Question here is, what do you all feel like Juggernaut should do? I myself am happy with the crit chance, but i think the amount of HP it consumes could be lowered some thats for sure. Someone also suggested to make it add to our offensive skills + crit chance to offset the amount of Defense / Parry and Mitigation we are losing, which is also another good idea. Would like to hear what you guys think Juggernaut CA should do. Okay.. looks like we are getting back to the thread finally. I think there are more than enough threads about Tanking vs utility vs DPSing. We do significant DPS, and we do give good buffs to the scout group and we do make good tanks... now everybody pat each on the back and make friends. More than likely, the devs won't do anything to Jugg, and we should get used to that. If they were going to, I would suggest some of the following: Remove or reduce the Penalties SIGNIFICANTLY: The health penaly equates to roughly 1/2 of any zerker's health. In adition to 1/2 our health, we lose 117 from our defense AND Parry, which means a High con blue will be hitting you as if it was a low con orange. Then consider your are losing over half of your mitigation and it is easy to see that the other 50% of your health isn't going to last long (3 or 4 hits maybe) Raise the Crit chance to 100%: Make this spell do exactly what it says it gonna do... turn your zerk into a raging war machine for 24 seconds. In 24 seconds, you are only going to hit maybe 9 times, so make it so Jugg makes those hits count. Raise Slash/ Crush skills to offset the Defense/Parry: I actually like this idea alot since it would give use a little edge on some of the epic raids that will be Orange con. One of the biggest problems with Orange con mobs is that you can't hit them. Raising Slash Crush would give zerkers the edge for these encounters (which are limited) and let us put out bursts of damage on a seemingly impenetrable target. Giving us a skill that raised our Slashing/Crushing by 117 would maybe move a few more zerker into raids that have been sitting on the sidelines thus far. Regardless of what happens with Juggernaut, I think that it suffices to say that it is a pretty worthless spell. The funny part about Juggernaut is that the penalties are way out of balance with the benefits. If this is a balanced spell, then I wonder if they would also consider the following balanced: Juggernaut master 1 Increases Regen 122 HP per second Increases Mitigation by 1560 Increases Defense/Parry by 117 Decreases Crit Hit by 30% Hmmmm come to think of it, that's the perfect way to change it.. since the first one is 'Balanced' then it should still be balanced just by reversing the effect, right? So how about it devs? Can we just have the effects reversed on Juggernaut?
i'm inclined to think dev's will not give us 100% chance to crit on aoe type spell, pretty sure they're afraid of the rampage ver1.0 happening again, where we'll wipe out groups of mobs. if thats the case, keep the 30% crit chance, and just loose the parry/mitigation penalties. I'm pretty sure everyone can live with a DoT casted on yourself just so that you have a 30% chance to crit, heck it might actually be "used" as early testing indicated crit's just aren't impressive and 30% isn't really impressive, but take away the obscene penalities associated with this skill and ppl might actually want to make this into an adept3 or find a master.
im liking this skill. /quote People need to stop overlooking that we can serve two purposes where a Guard realistically only serves one. /quote brilliant thats exactly how i feel. we have in our class the ability to play very very different types of beserker. your complainign because you wont use one skill and moan about that? well i might come on here and moan about the tens of skills i dont use as they dont fit my style. you would flame me to high hell but if some of you cant use one or two skills your ok to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? hmm i dont use shields or defensive stances never have never will, i dont complain cause i realise some people prefer to be more mit and hp orientated. me my sense of a zerker is max damage and good armour. no i dont want a scout or mage class i want what ive got. i can tank with out going defensive and ahve tanked raids and groups since i started my char. so im alittle more work for a healer big deal least we can move faster by killing quicker i can give most casters a run for thier money in dps and the difference is i can survive a hit or 19 and they cant. this skill will be great for anyone who groups or duos with a compentant high enough healer, there are heals out there for well over 1000 well b fine, also the VoM thought is great heh. /quote Dont know how you play your class or how your raid leader sets up your DPS groups, but I do enough DPS to make people more then blink on parsers thats for sure. If you have a very experienced Guardian in your raid, you wont be MT but more or less MA, unless they like to share the role around, which by the sounds here in the Berserkers forum, alot of you like nothing but to hog the lime light. We DPS more then alot think because like Sugargirl said, people get in these mind sets and think that we are nothing more then a Tank period, when in acual fact we can DPS with the best of them and add utility to DPS groups. Yes we do have utility in a raid other then Tank, but again, like No.2, people get stuck in these mind sets and dont know how to diversitie themselves into other postions OR certain raid leaders think they know whats best for your class when in acual fact, they have never even played a Berserker to begin with. /quote the above is all good and needed posting again for empthasis. in summary we are a lucky class. if you want to play a guardian zerker you can if you want to play a damage machine you can. but you shouldnt demand that everyone plays the same class the same way. also this skill will allow for some heroic deaths
also this skill will allow for some heroic deaths LOL!!! So True. Seriously though, even playing a zerker from a DPS standpoint (which I do a majority of the time) this spell is still pretty much worthless as the only Marquee spell for the tier. Using a Vogue and capped STR, it's only doing ~450 damage. That's the same as Breach or Wallop, which are both instant casts with a fast refresh timer and no penalties. If you are playing your zerker defensively, it's useless If you are playing your zerker in a DPS role, It's useless If your are playing your zerker as Utility, it's worthless If your soloing or single grouping, it's worthless and if you are raiding, it's worthless. I just don't see this art as being useful in increasing our damage output in it's current state; especially with the penalties associated with it. A few people have posted that you can cast Chaos to negate 50% of the Mit penalty and healers can take care of the damage... but doing this IMO just increases the mana cost associated with the art as well as making those heals/buffs unavailble for a time that they might actually be needed. I've tried really hard to recognize some sort of usefulness for this art, but have failed to come up with anything, so I am curious.... how do you see it as being useful to us?
Just an update, this skill was silence nerfed this morning. Like it was anygood anyway, pff Now master one is 27% instead of 40%. Oh well, i was looking for a reason to take the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty skill off my hotbar anyway
Mean and unproductive... see.. I do have some sense! Message Edited by SugarGirl on 03-02-200611:08 AM
3-2-06 update says different - Berserker: Juggernaut costs less health than before, and increases both critical hit and melee combat art damage. again health wasn't the issue, the massive detriment to mitigation and defense/parry was heh. can some1 who has jugg, re-examine and see by what percentage they changed the stats?
Edit : My comment was mean and unproductive and obviously pointed at the devs.... removed Message Edited by SugarGirl on 03-02-200611:09 AM
Exactly, the defensive penalties are the problem. The mobs in KoS are a lot tougher than these in DoF, even with more damage and less hp cost, I'd still be stupid casting this spell while tanking or playing solo. And still remains the big question: Why do we Beserkers get a spell making us incapable of tanking or playing solo while about every other class gets more or less great or/and usefull spells they can use anytime they want?
Yeah.. they seem to like it too http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=34279 I thought the whole idea of the combat changes in LU 13 were to decrease the chasm between tank classes..... I'd like to hear from the dev that thinks Juggernaut actually helps to accomplish this task. Especially in comparison to the abilities the guarda are getting here.
So, do both % Crit hit and Combat art damages now go up 27%? "and increases both critical hit and melee combat art damage" Or did it just decrease the Crit hit bonus? Are the procs from Rampage and Open wounds considered Combat art damage or Melee damage? Still not very impressive. I still like my idea of reverseing the penalties and benefits better Message Edited by SugarGirl on 03-02-200605:47 PM
When inspected slay went from 1079 to 1279. I did a few tests with it, spell is ok still...i can only see myself using it with rampage and openwounds and the other thingy from AA, otherwise is not worth it. I also duo box a mystic, makes it a lot easier for me. What i do is put up 3 wards, then use rampage, open wounds and jug and the damage is pretty good. It shows, ill give it that BTW, i dont have yet any AA crit, i assume with that is gonan be even better.
Thanks for the update Florin. If it's bumping up CA's by 20% we'll get a lot better damage than a Crit boost for sure. At least it will be noticeable. I'm still unsure as to why SoE got so excited about Crit hits all the sudden.. they aren't all that exciting. I still think the penalties on this are pretty steep for what we're getting damage-wise, but at least this is better than what it started out at. Note to SoE: For future expansion, you might want to look into giving zerkers something that will make them more effective tanks. Arts like this only move us farther away from the tanking role and move us towards a DPS role. The more you increase our DPS, the more you will have to increase the Brawler, scout, and Mage DPS to maintain your DPS tiers.... which, at the end of the day, leaves all the same issues in place. .... but at any rate, thanks for listening and doing SOMETHING about Juggernaut. Hopefully it will get a few more tweaks before it's done.
I am still PO'ed about this spell. Even after the slight improvement they made to it it's still not up to par with any of the other class's marquee spells. Not even close! Take for example, the Wizard's. They get a new super high-powered AOE nuke called Fusion that does 7-10k of damage straight up. It has a really cool sound-effect too. I have a Wizard friend who use it all the time and he absolutely loves it. I can always tell when he is getting ready to cast it because of the unique sound effect it makes before it hits. That spell absolutely OBLIITERATES mobs and is useful for multiple and single targets because of the huge damage it does either way. My Wizard friend is constantly gloating about it every time he uses it and the mobs just disintegrate from it. He really gets a kick out of it. But I don't blame him because it is really cool. I told him that he is lucky because our new spell totally sucks and that I will never have any use for it. He was like yeah right come on. Then I told him everything it does. I was like hmm, let's see, it does a lot of things actually...it cuts our mit in half, takes all our resists down, reduces our defense and parry skills, and costs health to cast and maintain. Just for a bit of extra DPS. He was like OMG that really does suck I feel sorry for you guys HAHA. He was like why would they give such a useless spell like that to a tank class that makes them totally suck at tanking if they use it? I told him that I have no idea and that I will probably never even bother to scribe the spell. I have the Ad1 for it that I looted but it will probably just sit in my bank and rot, that's how much I hate it. Our new spell doesn't obliterate any mobs, it forces us to obliterate ourselves just to try and get a fraction of the DPS that a Wizard is capable of. And it's not going to work. Whatever extra DPS this spell does give us it doesn't mean squat because the real DPS classes are still going to be on top of the parser, where they belong, when it's all said and done. And the mages will be more durable than us with this spell on too. Thier new spells don't have any penalties associated with them. Ours is the only one that does. Especially now that my friend macroed it with his deaggro spell he doesn't even get aggro from it that much now, at least not when I'm tanking. Someone else I grouped with last night told me hey guess what someone got the master of your new spell and is trying to sell it. I asked them what spell. They said Juggernaught. I was like LOL as if I care. Every time anyone even mentions this spell to me I get made about it And when I tell other people about it they all agree it totally sucks. And I still don't see how the extra DPS from this thing would worth it in any situation. Even in a raid with someone else tanking, you're not going to want to use this thing at all. Jousting AOEs is hard enough as it is but at least we can survive most of them if our timing is off and go back to max range with the healers and bow while we med up when we do get hit. This spell will make it so that we can't even do that. You are not going to want to be anywhere near a mob that has any nasty AOEs with this spell on and of course you would have to be up close to the mob to get anything out of it. You will get one-shotted every time, I guarantee it! And considering that it's a short-duration buff, using it while jousting would not make any sense anyway. I guess it might help you get a few extra crit hits from your bow. LOL Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-05-200601:42 PM
Yeah I keep hearing about fusion in guild chat. If they want to move us into a DPS role, then give us a DPS spell. If they want to even out the tanking roles, then give us a defensive spell or something that helps with Tanking (maybe a parry buff or AE avoidance). But don't give us a spell that makes us as fragile as a wizard without the damage of a wizard.
I think it makes us even more fragile than a Wizard. They might not have that much mit and HP and no parry skill to begin with but at least they always have their resists and their defense skill. They even have a self buff that increases their defense skill that has no penalties with it. And their new spell is a nuke of course that can be casted from far away and does instant INSANE damage. Ours requires us to be up close to the mob to try and get some extra DPS out of our melee attacks. And with all our defenses down and the health drain going on that is not going to be a smart idea when fighting mobs with bad AOEs. I was thinking that it might be at least somewhat useful while medding between AOEs to get some extra DPS out of my bow in raids...but obviously the health drain makes that impossible not to mention the fact that it can only be cast while berserk. It really is the most pathetic thing I have ever seen in this game. Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-05-200601:46 PM
"not to mention the fact that it can only be cast while berserk" DADGUMMIT!!!! I forgot about that. Yeah I hate this spell more and more everyday. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.... all the developers on the zerker team are guardians obviously.
yea few guardians i talked to keep asking me if i know what i'm talking about when i tell them about jugg, they like, well they did change it, so maybe it's better... don't get me wrong i'm just talkin to the same arch type and class that shares our warrior aa's but every guard i talked to say, "check juggernaught again, i think your wrong they prolly changed it for the better" no one believes we get a spell that is just so bad, so detrimental, and with few (if any really) bonus. *btw if you don't know already guards love obliterate.
