Why I think RoK factioning is basically unfair to pure crafters.

Discussion in 'Tradeskill Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-Qandor, Mar 4, 2008.

  1. ARCHIVED-Valdaglerion Guest

    Yes, it takes about 6 minutes to bust out a writ in bathezids for 750 faction. It takes about 1 minute to solo the fish mobs for +25 faction. Seriously, that is unbalanced!!! I would like to see the mob factions raised to about 150 per kill please so we can finish the last 30,000 in faction as quickly as the crafters!

    I remember when Rok came out those writs were 500 per just like the adventure repeats, then whining ensued and they got upped to 750.

    Sorry but when Bathezids stops at 25k approx and you are looking at a 15 minute repeat quest for 500 faction or killing mobs for 25 faction and then you look at crafting with 750 faction for 6 minute writs...yeah, crafters got it tough there. /boggle
  2. ARCHIVED-Nuhus Guest

    Gorhauth wrote:
    Ok, sorry. Should have double checked. heres what I have on my sole adventurer.....

    Bathezid's 24,800 (only did repeatables once) Going from -39,750 to 24,800 is easier adventuring than crafting..

    Riliss 49,800 (only did repeatables once)

    Legion of Danak 50,000 (only did repeatables once)

    yeah, heck of a grind the last 2 were. I'd mention the others that are at 50k but they don't offer crafter quests/rewards...
  3. ARCHIVED-Skivley101 Guest

    Nolus@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    You missed my point i think ... "have group content that favors being a high lvl crafter"
  4. ARCHIVED-Nuhus Guest

    Skivley101 wrote:
    Problem #1 They were put in the same reward pool

    Problem #2 Writ grinds suck on both ends
  5. ARCHIVED-TaleraRis Guest

    I've got no problem with adventurers adventuring their way to crafting rewards...

    ...when my crafter is able to get higher than 30k faction and get adventuring rewards by crafting.
  6. ARCHIVED-denmom Guest

    Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:
    No, it was 250 per writ before it was raised to 750.
  7. ARCHIVED-Scribbler-rj Guest

    When will some people realize that the only comparison you can make to your high lvl crafter/low adventurer would be the high adventurer/low crafter. In fact, the high crafter/low adventurer has the advantage because all they need do is grind writs to get that faction. The high adventurer/low crafter has to grind all the tradeskill tiers to get those recipes.

    You can't compare it to the high adventurer/high crafter. This person has spent a lot more time and effort than either of the other two. Is it easier for him/her to get the faction for the recipes? Sure probably, but they've also put in a LOT more work than the other two types to get there. So overall, the minor effort to quest for those factions is moot because they've already put in the work.

    So let us summarize...
    • Category 1) High Adventurer/High Tradeskiller put in a lot more time and work than anybody else.
    • Category 2) High Adventurer/Low Tradeskiller will have to put in all the tradeskill work to level, which when they are done will put them in category 1.
    • Category 3) Low Adventurer/High Tradeskiller need not put all that work into levelling up their adventuring aspect as all they need do is grind out some writs. Does it take a while? Sure, but nowhere near as long as categories 1 and 2 have already or will put in.
    Seems to me that Category 3 (which is the category that seems to be complaining) gets the recipes for the least effort.

    The only issue is that pure crafters (category 3) want the new recipes immediately, regardless they chose to take the path of least resistance and can't grasp the concept that the easiest path doesn't always give immediate results.
  8. ARCHIVED-Ragnaphore Guest

    Ohiv wrote:
    Actualy, "Heads or Tales" is the first (or maybe 2nd) Danak's quest for adventurer.
    And yes, it's easier for adventurer/crafter than for pure crafter. Intented or not, we'll have to live with it.
    Let's see, I've 4 Grand Masters. What happened to them right after the GU. One is lvl 80, I just went to Bath/Rillis/Danak and got my recipes (I still miss the Bathezid 30K which isn't that good for Sage anyway or I would have done the 7 or 8 writs I'm missing). Another is lvl 77, bought Rillis and Bathezid right away, still 30Kish short for Danak. Now either I do 50 writs for Danak earning a whooping total 1.5 PP or I just continue to level on Danak's questline, earning items I will use, AA, XP and probably more than 1.5 PP even if I'll die alot. Tough choice
    The other two are low level, one provi who were already grinding faction for the 10K books so I guess it's not that bad "only" 170 more writs for him. Last one would have 250+ writs to do if I ever want to buy the recipes (that about the same number of writs you need to get to 40K with your TS society if that helps people see how many it takes)
    I've no problem with adventurer/crafter having a slight adventage over "pure" crafter or adventurer (things like the grind for the cloak quest, access to MajDul Courts or even the original Wurmslayer HQ are fine in my book) but what we have here is way over the top.
    There's no easy solution at this point. You can't up too much the faction given per writs or you'll inverse the problem (1K would still be fine I guess) If crafters were getting something other than just faction for doing writs it may help too. Let's face it, once you factor either the harvest time or the brocker's cost, 3 gold per writs is not an incencitive. Giving more coins per writs isn't a solution either as it would mostly benefit botters. As others said, some runaround quests might alleviate the grind (do it like the Sokokar quest : you can only do them if you're under a certain adv. level so it remains challenging) but I'm not sure if adding this kind of quests should be a priority.
    Maybe just add 6K or 8K SP reward to the writs so they don't seems so pointless.
  9. ARCHIVED-Ragnaphore Guest

    Mariss@Nektulos wrote:
    Well that sounds good and all until you realize that the high adventurer/low crafter has no more use for these recipes than the the high crafter/low adv. for T8 raid loots
  10. ARCHIVED-Jrral Guest

    Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:
    I think you miss some big differences between adventurers and crafters getting faction.

    Adventurers get faction in fairly big chunks, the starting quests tend to drop 10K faction and then ramp down to 1K after a few steps. Riliss and Danak an adventurer can run the questlines and get to 50K faction in a couple-three days even playing only 4 hours a day. Bathezid you top out around 23K, which means grinding the repeatable quest. But for the most part an adventurer has interesting things to do, and things that pay out significant coin and items. The only thing tedious is the Bathezid repeatable: find and hail the vanguard NPCs while sidestepping pointless aggro. And they did change the quest to make it more tedious: there's only about 6 vanguards (you need to hail 12), and you have to see which of them's up at the moment. It's a time-sink more than a challenge, which is what gripes me about it. I'd rather a mob-killing quest, or even killing nasty even-con triple-ups.

    Crafters who aren't adventurers have it exactly the opposite. They've got nothing but tedious non-challenging crafting writs to do (by the time you're 80 you don't blow combines very often), and they've got many times as many to do as the worst of the adventurer's repeatable faction quests. And they don't get paid anything significant. 3g? Fah, I see that much drop off the body of a single mob. They get to run back and forth between the writ-giver and the crafting station, slogging out recipes they could do in their sleep. And since they can't use the bankers or fuel merchants, they have to either run back to their home city for fuel and materials and then traipse back out to the RoK zone again or have a guildie ferry stuff out to them. No challenge, just tedium. And the cost, gods. They don't get paid for raws, so they either have to spend even more time harvesting, have guildies spend time harvesting, or spend big chunks of coin buying raws off the broker. It probably easily costs a crafter as much to get to 30K faction as an adventurer makes getting to the same point.

    I think that's the main gripe I hear: the tedium. And I agree with that gripe. Nobody enjoys paying for the dubious privilege of being bored to death.
  11. ARCHIVED-Qandor Guest

    Jehannum wrote:
    Seriously, think a minute. Let's take your scenario. For example, my non-adventuring crafters range from level 10 to level 33 adventuring. So let's say I use the level 33 for arguments sake.
    Ok, so I start off in Bathezid Watch, Sokolar down to Kylong zone in. Sokolar my way across to Jarsath Wastes Post. Run the gauntlet past the Sel'noks and angry little chickens to the Wastes zone in. Now I run through all the level 76/77 lions and other critters to get to the Sel'Nok cave. As I enter the Sel'nok cave of course they kill me because I am KoS to Sel'noks by default but we will overlook that for the moment. Now I pick up the shipment to go to Ry'zilks renegades I suppose. So back through the 76/77 lions to Kylong zone in. Mad dash to Jarsath wastes post through the Sel'noks and mini-chickens. Fly across Kylong once again to Fens. Now fly through Fens to where? Rillis? Ok, Rillis. Run to Jungle zone in and avoid all the Jinisk guards because I'm KoS to them. All the Sathirian patrollers and their mutts as well and all the Ry'Zilk reengades because I'm Kos to them also only to deliver a package to them and get killed on the spot. But I'm not done, I have to get back to Bathezid yet? I hope this is for 150k faction.
    Listen, it was cute running this New Lands, New Profits thing once. Seems like many of you got a great thrill out of it. Not sure why. You can certainly take your level 10 adventurer and run through Skyfire anytime you want. You do not need a quest to do it if that somehow gives you a buzz.
    That being said, designing even more quests that require low level adventurers to run around through mobs 50 levels their senior would be the sickest of jokes. I'll do it again when they add adventure quests that require level 80 adventurers to negotiate through swarms of level 130 mobs. I mean being one shotted is just so much fun especially when you are dead before you even know you were hit.
  12. ARCHIVED-Te'ana Guest

    Ohiv wrote:
    BTW: The 31,500 status point quest is the FIRST quest in a long line.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________
    Adventurers get faction in fairly big chunks, the starting quests tend to drop 10K faction and then ramp down to 1K after a few steps. Riliss and Danak an adventurer can run the questlines and get to 50K faction in a couple-three days even playing only 4 hours a day. Bathezid you top out around 23K, which means grinding the repeatable quest. But for the most part an adventurer has interesting things to do, and things that pay out significant coin and items. The only thing tedious is the Bathezid repeatable: find and hail the vanguard NPCs while sidestepping pointless aggro. And they did change the quest to make it more tedious: there's only about 6 vanguards (you need to hail 12), and you have to see which of them's up at the moment. It's a time-sink more than a challenge, which is what gripes me about it. I'd rather a mob-killing quest, or even killing nasty even-con triple-ups.

    Crafters who aren't adventurers have it exactly the opposite. They've got nothing but tedious non-challenging crafting writs to do (by the time you're 80 you don't blow combines very often), and they've got many times as many to do as the worst of the adventurer's repeatable faction quests. And they don't get paid anything significant. 3g? Fah, I see that much drop off the body of a single mob. They get to run back and forth between the writ-giver and the crafting station, slogging out recipes they could do in their sleep. And since they can't use the bankers or fuel merchants, they have to either run back to their home city for fuel and materials and then traipse back out to the RoK zone again or have a guildie ferry stuff out to them. No challenge, just tedium. And the cost, gods. They don't get paid for raws, so they either have to spend even more time harvesting, have guildies spend time harvesting, or spend big chunks of coin buying raws off the broker. It probably easily costs a crafter as much to get to 30K faction as an adventurer makes getting to the same point.

    I think that's the main gripe I hear: the tedium. And I agree with that gripe. Nobody enjoys paying for the dubious privilege of being bored to death.
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Jrral, I am soooo in agreement with this!
  13. ARCHIVED-pikeymoose Guest

    Listen, Companys do thing for reasons...yes there is allways a MOTIVE. So why would this new change go through? Seems clear that the player base that is 80 and bored from finishing content, and might get rewarded now and pick up tradeskilling to utillize all that effort of faction. This decision was not made by 1 loser at sony, you can bet there was a TEAM of individuals looking at keeping a majority player base happy....if you are not part of that majority...beat it. This is the reality of broken weaponsmiths...so few of them, and classes that have no player base...troubadors. coercers?
    If you are a pure tradeskiller...Sony is saying inbetween the lines here. F off. Go and adventure. There are many bones thrown to the low lv adventurer, this one is thrown to the 80 adventurer that is also a crafter...and wants something that a lowbie can not have. Just deal with it for &*^% sake.
    I used to bash Sony all the time, now I realize they can not please everybody.....let me see you say with a straight face that tadeskilling is worse now then a year ago???? Congrats for Sony to even visit the spectrum of TSing. Although Weaponsmiths are STILL broken to the 9th degree.
    Moose...WS suck ****. so I made a tailor, jeweler, carpenter, sage, woodworker, armorer. (yes they are all 80)
    later.
  14. ARCHIVED-Jehannum Guest

    Qandor wrote:
    Any quest which had a lowbie crafter going to a default-KOS faction would obviously incorporate a means to achieve that faction prior to becoming a red smear. I should be shocked that you didn't naturally come to that conclusion yourself but after so long on these boards I've almost come to expect it. There are also a number of invisibility and speed effects which would permit this sort of quest to be completed reasonably easily by many low-level adventurers. It wouldn't be trivial, but that's the choice you make when you opt not to keep your levels in balance.
    Most importantly, it'd offer a diversion from endless writ grinding. Now if you really prefer that, and aren't interested in discussion of viable alternatives, that's cool - but despite the fact my adventurer level made things much easier for me, I'm in favour of helping the pure crafter relieve the monotony of writ after writ after writ. And as such, something like harvesting or delivery quests seem to make the most sense for two very good reasons:
    1. They don't explicitly require an adventuring level the way a kill quest does.
    2. They could be integrated seamlessly in terms of the lore involved.
  15. ARCHIVED-KnightOfTheWord Guest

    Qandor wrote:
    I do this all the time harvesting anyways, why not get a quest out of it?
  16. ARCHIVED-Gorhauth Guest

    Gwyneth@Najena wrote:
    That is as ignorant as saying I want to get rewards for my low level crafter to get from adventuring.

    The high level adventurer NEEDS to be a high level crafter to reap the rewards.
  17. ARCHIVED-Qandor Guest

    Jehannum wrote:
    Cute. I knew I shouldn't have been generous and offered you a level 33 adventurer as the test subject. What is a sub level 30 adventurer invising with? What is a sub level 30 adventurer using to get that speed buff you recommend or should they have to go buy a horse for this run. Or perhaps that was another implied thing that they will be given speed and invis buffs?
    Glad you finally thought about a means of being non-KoS since you weren't evidently phased by that small problem in your little proposal initially.
    So anyway we are now all invised and speed buffed and we are not KoS to anything on the planet so why is this little run so interesting again or such a diversion? You have just substituted one boring quest, a fed-ex delivery quest for another boring quest a writ. So will we be making this run 93 times for each faction or maybe only 31 times with 62 writs thrown in to spice it up? You offered this little half hour jaunt as a substitute but failed to indicate what the recommended faction might be for this task. 750? 2,500? 10,000?
    It is a stretch to say such a journey is in anyway connected to crafting. I suppose you can make a loose connection for it to most anything, maybe even dancing I suppose. Your intrepid traveler could be delivering new dance routines to the Ry'zilk Renegades for example.
    My suggestion? Well my suggestion is quite simple. Level the playing field first and foremost. Keep adventuring rewards for adventurers and crafting rewards for crafters. If you want both, you work for both. You do not get handed both for doing one side.
    Writs are boring as heck but so are many other types of quests if you are required to do them over and over again. Maybe there is no real way to spice it up. I hadn't really asked for a way to spice it up. Crafters signed on to craft and they should have known what they were getting into. The idea of alternatives to writs was mentioned by others and not myself. I'm not necessarily against it. I'm just a little hesitant that one boring task will replace another with enough repetition. I think 280 writs was a bit over the top for 6 recipes, many of which are only marginally useful if at all. I won't do them for my characters that are not adventuring types. I have the recipes for my level 80 adventurer/crafters gotten for no effort on my part. I might have been tempted to do the writs if I were competing against other folks who had to do them also but I'm not doing 280 writs to get to a point on par with folks who did zero writs. That would indeed be a waste of time.
    Anyway, no harm no foul. I poked you. You poked me and I poked you back so you have a free poke coming.
  18. ARCHIVED-TaleraRis Guest

    Gorhauth wrote:
    They didn't level their adventure level to get an easier ride with their crafters. They should have to put in equal work toward their crafting as any other crafter at that level to gain the same rewards.
  19. ARCHIVED-SilkenKidden Guest

    Qandor wrote:
    I liked the unedited version better. Not everyone has invis or stealth especially at the lower levels. Some can't even use the invis potions until almost 30. A lot don't have portals and calling home is a real bother.
  20. ARCHIVED-MrWolfie Guest

    Lateana@The Bazaar wrote:
    Unfortunately, what we have is short-sighted people calling for nerfs on other classes and/or playstyles because it's "unfair" to them.

    Instead of asking for better rewards from the things they can do. (Or better things to do, period).

    Until this vocal section wise up, the developer knee jerk reaction we've come to know and love will continue to plague EQ2's game updates.

    Seriously, if you can't make your case without comparing your character to some other, then you need to rethink your argument.

    Comparisons are unhealthy.