After using this skill on beta, I can say they the penalties FAR exceed the benefits. I think the health drain or the defense penalty would have been enough. As I said before, I would use this while tanking in a group setting, but I would first warn the healer(s) to be awake before I used it. Now for raid dps. Should be fine on a single target. But if you plan to use it on large AE fights with destruction/rampage and or open woulda, there had better be an other berseker tanking it, who already rampshed, open wounds and insolent gibed them or you will be eating dirt. A guardian will not hold agro from that. I regret not making more of a stink about this skill during beta, but in KOS beta I didn't not get the reactions to my feedback that I did in DOF beta. They may have had more interest in skills then due to the combat changes.
Posted this on beta board, asking them to reconsider some of the penalties, its prob too late if possible at all, but worth a shot.
You go Khalad, it's never too late. They can easily fix this problem any time they want to, either before or after the actual release. It's not like it's set in stone at any time. We just may have to bug them to do it. Of course we may have to wait until we actually have a bunch of level 65 Berserkers on live finding out how bad it sucks and start griping about it a lot before they will change it.
Exactly Infernus. I think it will change once the general population gets a chance to test it out and see how good/bad it really is. It will just take a lot of good feedback from berserkers out there to get it changed if/when it needs changing.
Haha, another thing I've neglected to mention was the fact that the ability can only be used while berserk...which even further limits its use. How often do you go berserk when you are not the MT? I know it procs off melee hits now too and not just when taking hits but the chance is still much smaller then. Like only 5%. So that means there's going to be just one extra annoyance besides the other 5 detrimental side-effects that come with using this spell and that's having to glace at your maintained spells window to see if the berserk proc is there or not before you waste time trying to cast it and if it's not up at the exact moment you want to cast it then you're just out of luck. Of course you are probably better off not casting it at all in any case but it's just the fact that if you want to try to use it at all you will be wasting a lot of your time looking for that small window of the opportunity where it might actually do some good.
for a spell that does so much detriment to oneself, asking for 90-100% crits isn't too out of the blue. Increase the crits to something like openwoulds, 100% or lower something... the hp reduction/dot is fine, but take out the def/parry penalties, then maybe you'll have a chance to actually use this skill, while mt(b/c thats really the only way you'll be berserker, when you want to use this) and just suffer a -2k to all resistances/physical.
I agree that it would probably take an increase to 100% chance for crits to make the detrimental effects of this spell even remotely worth it. But even then I doubt it would be worth it for me. I would much prefer to have the extreme detriments reduced considerably or removed altogether in exchange for a reduced crit chance if they felt that was the necessary compensation for it. The reason is because I would need this new spell to be made a lot more flexible than it currently is for it to be of any real use to me at all. Like many other Berserkers I primarily tank and solo a lot as well. Very rarely do I ever assist another tank for anything and I'm not about to start doing it more just because of this one new spell. So I know for a fact if they don't change it at all I will not bother wasting a spot on my hotbar for it and I would hate to have to accept the fact that our new T7 ability is completey useless to those of us who actually play our class the way it was intended. Another thing that really bothers me about it is that it seems like some people really believe that this new spell is a sign that SOE is trying to "steer us away from tanking" and make us into more of a DPS-oriented class. Well you know what? If that's what they are going to do then I really wish they would just come out and say so and get it over with already instead of trying to stealth it in or whatever. That way I can go ahead and start making the necessary plans I need to make in order to respec my character over to a Guardian via that new quest they are putting in the game that will allow us to do that. It's not that I want to do that of course but if these whiners get their way then I will have no other choice. It's either that or quit the game. And considering that I have no real desire to play a Guardian that may well be what I would have to do. If that's the case then I really wish they would let us know for sure so I can stop wasting my time and my money.
Yeah, the steep penalties that come along with this CA were discussed a little on the beta forums, but I'm not sure if the thread was even read by a dev. I honestly can't see me ever using this while tanking. First, it will totaly p.o. the healers. Second, it's to much of a chance of the group wiping because I will drop like a stone. I would never, ever, even consider using this while I was MT'ing or off tanking in a raid. Hopefully the devs will realize that they went over board with the penalties on this one and adjust it to something more appropriate. We can hope, anyway.
I looted the ad1 of Juggernaught the other night...whooptie doo :smileyindifferent: I will probably never bother upgrading it from that. Hey does anyone know if having lower versions of the spell, say app1, reduces the penalties along with the crit chance? If so I'm going to have someone make me an app1 of it lol.
Okay, I'll admit that I haven't read all of the posts here. I'm working... and you all talk too much However, I saw K's post and it was the same point I was going to make about this spell. At 30-40% the benefits of this spell are pretty underwhelming when you take into considerations the amount of penalty on it and the fact that crit attacks just simply aren't all that cool. Mixed with a few haste abilities (like the Fury's primal rage and some of the AA lines) it has a bit more potential...but it's definitly not a spell I am going goo goo over. One thing to keep in mind however is that the spell seems more underwhelming looking at it as a level 60 in T6 armor than it will at level 70+ in T7 armor. The mit HP and defense losses (I believe) won't scale with level, so the negatives won't be as substanial as we level and get better gear. I can also see benefits to using this spell in group tanking and raid DPS situations both in the sense that it will give us that zerkers feel on close fights of 'spazzing out' FTW. One hard part is going to be training your healers to not heal you when Jugg's up. I see this abilility gettinwasted a lot simply because it's going to get cast at 50% health.. and then you're instantly going to be at 60% health again due to overly efficient healers. In a raid situation, I think Jugg will work quite nicely. I didn't like it at first considering we never take much damage in a DPS role. But this spell actually gives us a reason to use Intercede. With Jugg, we can intercede damage down below 50%, throw up Jugg for the extra damage, rinse and repeat. There are a few other good situations I see for the spell, but really IMHO it is just a 'decent' spell with nothing too terribly amazing about it. I would be much more impressed with either A. Less negative effects associated with it or B. Increased critical damage (either with the percentage or increased damage on the critical hits themselves ... like a crit hit = 200% normal auto attack damage). That's my 2 cp Message Edited by SugarGirl on 02-24-200605:21 PM
Juggernaught is useless as far as I am concerned. The penalties of using this abilty far exceed the benefits. ie the damage output was not that significant. Either the damage out needs to be drastically increased, or the penalties need to be decreased. In its current state, I cannot see myself using this ability. And YES the decrease to mitigation is too much, even if I was wearing T7 Mythical! Its quite ridiculous to think that we need to be wearing T7 Fabled or better just so we can safely use a combat art that we get at level 65. Additionally, this is suppose to be a class defining skill, is it not? Therefore in my opinion, it should help us in someway in our main role as a TANK. Not to be a limited use ability meant to be used when we are doing something other than our main role as a tank. Or atleast something that takes my breath away, leaving me saying WOW, I cant wait to hit 65 so I can use that new class defining ability! I would like one of the DEVs to explain to us how they envisioned us using this skill, when they made it! In regards to the comments about SOE steering us away from the role of Tanking. That is asinine. Berserkers are TANKS. If you want to go play a DPS class then go, but Berserkers are TANKs and I find it quite ridiculous that after 60 plus levels some people still dont know what the role of their class is. But what really mystifies me is the moron that keep calling for more Damage Dealing capabilities in leiu of Tankability! You people smoke crack? Do you really know what you are asking for? Yeah, I think we should do more damage than we do, I am all for increasing the damage of my CAs, BUT not at the price of reducing my effectiveness in Tanking. But the problem is, people calling for us to be more DPS oriented class have no clue what the hell they are talking about. If you want to be a fighter DPS class go play Everquest1! Roll a Berserker or a Ranger, and learn what it means to be hated and generally considered useless cause you wont have the Armor Class to tank anything at all, NOR will you have the damage dealing capilities of the REAL DPS classes (Scouts/Mages). And if you think that we do, you are delusinal. An Assassin can backstab for over 1k at level 24 and a Wizard can nuke for over 1k at level 23. How about you? Have fun spending hours endlessly LFG. In closing, Juggernaught needs to be revamped. It sucks! Berserkers are TANKS! Have a nice day. Monty Message Edited by Montaigu on 02-27-200611:28 AM
Here, Here, I feel its high time that a Game Dev. explained to us the purpose of this ability, perhaps then we will all be at ease. Vladnor The Berserk 61 Berserker, 40 Armorer The Odyessy Butcherblock
Montaigu, I hear ya bro. I think the thing that ticks me off the most about it is the fact that this class as been a plate tank from day one. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Yet these crybaby DPS wannabes still expect them to change it after all this time into something totally different while totally screwing over everyone else that has been playing it the way it was intended from the start and already has their entire livelihood set up around tanking and has had it that way for over a year now. They want to take our livlihoods away from us and force us to reroll just so they can have a tad more DPS in raids or whatever because they are stuck in guild that already has an MT that won't let them tank at all or maybe they just don't like tanking at all, either way, and so they are basically useless and only serve as backup space-filler DPS and all they care about is getting big numbers in the almighty parser, which they are never EVER going to be able to do. Not when their are scouts and mages around, that is for sure. And some of them are newbs that come to the game with no experience and when they hear the word berserker they automatically think Conan the Barbarian and that's what they expect to get and they don't actually bother to do any research on it because they are too lazy and when they find out that we are actually expected to wear full platemail and use a sheild when fulfilling our duty as a tank instead of being totally naked all the time except for some animal fur g-string and a big sword they get all updset and come to our board and throw a hissy fit about it. And then they wonder why we get so hostile! It makes me SICK.
Don't feel badly about this. I think the major difference in KoS is that this ability was not offered at the outset to all level 60 Zerkers so it could be tested by a much wider player base. DoF on the otherhand offered all three of our Ancient abilities to us at level 50, ensuring a great deal more testing. Of the Zerkers who actually got to use Juggernaut, you were one of the few who even bothered to comment about it in the first place. But clearly there was nowhere near the kind of extensive testing I think we'd all have liked to have seen, and definitely nothing like the amount of testing our DoF abilities went thru where we were able to effect great changes to them before they reached Live. DoF beta was also different because you had the players on Test having access to the new abilities as well which again offered more opportunities for feedback. I honestly feel that so little feedback was offered on this ability because so few Zerkers ever obtained level 65. I'd go ever further to say this is why so little AA feedback was offered from Zerkers as well. I don't feel Juggernaut is up to par with our other marque abilities. I'm very thankful Rampage will recieve an upgrade becuase honestly it's one of the few things I'm looking forward to as I gain my new levels. Juggernaut uses that same original theory that Berserkers need to sacrifice defense in order to gain potential offense. When we were first built on that concept it simply led to a class that was not altogether fun to play except when we were extremely broken in which case it was fun due to novelty (Blood Rage proc loop anyone?). I'm surprised after a year and a half that they are still trying to push the Berserker class in this direction.
Lets look at it from a non tanking point of view, ie: offtanking or in a dps mode when you arent tanking, yeah so alot of you do tank, but i can beat not 24/7, there would be and are times when you arent always tanking. This is where this skill comes into play, 30% crit chance, plus another 22% crit chance if of course you max out your crit chance in the STR line and then you have other classes that add another 12% crit chance if of course they max that AS ability out to be more benefical for the group, which of course i doubt many people will do for the first few months before people start learnign whats best etc etc. But point is potentially, your looking at a huge bump in critical hit chance, and when you factor in Open Wounds and Rampage into this plus Frenzy, Slaughter, Berserker Rush lines plus lets not forget if one puts some AS abilitys in Accerlerated Stirke then yeah you are going to be one mean machine. Yeah we are tanks, but not as good as Guardians when we all know deep down that raid leaders will go with the best chances at winning on raids, even if its a 2 or 3% better chance at winning they will still go with it. So im happy that when im not tanking i can at least perfrom some sort of DPS.
gotta agree with the above. personally i like our ability to be usefull in 2 roles in a group and this helps big time in our dps support roll. i think alot of you are a little over zealous when it comes to tanking, its often fun as a zerker to b in a group not as the tank, you can kick out some serious numbers in the right set up. any how remember vision of madness and go down fighting
"Lets look at it from a non tanking point of view, ie: offtanking or in a dps mode when you arent tanking, yeah so alot of you do tank, but i can beat not 24/7, there would be and are times when you arent always tanking." There are many or us who do nothing but tank and solo in this game and are happy with that and have no interest in changing our posistion at all. "your looking at a huge bump in critical hit chance, and when you factor in Open Wounds and Rampage into this plus Frenzy, Slaughter, Berserker Rush lines plus lets not forget if one puts some AS abilitys in Accerlerated Stirke then yeah you are going to be one mean machine" True but then look at the huge bump in aggro that you will get from that too on top of the passive hate gain from the STR line. Then figure out how you're not going to get aggro with Juggernaught on and get one shotted every time you do the "rambo" thing because you will have no health, resists, mitigation, or avoidance to keep you alive for even a split second. Not my idea of fun. "Yeah we are tanks, but not as good as Guardian..." I disagree. I think we are just as good at tanking as them, as we are meant to be. We just have a different style of doing it. "i think alot of you are a little over zealous when it comes to tanking, its often fun as a zerker to b in a group not as the tank" Well that's all that some of us care to do and in this game that is what the Zerker is made for. Many of us are just not happy in a support role anyway at all and don't feel like being forced into it either. Personally, I don't feel that I'm doing squat when I'm looking at the mobs' rear end. And I don't feel that is the right place for a Berserker anyway. "personally i like our ability to be usefull in 2 roles in a group and this helps big time in our dps support roll." All of our offensive abilites are at least somewhat useful in the support role. Rampage and Open Wounds especially and our debuffs and group buffs as well. I never said that we were completely useless in the support role. We are just not as good in it as other classes that are meant for that role and we do much better when we are the MT like we are supposed to be. And just because we get a new spell that comes with huge cuts to our defenses is not going to make us more uber in the support role either. It seems like some people are acting like the penalties of this spell are more important than the actual benefit which I find really strange. And once again, our new ability seems to be the only one in the game that actually does bad things to us, which I don't think is fair at all. I still think it really needs to get changed. The lack of testing that was done on beta with this spell is no excuse for this IMO. I'm really not sure what would make the devs come up with something crazy like this. It just doens't make any sense. Furthermore, I still believe that any Zerker who really thinks that this new spell along with their offensive AA's is going to make them an uber DPS is a bit delusional. Yeah you will have more DPS. There is no question about that. But I think you may be forgetting that we are not the only class in the game that is going to have crits and also new abilities that increase our DPS and chance to crit. Face it, when it's all said and done the true DPS classes are still going to have far and away more DPS than we do because we are still tanks and we will always be. Yeah you will get decent numbers in the parser...for a tank. But you will never get the DPS of a Pred or a Sorc. It's just not going to happen. They are teir3 DPS and we are teir1. That is not changing. And in case you didn't notice, whenever a class from a lower teir starts to get too close to their DPS they get all cranky about it and start throwing fits about it on forums. In fact, many of them feel that we have too much DPS as it is right now. I'm sure now that's one of the reasons why procs got nerfed like they did. It wasn't just because of scouts because if that was the case they would have made a change that only effected them. They wanted our DPS to be cut down as well and they succeeded in that. What do you think will happen if it goes back up again? Honestly. Message Edited by infernus006 on 02-28-200612:34 PM
No, we are not overzealous when it come to being a tank, thats what we are! And yes, I would mind if Juggernaught was a support role CA, that maximized Damage Output, BUT that they whole point of this discussion, IT IS NOT! The Damage Output of this CA is weak at best. No one is going to say, hey lets pick that Berserker to fill the 6th spot in the group because of this CA. No, groups dont invite us to them to fill DPS roles, they invite Mages and Scouts for that. Only using other classes if no one else is LFG. They invite us to groups, expecting us to tank period. You peeps that think Zerkers are a borderline DPS classes are delusional. At level 23-24 a mage/scout class could out DPS a level 50 Zerker Oh this is a good one. We are just as good as Guardians at Tanking. I will concede that they have a slight advantage over us, but bottomline it is a SUBTLE one, that doesnt matter much, it is the best geared Tank in your guild that should be tanking. If that aint you, guess you better get that DKP up by attending more raids. And if your guild doesnt let Zerkers tank, leave them. Thats one of the first things I ask when thinking about joining a guild. Do Zerkers tank raids? If the answer is anything but YES. Then I let them know, that I am not interested. On a side not, one thing I have been thinking about a lot lately, is that our OFFENSIVE STANCE. I think it should probably be revamped a bit. In that, it is meant to help ALL fighter classes fill the support role better, for those times when your not tanking. And I am sure many of us, have been in those groups before where it is like 4 Tanks and healer and some other insignifcant class, where if the offensive stance actually filled that gap from Tank class to support class a lil better it would be nice. What I am saying here is that I think that for all fighter classes, that the offensive stances should be upgraded to increase our damage output more than it currently does. I am not trying to say that we should be doing damage like the REAL DPS classes, but maybe we could close the gap a lil more. Monty
Aside from the whole Tank vs DPS discussion I think the guff about Juggs is this: Every class has a defining ability. We don't. For everything that we do well, another class does better. Juggs does nothing to help this situation. From the standpoint of DPS, anyone of our CA's will probably do just as much damage as Juggs. For the penalties associated, and the fact that it's a 36 second buff that is only active when you are below 50% health (which is hardly never) I would expect to see the boost more around 75% haste or Double auto attack damage. A 30% chance to get an extra 100-200 points of damage out of your auto attack? That's just stoopid. I'll still use the ability because it's there, but I really wish SoE would give us one thing that was indispensible for a raid. As it stands, zerkers... even though they are awesome tanks, aren't the preferred tank. Many guilds I see will usually cut off zerker recruitment at 1 or 2 zerkers because they bring little or no value to the raid short of some mediocre buffs for the Melee DPS group.
Sugar, I agree with what you are saying, I just want to point out that you may be getting the final ability of the STR line of our AAs mixed up with Jugg a bit, because the former is the one that can only be used when you have less than half of your health. Jugg can be used no matter what your health is at but it can only be used while berserk and it comes with a huge health drain (along with the severe reduction to mitigation, resists, defense, and parry on top of that). And just for a 30% increase in chance to crit for 24 seconds. It's just laughable. Like I said earlier, even if it was a 100% chance to crit and it made every one of our hits into crit ones for that time I still don't think it would be worth it, considering that crits are not all that spectacular anyway. Message Edited by infernus006 on 02-28-200601:25 PM
