Oh I'm sure that Guardians are very happy that we are getting a totally useless marquee spell. They are getting a nice DD/debuff attack that's even better than our Demolish CA (our big T7 DD/stun, upgrade to Slay). I'm telling you, this is SOE's new way of ninja-nerfing us. I am going to hit 65 today. I have the Ad1 of Juggernaught in my inventory. I AM NOT EVEN GOING TO SCRIBE IT. I refuse. Why should I? There is not one situation I can think of where I would EVER want to try using it. All of my friends and guildmates rely on me as a Main Tank. When I log on I get tells from people asking me to come and tank for them. When I go LFG I get tells from people asking me to come and tank for them. I never get invites to be a DPS except on rare occasians when I get invited to a raid by a friend and there's already a main tank and they just need some extra spot-filler so they can have a full raid. And then I suck at jousting and I don't have fun doing it anyway and I hate it so I just do what I can and eat the AOEs, which I usually manage to survive. But not with this spell on, oh no. It's hard enough for me to survive them in full defense mode (with def stance and shield on with extra resists). Sometimes I will try with off stance and 2h and still manage to survive. Unless of course I get stunned and don't recover from the stun before the next AOE hits. Then I'm toast. Sometimes I still get one-shotted too, either way. The last thing I need is to have a spell on that completely ruins all my defenses and has a health drain on top of it. That would literally be suicide. And for what? For nothing. Being dead in a raid makes me even more useless than just standing next to the casters and bowing at max range the whole time. And then on the rare occasions where I am an OT In a normal group I need to be ready to take aggro and get control of adds. Switching from off stance to def stance in that situation is time-consuming enough. Those few extra seconds can mean a lot. I don't need the extra hassle of having this stupid thing on me and trying to click it off really fast when sh*t hits the fan and getting myself and my group killed for it. It's just not worth it. And you can forget about using it while soloing too, that would be a silly idea as well. GRRRRRR You know, I would really like the DPS-wannabe Berserkers who have posted here in the past like Silewen and Splinterr who said that this spell is going to make them an uber DPS to come back here and tell us exactly how it's supposed to work and when to use it so that it actually does some good without getting people killed. And I would like to see some parses that include the damage from other DPS classes shown for comparison to see just how uber it really is. Honestly, I would really like for this spell to have SOME kind of use, I really would, even if it's only good outside the role of MT. I'm just not seeing it though. And even if it does up our DPS by a considerable amount then we have to worry about taking aggro with it on and getting one-shotted that way. The extra DPS isn't going to be enough to make up for the fact that we can't use it while soloing either. It's just absolutely ridiculous and I would really like to know who came up with the idea for this spell and actually allowed it into the game. I just have no idea WTH they were thinking except to nerf our class by giving us a new spell that is totally worthless in comparison to the new spells that all the other clases are getting. And it REALLY makes me mad that there doesn't seem to be enough Berserkers who care enough about this class to stand up for it and prevent things like this from happening. Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-05-200603:42 PM
Dictionary.com search for juggernaut. jug·ger·naut http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/****.jpg( P ) Pronunciation Key (jgr-nôt) n. Something, such as a belief or institution, that elicits blind and destructive devotion or to which people are ruthlessly sacrificed. An overwhelming, advancing force that crushes or seems to crush everything in its path: “It doesn't assume that people need necessarily remain passive when confronted by what appears to be the juggernaut of history†(Christopher Lehmann-Haupt). Juggernaut Used as a title for the Hindu deity Krishna. There's a bit more, but dont need to spam. Personally, i cant stand the spell. Its not on my hotbar, but i did scribe thinking. "Well, it cant be as bad as it seems". Boy was i mistaken. I'd rather they gave me another useless animal illusion (badger maybe?) that provided no benifets, then this spell. I dont understand where in the line of "offensive warrior" it implies we should throw our avoidance and mitigation to the four winds. Resulting in cloth casters tanking better then us. Now that i've expressed some of my thoughts. Few thoughts about juggernaut: - Add the effect to increase our max hps to this spell. Making us a true juggernaut. Not sure what would be an acceptable amount, but personally i'd say 40+%. Considering it only lasts 24s. - Rebalance (read: reduce) the mitigation/avoidance penalties to balance for the increased in Hps. This way, we can Buff the heck out of our hps but resulting in us taking more damage. effectively breaking even. Therefore this spell would suddenly be usable while tanking. Note i say reduce the mit/avoidance, right now its unbelievable. As juggernaut stands: there is no situation where we're filling our role as an "offensive tank" and this spell is applicable. Where the risk equals the reward. Casting this spell results in us taking about 25% of our health (i think each tick is around 1% max health) over 25s. Not only does it take up 25% of our health, it increases our damage taken by about 40-50%. The reward for this is... um... an additional 100 dps (if that) over 24s? Interesting balance. Ok, i admit, i dont have proof to back up the 40-50%, i'm guesstimating. I went from 68% mit to 33% mit and from 25% avoidance to 0% avoidance (i was in offensive stance). So i'm guessing thats about 40-50% increase in damage . There's my justfication for the numbers. They aren't accurate, just guesstimating. Obviously guesstimations wont get this spell fixed. So i suppose we (the community of berserkers) need to gather some hard facts. Parses while juggernaut is running, and us doing our damnest to parse high. Parses that compare our increased dps, and then our increases damage recieved. Since we're tanks, its assumed we'll be tanking when we cast this spell. To assume otherwise is to suggest that we're not tanks. Anywho, When i hit 70 on mon-tues, i'll start gathering some screenshots and stuff of this spell in action. Hopefully have a guildie friend assist me with his modified parser. See if its possible to provide some data as to why this spell really needs to be overhauled. My vision of Juggernaut: Result. - Self version of Bolster (mystic lvl 65 spell. They would stack) - We're easier to hit. We're bigger targets. - Our mitagation stays the same. Why would my plate armor fall off? - We get bigger, stronger, tougher. We become a juggernaut, something that destroys stuff in its path. That would be a relatively balanced lvl 65 spell, that would actually be cool and useful.
Aonein, Let me try to explain this one more time. I am not saying that and have never said that we cannot raid tank. Nor am I saying that you said that. We are Tanks. You missed the entire point of my "Discussion Point" on Tanking vs Damage Dealing. the bottom line is, we are Top of the Line tanks, ie I said the differences between Guardians and Berserkers is SUBTLE. That means insignificant. So we are Equals when it comes to tanking. Next I made a comment out our damage dealing capabilities and compared us to scout/mages, saying that the difference their is HUGE. The DPS of a Zerker is roughly in the 300-400 range. The DPS of scouts is usually in the 800-1000 range. So as we can see, our DPS no where touches the potential of T1 DPS. So to answer your question, no we dont serve two purposes. It is plain as day, we are tanks, not DPS. And you got totally lost when I was making reference to the Fairy Tale of giving us Utility of Raids. Never did I suggest that we have no place or utility on raids. I know what our CA do and what they bring to groups and raids. That comment was directed at the TOPIC of this thread, JUGGERNAUGHT. And let me spell it out for you this time. As Khalad and others had posted, the increased damage from CRITICAL hits from Juggernaught was INSIGNIFICANT. Thus Juggernaught is NOT some great UTILITY CA that will be usefull on Raids. Its useless thru and thru. And the fairy tale that I am referring to, is that we are dual purpose class. We are not DPS nor do we have the potential to be. DAVE 123343242 you are smoking crack with your reference to us being GuardianZerkers or wanting to be Damage Machines. Like its a light switch we can turn on and off. You too, obviously are oblivous to what real DPS classes can do. Reread paragraph one above! Now they changed Juggernaught as someone had posted. Its going in the right direction, but I must still say, that is quite sub par at this time. Juggernaught Master 1. Increases Critical Hit Chance by a whooping 27%. We already determined that the increased damage output over the duration of this CA is minimal at best. Either the Critical Chance needs to be increased significantly or the duration of this CA for the damage output to be significant at all. Also, Increases our CA damage by an unknown amount! Hmm, kind of funny that it doesnt give us any figures. Well in my own experience. I didnt see an increase in the CA damage at all, either on the CA or by analyzing log files after a fight. Is this broke, anyone noticed a boost? This could be a nice effect of Juggernaught, but then again, so could have the critical hit, but its not. And Now the detriments of the CA. Decreases Defense and Parry by 94! Wow thats like 20 levels? Hmm so now I am a 65 Zerker fighting level 67 Mobs at level 45 when using this skill! Hmm, sounds kind of suicidal to me. And furthermore, it decreases my MITIGATION by 2080! Hmm thats like going into combat naked! So now I am not only level 45 as far as my defense and parry skill are concerned, but I am basically naked as far as Mitigation is concerned. Sounds like a winning combo to me! Considering the direction it is taking now. I would say, Increase the critical hit percentage or lengthen the duration of the CA. And FIX the CA damage boost. And fix it to a substantial amount, hell its only for 24 seconds, it couldnt be too overpowering to let us do some damage for a couple seconds. Hell, the gap between us and the real damage dealing classes is so huge, I really dont think, making this spell increase our damage output is NOT going to disrupt the balance of the hierarchy. Lastly, you need to get rid of the nasty side effects altogether. In current state, the detrimental side effects of using this ability, still outweight the damage capability gained by far. Now the rest of Zerkers need to get ONLINE with this NOW! I am not telling you to agree with what changes I want to see to Juggernaught. For I am just throwing out ideas. But I just want you all to ACKNOWLEDGE that in its current form, this CA is useless and that SOE needs to FIX IT! And post about it here. We cant sit back on this one, we need to voice our opinions and make them heard. Monty
Infernus wrote: And it REALLY makes me mad that there doesn't seem to be enough Berserkers who care enough about this class to stand up for it and prevent things like this from happening. I couldn't agree more. I can't think of a single zerker that could possibly be excited about this. I will be posting a message on our guild forums requesting, not just the zerkers, but anyone to come read this thread and post their thoughts on the CA. I beseech you all to do the same. Let's blow this thread up and get some dev response here guys!
Just Read MJOLLNYR's post. And I think you have a BRILLIANT IDEA there. First of all, as I have stated many times before, the difference between Guardian and Berserkers is/should be a subtle thing, after all, we are both warrior classes with just a different way of accomplishing the same thing, Tanking. Ie, Guardians get HP BUFF, Berserkers get HP Regen (not saying these equal out, I would take the guards 800HP buff over regen) Guardians get more and better Taunts, We get more damage to increase hate. (these definitely dont equal out, as it is easier for a guard to control agro, but I wouldnt trade our damage dealing capabilities for their taunts) Guardians get group defense buffs, We get group offense buffs. The list could go on and on. As such, I agree with Mjollnyr, that INSTEAD of the detrimental Hitpoint DECREASE that was originally on Juggernaught and the detrimental decrease in Mitigation and the defense and parry skills........ Juggernaught should INCREASE our Hitpoints for 24 seconds by approx 50%. That would be a huge advantage in Tanking on raids and be more inline with not only what a Juggernaught is, BUT would be the Berserker Version of Tower of Stone, which allows Guardians to ABSORB quite a bit of damage for 3 attacks during a 15 second duration. Quite handy for Raid Tanking. Increasing our HP by 50% for 24 seconds would allow us to take the initial hits from Raid Mobs in a simiiar fashion. 50% may be too powerful in reality, in addition to the crit increase and CA damage boost, but its a good start in the right direction. Monty
I agree totally with this too Monty. Basically, when I hear the word Juggernaut I think of an amazing destructive force that can't be stopped. This spell makes us a mildly kind of intimidating guy that's gonna drop on the first hit.... Kind of way off from a juggernaut. I really could care less about the increased critical hit % I would much rather just be unstoppable... which I think also is more inline with the zerker vision as a whole. Juggernaut Must be berserk Duration 24 sec Recast 3:00 Mana cost: 50mp+50mp per tick Casts Influence of the Juggernaut While under the influence of the Juggernaut the Berserker can not cast combat arts Attack speed increased by 100% Hate gain increased by 10% Health increased by 50% Damages the berserker for 2500 hp on termination. I think that fair. It gives us a means to go tearing into a mob at the beginning of the fight as if in a delusional crazed rampage... and at the end deals a significant hit when it disapates, meaning you better have good healers with you to make sure you don't die when you come to your senses. It would be an awesome spell for those close battles where you just need that little extra push. Message Edited by SugarGirl on 03-05-200603:07 PM
If they really want to make it more berserk like, they should put the crit percentage 100% but only let it last like 6 seconds. or 80% and last 9 seconds. you get the idea.. As it is now, it's disappointing.
I hate this CA in it's current form. I think it is absolutly useless to a tank, which berserkers are. If you think otherwise your thinking foolish. However, I tested this CA out this weekend both solo and in a group just to see how much extra damage it did and how much the penalties affected me. I will never, ever use Juggernaut again when solo. I tried it on mobs I was easily killing while solo and nearly died. I was left with so few hp's that I had to pop a totem of the chamelion to make sure I didn't get agro while I regened health because one or two more hits would have killed me. As for when I was grouped, I happened to get a guild group with a pally, so I asked him to tank a little while I tried out Juggernaut. I was less then impressed by the extra damage it did. It seemed to me to not be worth giving up my role as a tank to do the extra DPS. First, I had to be berserk to use it, which means I had to land successful attacks (wasn't tanking, so wasn't getting hit) in order to go berserk. This meant I had to burn a few of my other CA's against high yellow mobs to get into a state to use it. Then once I did go berserk and used Juggernaut, 2 or 3 of my CA's were already down, which meant 2 or 3 less CA's to do extra damage. In the 24 second duration I did maybe one or two extra crits and they weren't impressive at all. Don't get me wrong, extra damage is extra damage, not matter how little it is, but again, it wasn't enough that it was going to make me move up another DPS teir. It wasn't enough that people are going to say "Oooo, we can use a zerker to fill that dps spot". As I stated before, I would never, ever, even try to use this CA while tanking. It is only an invitation to die and probably wipe the group. I don't have hard numbers to post, as I don't use a parser, but as a conclusion, in my experience, the extra damage was no where close to being worth the penalties associated with Juggernaut. This CA does not fit our class in any way in it's current form. I'm not quite sure what the dev that designed this CA was thinking it would add to our class. I'm not quite sure if the dev knows the role of a tank and how much we rely on mitigation, defense, and avoidance (parry), to keep ourselves and our group alive. I'm not putting the designer down, but I am truly left wondering if he/she knows what our main role is. I wish we could get one reply from a dev on any berserker issues, but especialy on this one. At least explain to us the thought behing this CA, so we know what was intended and could give suggestions on how it would better fit his/her vision. Message Edited by Halcat on 03-06-200609:14 AM
Just want to say that like the previous poster, I don't have hard numbers to offer, but still, after testing this CA in group, I find it totaly useless in its current form. Even without considering the absolutely crippling penalties that will kill you 100% of the time if you happen to get aggro from a heroic mob, the damage bonus is so low (sometimes I didn't crit at all for 24 seconds) that the only option for now is tot ake off Juggernaut from my hotkeys bars.
I have the Master 1 of juggernaut. I've scribed it and used it a couple of times. Other than the cool graphic of the viking helm over my head its not that wonderful a spell. Here's what i've learned: Master 1 its a 26% chance i believe of having a critical hit. So when im not tanking i'll wait till all my main CA's are up i'll pop off juggernaut and i'll prolly do a good 1000 more dmg over the 24 secs thats on a good run of it procing. However if you stack it wtih open wounds to try to increase your chances with a few more hits. Let me tell you that while your trying to get all your good CA's off to get that critical you've just pulled aggro from even the best guardians now yoru getting yoru **** handed to you cuz you have no mitigation. Forcing you to pop off all your defensive skills just so you don't die thus negating the Juggernaut art. This spell i thought had promise but i don't really see much of a use for it. Personally i like the idea of added HP. But if SOE doesnt want us to be nearly identical to Guardians defensive wise i suggest just giving us a strong DD attack along the lines of HT or Assinate.
"Since we're tanks, its assumed we'll be tanking when we cast this spell. To assume otherwise is to suggest that we're not tanks." If the devs' intentions were for us to use this spell while tanking then they obviously don't know anything about tanking. And if that's the case then I find it pretty scary that we have devs that are making huge decisions like this for our class without knowing anything about its core function. "As Khalad and others had posted, the increased damage from CRITICAL hits from Juggernaught was INSIGNIFICANT. Thus Juggernaught is NOT some great UTILITY CA that will be usefull on Raids. Its useless thru and thru." Exactly, no one in their right mind would even want to attempt to use this thing in any real raid in a DPS role. Maybe if the mob is green to you and you have a better chance at resisting it's spells because of your level and not just your actual resists. Even then I doubt it would be worth it. "Also, Increases our CA damage by an unknown amount! Hmm, kind of funny that it doesnt give us any figures." Yeah I find that funny too. It says it increases the base damage of our CA's but it does not say by how much. HMM. "I happened to get a guild group with a pally, so I asked him to tank a little while I tried out Juggernaut. I was less then impressed by the extra damage it did. It seemed to me to not be worth giving up my role as a tank to do the extra DPS." Exactly, if people think that this thing is going to make us want to give up the role of MT more often just so that we can use this spell then they are nuts. "First, I had to be berserk to use it, which means I had to land successful attacks (wasn't tanking, so wasn't getting hit) in order to go berserk." That's true, the chance to go berserk is much less when you are not taking any hits. "This meant I had to burn a few of my other CA's against high yellow mobs to get into a state to use it. Then once I did go berserk and used Juggernaut, 2 or 3 of my CA's were already down, which meant 2 or 3 less CA's to do extra damage. In the 24 second duration I did maybe one or two extra crits and they weren't impressive at all. Don't get me wrong, extra damage is extra damage, not matter how little it is, but again, it wasn't enough that it was going to make me move up another DPS teir. It wasn't enough that people are going to say "Oooo, we can use a zerker to fill that dps spot"." This is exactly what people need to realize. The only people that were happy about this spell were happy about it because they really thought that it was going to be useful to them in raids while substituing for a DPS class and that it would actually bring them up to par with teir1 DPS classes (Preds and Sorcs). The really sad part is even if it did do that it would still be unusable. Casters can nuke from max range outside the AOEs and never have to compromise their defenses to get more damage. Scouts have better defenses than mages and can get about the same DPS as them without having to compromise any of their defense and they all get at least a few ranged attacks that allow them to still be able to do some significant damage while jousting outside of the AOEs. Juggernaught forces us to become weaker than mages yet we still don't have any ranged attacks so we still have to be up close to the mob at all times to be getting any real damage, with or without Juggernaught. And that is obviously not a smart idea when fighting mobs with bad AOEs with this spell on. And unlike scouts and mages we don't get any deaggro spells either. We only have things that increase our hate. In fact the STR line of our AA's gives us an additional passive hate gain on top of the extra DPS it provides. So basically...no matter how you look at it Juggernaught is completely useless and serves no other purpose than to get ourselves and our groupsmates who actually need us (when we are tanking, which is the only time that anyone ever really needs us) killed and cause them to think that we are crappy tanks. "I'm not quite sure what the dev that designed this CA was thinking it would add to our class." It adds nothing to our class. It only takes away from it. "I wish we could get one reply from a dev on any berserker issues, but especialy on this one." Same here. Out of all the issues this class has had I think this is the worst one ever. "This spell i thought had promise but i don't really see much of a use for it. Personally i like the idea of added HP. But if SOE doesnt want us to be nearly identical to Guardians defensive wise i suggest just giving us a strong DD attack along the lines of HT or Assinate." The really sad part is that they are getting a nice high damage attack that debuffs the mob's defenses at the same time for their new marquee spell. Thats what makes this hurt so much is that other classes are getting really nice new spells and we are getting so jipped! I did hit level 65 yesterday and I do have the Ad1 scroll for this spell but I will not scribe it. I'm tempted to just so I can test it out and see how bad it really sucks first hand but I don't feel that I need to because it's so obviouse. Plus I really don't even want the thing in my knowledge book. Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-06-200606:33 PM
Well, I sent Moorguard an IM to please look at this thread. I think with the suggestions coming out and the feedback on Juggernaut, it would be a good thread for the devs. Hopefully he'll think the same thing and maybe grace this thread with a response. I do want to say that this is probably one of the best class discussion threads I've seen. I compliment all of the posters on their ideas and constructive critiques of an obviously disfunctional spell. All differences aside, it's good to know that the zerkers can come together and productively hash it out. That's a lot more than some classes can do (*cough CHANTERS!) WOOT! Post # 300!!! I am a Champion! Message Edited by SugarGirl on 03-06-200610:42 AM
I agree with everyone here on this new CA. It's worthless, and in no situation will it be of any value. I could offer up my opinions on what exactly should be changed, but it would just sound like every other post here. Actually I don't really care what it's changed to, as long as it gets changed. As it is, I'll never be able to use it anyway, so if it gets changed, there's a chance I might scribe it and actually use it without killing myself.
Please, I would really like Moorgard or someone in the know to come on here and tell us what is up with this spell. I usually respect Moorgard's words a lot too, so I hope that he would be kind enough to come here and shed some light on this very important issue and at least give us some kind of hint as to what we are supposed to do with a spell like this that provides such a small benefit at the cost of such drastic penalties and why out of all the classes in the game we are the only ones that are getting a new ability that can only be moderately useful at best in very select circumstances while everyone else is getting a new spell that can be used any time, any where, and that includes while soloing, while ours cannot or should not even be used for that if you value a debt-free life. It makes me sad that we our new spell is the only one out of all the new T7 marquee abilites that actually *requires* the person using it to be grouped with a tank that is able to keep aggro from them in order for it to be used it at all. IMO that is just plain ridiculous especially considering the fact that the class that's getting is is supposed to be a tank themselves. And as others have pointed out, the extra DPS that this spell provides (assuming that one manages to find himself in a situation were he can actually use it without himself getting killed) is not going to be near enough to make people want to give us DPS spots in groups which we would need in to have in order to even think about using it at all. It's just not going to work. Like all fighters, we already have an offensive stance that reduces our defense skill by quite a lot for some extra DPS and for me it is hard enough having to part with the extra defense, parry, and mitigation from my defensive stance and then having my defense further reduced by the offensive stance on top of that. The penalties that come with Juggernaught are so far out of the question it's not even funny. /sigh Perhaps this is our punishment for getting so hooked up in DoF with our Ancient Teachings. At least those were nice.
couldnt do that anyhow sugar. Tsuanmi buff doesn't allow for any combats to be used while its active. There's no hope for this spell they way it is now it needs to be fixed to something i might possibly use 10% of the time.
I think that's a great suggestion and would make this skill a much more useful one. As it stands now, I'm in agreement with those that feel they are better off without it. I withheld passing judgement on it until I was able to try it out for myself. I don't like it. Solo mobs seven levels below my character were able to dish out a serious beating while it was active. The conclusion I've come to is that if I'm going to use this skill, then all of our available stuns and knockdowns need to be up. The benefits do not outweigh the penalties and so far I see no advantage in using it. Some of the penalties seem fine on their own. 1560 mitigation decrease? Okay, a mob can do that to you now. Decrease defense by 70? A mob can do that, too. However, lumped together and toss in the health drain, it becomes pretty severe. To top it off, mob debuffs stack with it. Why not have it root us as well and rename it to Sitting Duck?
Yes, but you also don't have a choice when the mob does this to you. Besides that, when you are fighting a mob that can do this you usually have a healer ready to cure you so that it doesn't kill you and wipe the group/raid. No tank would ever intentionaly choose to have their Mit, Defense, and Parry lowered by the extreem amount that Juggernaut does for the benefit that it gives. Really with the penalties associated with this CA, the benefit would almost have to guarentee that the mob will die, because if the mob doesn't die, you shore a heck will. Yes, this is from a tanks point of view, because that is what we are, Tanks, NOT Dps.
