its because the gaurd is a better and more reliable tank. This is not saying gaurd don't have problems. (I think soloing is pretty slow and pathetic for a guard), but don't lie to yoursleves saying guilds use an lesser tank only because they are use to it. Guilds raid to win.

also about the taunt resist issue now that we can see taunt resist on spells. Having a master taunt is infinitly more important now that we know what a huge improvement master spells have on resist and hate generation.

Guardians seem to forget Brawlers get their taunts resisted just as much. Against group mobs we have ONE taunt and if it gets resisted any AoE class is toast. This whole thread is based off something that just isn't fact. Brawlers do NOT tank equaly. Single targets yes, but not group mobs. We give that up for DPS and utility. Goto the Warlock boards and ask how many prefer Brawlers as tanks.

If you want DPS then SOE should replace a few of your multi taunts you have with some DPS skills.

I know Guardians need help but rather then worry about what other classes have start looking at what you need fixed not what you don't have.

To me this whole thread is compairing apple to oranges. Sure we are all fighters but thats the only thing in common. Find your local L60 Zerk and get him to post his 47+ skills and compair yourself to him. Don't compair yourself to a Brawler who is NOT in your archetype. I don't worry about the fact that Guardians have multi taunts they can use and I only have two (single and group) even though both classes have the same problem with resists.

Again, guardians need to be fixed but giving them the same DPS as a Brawler while maintianing their group taunts is not a fair fix.