Why I think RoK factioning is basically unfair to pure crafters.

Invis, why didn't I think of that? Hmmmm, could it be that invis doesn't work when the mob is more than 10 levels above you? Oh yes, that is it
MY little adventure level 39 rat coercer/ crafting level 80 jeweler has had invis forever and has never encountered a situation where it works in a tier above his current adventure level. I started him harvesting when he was about level 24 and he now probably has the highest kill/death ratio on his server.
My adventure level 75 high elf mystic/ crafting level 80 provisioner doesn't have invis (well she does carry totems for dungeons) has no problem whatsoever harvesting since I keep her adventure level high enough for her current harvesting needs.
Why do I prefer to use my little rat to harvest? Simple, he is lucky. My mystic is extremely unlucky, has been for over 3 years. She can't find a rare to save her life. Rat not only finds rare harvests, he finds rare sparklies too. So guess who is my primary harvester?
But guess what? For all his effort and deaths on behalf of my crew of crafters he still needs to do an ungodly amount of faction writs to get his well deserved recipes. My mystic just picks them up on her way through a zone with no extra effort. Which was given the gold? Which one was given the remains of the gold mine after the gold was removed and handed over to the other one? Hmmmmm, maybe she is the lucky one after all

There is an "easy" way to resolve this.

They put a crafting Sokokor quest line in that has flags for XP level/crafting level and you hail a different NPC in order to do the quest. Why not put in a "Artisan Taskmaster" in BW, Riliss and Danak with the same flags? That taskmaster can hand out a different set of writs to the pure crafting toons that give more faction per writ. And for the "adventurer uber alles" snobs it won't be a picnic doing the Sokokor quest, the faction fixing quests and then running a level 20 templar around Kunark to get the Sokokor posts to be able to get to these places.

Lateana@The Bazaar wrote:

Hmm, guess that's what I get for not tuning into every balance tweak that happens. Last time I tried it, it did work... Of course the last time I tried it was a little over 2 years ago.

And hey, I believe I did mention something about it not being trivial in any case. Like I say, I'd just like to see crafters get a little something to liven up the monotony. I didn't anticipate that people would be so attached to the writ grind as to want it sped up (and to be given an even greater incentive to be bored to tears) rather than see it given an alternative, however lame that alternative may (also) be. My bad.
BTW Qandor, I actually agree that the faction as set is unfair to pure crafters. I just tend to disagree about the extent and about the solution. Some believe the solution's to add value to the writs; I believe the answer is to limit the extent to which writ grinding is necessary to the pure crafter in the first place. Ultimately, though, I think most of us who crafted before it was 'fashionable' for adventurers are on the same page, generally speaking.

Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

Some did level adventurers to help get an easier ride with crafters. It is a lot quicker harvesting around gray mobs than it is red.

The fact is, pure crafters can get these recipes faster than a hybrid. A hybrid has to level both adventurer and crafter. The crafter gets the appropriate level, loads up with resources and grinds out those writs while leveling in crafting, getting both the crafting and the faction at the same time. Its not as fast as doing the city writs, but it is faster than leveling up the adventurer to do the quests then leveling up the crafter to take advantage of them.

If those adventure quests that granted faction granted crafting xp, then you would have a valid complaint. Until then, it is faster for a pure crafter starting at 70 to get these recipes than it is a hybrid.

Qandor wrote:

I'm sorry, but what are you complaining about? You say that an adventurer got the faction for FREE??? Thats a load of B.S. Granting recipes to high level adventures because they did nothing???
Well...while you 'slogging' along doing your writs in the safety of the town, an adventurer was out there dealing with quest lines that took FAR more time than a few faction writs did. Not to mention the fact that the adventurer had to pay attention to his faction so it doesn't lower too much with one faction while gaining faction with another (Bathezids and Riliss for example).
Adventer Crafters did earn these recipes JUST as much as a 'pure' crafter. So if there is anyone who's being a snob, it's the Pure crafter that feels they should be different than the Adventure Crafter.

My main's a hybrid, and I do see the OPs point. When RoK launched I was cap 70/70, and ignored my adventuring to get my crafting to the new cap first. To do this I ground writs for Rillis, BW, and Danak.

When the TS epic came out, I was a nearly 7k faction short with BW to get the quest. I opted to do two 5k adventurer quests to get the faction, rather than grind the writs, because I felt it would be faster.

From my log, I hailed Danelak Hosfoak at 1pm PST and he refused to give me the quest. At about 2pm I start hailing other BW NPCs for quests, and at 2:14 I'm hailing Outriders and Sarnak conscripts. The next time I hailed Danelak Hosfoak, and got the quest, was 2:26pm PST.

From the boards, I posted my inability to get the quest at 1:33 pm PST, and my final faction which got me the quest at 2:26 pm.

Actual time working on the faction as an adventurer was under 30 minutes, including hailing NPCs to get and turn in the quest.

In 30 minutes, even at an incredible speed of 5 minutes per writ, I would have gotten 6 writs done. At 750k faction per, that's 4.5k faction. Less than the faction from doing one adventurer quest, and I was able to do two of those at once.

Are all the adventure quests as simple as hail a handful of NPCs and get faction? Of course not. Most of them have you killing stuff. But the advantages for the adventurer are still blatantly clear. For the most part they get a larger chunk of faction per quest, and an adventurer can work on several of them simultaneously. Additionally, they have variety.

Crafting writs can only be done one at a time, and will always and forever be the same thing over and over again. It's simply a reality of crafting, one I accept, or I would never have ground out the 30k faction I needed for the mannequin, considering I was already a lvl 80 ww.

Is the faction gain imbalanced in the adventurer's favor? Absolutely, and I took full advantage of that to get my TS epic. And yeah, I probably would have been frustrated if crafting was on a separate faction than adventuring. That doesn't mean I don't see the need for balance - either adventurer and crafter faction gains need to be comparable, or adventurers and crafters need to be on different factions.

And if anyone wants to point out risk vs reward for adventurers vs crafters, I would like an explanation of how dodging wandering kos mobs to speak to a handful of NPCs is any more risky than dodging wandering kos mobs in order to harvest. The higher-risk adventurer options also grant more coin reward than the crafter writs, so there's already a reward bonus for them built in anyway.

Rashaak wrote:

Hadn't planned on responding to this thread again but I can't pass this one up.
I did those adventure questlines you talk about on 3 characters, all now level 80 adventurers. Not only did it move fairly quickly and help level my characters to 80, but I was rewarded with great coin rewards and many pieces of legendary gear. Not to mention the cash and vendor drops along the way that amounted to a significant amount of coin. Along the way I completed 2 language quests (not counting the one in Kylong) and virtually every white shiny collection in these zones. I received AA for named kills as well. After all that, as if that wasn't enough, lo and behold I get all my faction crafting recipes without having to ever do any ............ um...........crafting. It just doesn't get any better than that. No wonder some of you folks are scared to death that it might be different in the future.
You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. You do not have to pay attention to balance Bathezid and Rillis faction. For one, you could probably get 70k Rillis faction if it were possible to achieve that number if you did every Rillis quest. So taking Rillis hits means nothing for the few quests you have to take them on. Secondly, you really can't progress Bathezid faction very far at all adventuring unless you do take the Rillis hits. So your high wire act is all in your mind or you are intentionally trying to mislead. Thirdly, do not measure the time it took you to get to 50k Rillis and 50k Danak since for the point of our discussion, only the amount of time it took you to get to 30k Rillis and 30k Danak matters. I'll admit this might be a moot point on Danak since the last quest gives a big chunk of faction if memory serves me right. Batheizd you were not getting to 30k anyway without grinding some repeatables or slaughtering some Yah-lei.
"Safety" of the town?
"dealing with questlines took far more time than a FEW ???? faction writs"?
Sorry, I just had to highlight those first.
Do not know quite how to break this to you but those FEW crafting writs to reach 30k faction with one of these parties is 93 writs. That's 279 writs for the 3 factions. Go do me 279 writs and come back and talk. By the way, while you are doing them, don't expect NPC's to be throwing cash and equipment at you and don't bother watching your AA bar either. Better bring some cash with you also to buy harvestables or plan on spending a bunch of time harvesting. Oh, and have fun with the Danak ones that have you hitting 3 tables for each writ. That was just a little extra spice they added for some unknown reason.
To put these 279 writs into perspective, since they are identical to rush orders (6 items) except for the reward I offer this:
279 rush orders would take you from zero to 41,850 faction (ally) with Ironforge Exchange.
279 rush orders would also yield you approx. 3,350,000 personal status which means 335,000 guild status for your guild.
That's a lot of writs for 6 recipes.
Now wait, I forgot about the risk. After all, the crafters had the safety of the town. If you died doing these adventure factions, you died to no up arrow solo mobs. If you cannot handle no up arrow solo mobs without a great deal of risk, I really do not know what to say. We all die occassionally. we back up into a 2nd or 3rd mob or whatever. However to say it was risky or you deserve some medal for heroism for fighting these mobs is a joke.
Now, for the last time I hope - if you want crafting rewards you should work for crafting rewards and if you want adventure rewards you should work for those. You should not get both for doing one.


Message edited to add the rush order vs. writ comparison and to remove a little bit of the harshness. Guess I'm not known for being very tactful.

Qandor wrote:

Domino stated that this was a learning experience, I really wish this thread would die, not that it doesn't have a valid point but that the point was made back on the first few pages.
Oh the reason i'm posting, becareful what you wish for you just might get it. Domino mentioned about making a seporate faction but there was NO MENTION of making it any easier for the number of writs to grind. Yep mostlikley you will still have grind that many writs or MORE WRITS! Yea good way to piss off both the adventuring crafter and the non adventuring crafter. Anyways That is then, this is now. The only choice one has is either a) do the writs or b) do the adventuring.
IN THE END, really the choice is yours. THere are multiple paths to get the desired faction, either you will a) do said work or b) not. Leveling from 70 to 80 sure took me alot longer then banging out 300ish writs, then again being 80 i can gather alot easier now then i could when i wasn't that level.

Ohiv wrote:

Not afraid of how many writs it would be at all. That is something Domino would have to balance as she sees fit. I just want a balanced playing field where crafters are competing against other crafters who have gotten to the rewards with the same type of effort. She may decide on 1,000 writs or 100 or anywhere inbetween and I will decide at that time if I wish to do them or pass. However, if I do decide to do them I will at least have the assurance that I am competing against others who have done them also and have earned the right to be there.

I really like the mix of quests and "writs" on the adventure side. I wouldn't mind seeing more crafting involved quests rather than writs. But, I know that just wasn't realistic with RoK and on top of that Domino's first expansion. I think she did a pretty good job at it. Though, I certainly don't agree with some of the choices that were made.

One of the huge things that bother me - adding on annoyance to tedium, is the way the writs are retrieved. My 80 crafters tend to mainly have raws on them for their main craft. My provisioners looking for the food (cause thats all the raws and fuel he carries), theres no room for raws in his bag for 3 different archetype recipes.

You have to hail the guy.... Click on the clip board... and then *hope* it gives you the writ (wait for the clicky bar to finish its 3 secs or whatever - sorry forget what its called) that uses you're raws and fuels... If it doesn't... Delete hail and start over... and over.. until you get the one you want.

I mean, yeah. It's nice to get the extra pristines... But it's a really big hassle to do that, over and over.

Really, I wish he had more a drop down NPC dialog to select the one you want, and be done with. Instead of the randomness and clicking.

Nolus@Antonia Bayle wrote:

There is a quest line on island of maar that will get you a 36 slot gathering bag. I use this on my main (provisioner) so i normally have more then enough to do the writs. NOW i will admit that when i went to get the last bit of faction i had just brokered off alot of the spares i had even still i had no problems with the writs other then one that wanted a bunch of wood. So i skipped that one, and you know if there is one you don't want it will pop up 99 out of 100 times!! Basically what I'm saying is that you just need to go in there prepaired with over a stack of each resource. Yes it's anoying but it's doable. Heck I'm not sure just a stack of each would be enough for doing 90x writs..
As to your suggestion yea i agree, i would have rather done just the provisioning ones.

already have the wantia bag... and different tiers of raw crap too.

Math again...

I've already added up the writs, 93 per faction, 279 total for all three, multiply that by how many crafters you have to see what you need.

For me, with 6 crafters, 1,474 total writs.

I was working on my Jeweler earlier today for an hour. I noticed I moved from -19k to -13k. 6k faction.

And that's by abusing the progress counters so much they'll need therapy.

Then I did the math...6k an hour. -39,750k to 30k = 11.5 hrs...let's say up to 13 hrs, being generous for things like fighting recipes (I still do now and then) and RL interruptions (for those of us who have spouse/family/pets in RL).

11.5-13 hrs x3 = 34.5-39 hrs for all three factions.

Multiply that by how many crafters you have...6 for me so 207 hrs to 234 hrs. Divide by number of hours you generally are online.

I really don't want to do that...the numbers are scaring me, LoL.

Just a bit of info that came to my writ addled mind at the time...

Qandor wrote:

I'm sorry, but what do you really think your entitled to that an Adventure Crafter is not? Seriously?? I'm not nearly as tactful as you, and rightly don't care. But don't think for one frellin minute, that your pure crafter diserves anything more than someone who is a hybrid. It is by the choice of the player to be a pure crafter, that is your ONLY risk!! ONLY risk!!!
It does not take much to sit in a town or instance and grind out writs, ESPECIALLY when those writs even the rush order ones take about 5-8 min TOPS!!! These quest lines in RoK take about 15-20 min with maybe about 2% of them being less than that. So don't give me any B.S. about Risk vs Reward because a pure crafter only risks poor eyesight from staring at their Progress bar for an hour or two.
Also, since you wanna throw #'s out there. 8 rush order crafting writs take on average 45 min and yield approximately 3.4 plat; cost of fuels 2.4 plat; profit of 68 gold per 45 min. Which means in 2.5 hours of doing rush order crafting writs you will garner 2.4 plat in total profits.
An adventurer doing city writs, garners no coin reward at turn in, a little exp on completion, some AP only on the first writ quest and takes on average 30 min. In the 30 min interim, on average make approx 30 gold. 8 writs will take 4 hours approx and will garner 2.4 plat profit.
So, for less time, less running around, and more exp, a crafter will gain twice the amount an adventurer will gain. A crafter can no longer die from the crafting table (no risk), will get their fuel back on a failed combine (big whoop), gain exp not only for every item they craft but also at turn in. Even with no TS vitality you will still get about 2-4% extra exp on turn in.
For faction with Riliss or Bathezid: On average a writ takes 5-10 minutes, gain approx 33 gold which means 8 writs will garner about 1.94 plat in an hour, for 2 hours is approx 2-4 plat and gain 12000 faction .
Faction quests for adventurers, 8 quests approx 1.5 to 2 hours time frame (may be less depending), garners 2-3 plat with quest turn in and quest rewards, you could possibly squeeze out 4 plat if you sell to a city faction merchant you are Amiable with and gain approx 10-20 k faction.
I have tested both and as you see...whether adventuring or crafting, it takes on average the same amount of time, garners the same amount in profit, approx same amount in Faction. So please tell me where you are more diserving of 'specialty' recipes vs someone who did the adventuring quests? OH! Thats right...you had to grind writs right? pfft! whatever...
I have both an Adventure Crafter and Pure crafter BY choice! Another thing, I play this game for fun, not work!!! Because crafting virtual items for 10 frellin hours IS NOT WORK!!! (Unless your on the exchange server... however, i still can not wrap my head around the concept of spending r/l money for fake items that hold no weight or value in r/l). It's being border line masicist and you need a serious dose of reality. Its one thing to be passionate for something you enjoy, but don't think for one minute your play time is more important than someone else's simply because you chose to do it a different way.
This is just another case of the same ol'complaint of Solo vs Group, Group vs Raid, and Pure Crafter vs. Adventurer. If you wanna sit and grind for 20 frelling hours in order to consider something rewarding by all means do so, but do not thinkyou diserve more of a reward than someone else because it took you longer to do it. It was your choice to do it that way, deal with it!

You wanna discuss this more...PM me, I'll be more than happy to debate it with you...

Rashaak wrote:

You are so wrong you are not actually worth a response. I am both a crafter and an adventurer and I can tell you that adventuring is far more rewarding. However, I choose to craft also, and I, like others here, have the right to ask for improvements on the current system and to voice my dissatisfaction with some aspects of it.
Do you understand that your reasons for playing the game are not a valid argument in any way? All of your arguments are subjective and as such are invalid and inconclusive. Get it through your head. Your play style and my play style and what you like doing and what I like doing and who wants what reward have nothing to do with the the topic of whether factionig is unfair to pure crafters.
Even your argument about plat is off the mark. A crafter might make a plat doing writs but in the same time an adventurer has made five times as much. And did you say a crafter can earn 12000 faction in 2 hours? An adventurer can get faction for walking from one house or room in Danak to another. A crafter who is not also an adventurer has no choice but to grind those writs, and they are are a grind, even at 750 faction per writ.
If you want to debate this, you can do it here in the open. But I suggest you learn how to debate logically and discuss the topic instead of attacking the board users.

Rashaak wrote:

scratched*

So Im guessing they put in the Rok recipies for the other crafter's?
Since there's been alot of numbers thrown out about how long the ritz are taking ....
How about .... How many ritz could have been done instead of posting about it.
Im with you Ohiv ... this subject should die.
But i do have a question .... Where do people find the time to have every crafter and still do some adventureing .... And why havent you made them high lvl adventure also?

Silken@Butcherblock wrote:

If I'm so wrong, why did you respond? You said I wasn't worth the response...take your best shot at trying to prove me wrong. However...you'll find I'm more right than you know. I want you to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt your pure crafter diserves special treatment of players who chose to be an adventure crafter, raider, casual gamer, etc. Make me a believer!
Until then this is a classic case of some whining because they feel their entitlement should be worth more than someone elses. Simply because they had to grind writs, it's a load of bull and you know it as well as everyone else. Prove me wrong...
You made a choice to be a crafter and just a crafter. The penalty for that? None what so ever. BTW, if you failed basic math...I'll put it here for you.
8 writs an hour for 2 hours equals 16 total writs. 750 faction x 16 writs = 12000 faction.

They aren't saying that their pure crafters deserve special treatment over hybrids. They're arguing that the ability to do the adventure writs and not craft is giving hybrid adventurer/crafter characters an advantage and "special treatment" over pure crafters.

Domino, the tradeskill dev, also said that she thought it was a little off kilter.

End of discussion.

Play nice kids. We're all gamers here and there's game there for all of us. Domino will even it out a bit next go around.