Summoners: Broken Mechanics

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Aniathor, Jan 17, 2014.

  1. Darkon Well-Known Member

    I agree it's important they live. Making them untargettable is a bad idea though.

    I'd say it'd be easier to just give them ~3m hp and equivalent mitigation to what you have.

    Imagine fighting a mob where you have to have the little debuff to hit it. Pets don't get the debuff and can't hit it. Zzz nightmare.

    Just easier to increase their hp dramatically & give them some degree of mitigation.
  2. Aniathor Member

    Every night I raid I loot more items that do not share!



    I mean with so much of the high end loot not sharing, a part of me can't ignore that this must have been somewhat intentional. In the "end game" scene summoners completely do not share stats with their pets anymore. Almost feels like TSO again.
    Zelox likes this.
  3. Estred Well-Known Member

    I don't know too much about allowing ALL item effects to carry over to Pets but really there is a huge problem behind Summoners and I am not just talking that they are supposed to have three pet choices with an AA for a fourth if I remember my ancient Necromancer of Nektulos. Did you know the Scout Pet out Damages the Mage Pet if you control it?

    I personally wouldn't allow "The Finisher" to share. Rouges don't get two-sets of chances to proc it so neither should Mages (I am comparing T2 Scouts to T2 Mages).

    I would like to see Summoner Pets have HP based on their class.
    (these are pure illustrations not suggestions of actual numerical values)
    Tank Pet: 400,000 HP
    Scout Pet: 350,000 HP
    Mage Pet: 300,000 HP
    All of these are based that should get a bonus based on the Summoner's Stamina . For example:
    Tank Pet: 8 HP per Stamiina
    Scout Pet: 5 HP per Stamina
    Mage: 3 HP per Stamina
    Assume the Summoner has 10,000 Stamina (Raid Summoner) this would be:
    Tank Pet: +80,000 HP
    Scout Pet: +50,000 HP
    Mage Pet: +30,000 HP
    These are applied befor the HP Increase AA's that Summoners have for themselves.
    *** In fact both INT and STA should have some conversion ratio between the Summoner and the Summoner's Pet.

    I do not think making the Pets un-targetable is a good idea, in fact I think it's a completely bad idea (going off Darkon's response post).

    Also please fix Dumbfire pets, they die almost instantly and so far only have one use. Fodder on the Culler encounter. Summoners awhile back were made to be more reliant on Dumbfires to give their spells more fun to use, however Dumbfires aren't fun to use it they:
    - Don't deal decent damage
    - Die almost instantly if a Mob so much as passes wind.
  4. Aniathor Member

    What are you talking about two sets of chances to proc finisher? It's an item that is up full time and effects every other class dps 100% and Conjurors 50% because it doesn't effect pets. Conjurors would gain no advantage over anyone else using the item if it did share with our pets, it would simply level the playing field. Rogues benefit 100% from the finisher neck, summoners do not. Our pets cannot proc anything anymore, I'm not sure if you missed the update that happened some time ago.

    I never suggested that dumbfire pets be untargetable, I want them to live vs. harder content as intended. I doubt soe intended to just eliminate an entire line of spells they just reworked less than a year ago.

    You must not have been playing this game for the past year after the update, because dumbfire pets are some of the best DPS spells in this game, for almost every class with them.

    Furthermore, the fact that our different pet types aren't viable choices anymore is old news, it's something that is completely irrelevant to anyone who wants to raid or group on a summoner, and is not at all related to the scope of this thread.
    Jezes and Zelox like this.
  5. Estred Well-Known Member

    I remember when pets were not allowed to proc effects. What I am saying is I support that proc-based effects should not be shared. Things that increase the Summoners Potency, Critical Bonus or Intelligence though should carry over to the pet. I may have misunderstood your original message.

    I know, I was responding in kind to what Darkon said at the top to what I can assume was someone suggesting they should not be target-able. They should however have a means to keep Dumbfires from dying instantly.

    Been playing, but not a class who uses Dumbfires (unless you think Illusory Allies is worth casting). This is why I refrained from posting in this thread for quite some time. I was going over my parses and well, noticed that pets both normal and dumbfires are lacking so I came around to add my support to getting Summoners looked at.

    Then we both need not mention it again.
  6. black11b New Member

  7. Daray Well-Known Member

    I agree with the sentiment in this thread - in fact Zindrik started one a few days earlier on Items&Equipment that has conveniently almost dropped off the first page with no replies. Summoners will always be left at a disadvantage if gains through itemisation don't approximately keep pace with other classes.

    Technically rogues don't get a huge amount of benefit out of the finisher neck either, since it only affects the pre-abilitymod amount of spells/CAs. Rogues and bards would be better off with the Grendish neck anyway, assuming the raid is competent/willing enough to increment them to 162 CB fast, but I guess each to their own. Besides, from a raidwide perspective, the more people that utilize Finisher necks over something equally/more valid for their class, the less useful it becomes for everyone. Anywho, I digress ...
  8. Koko Well-Known Member

    Yay math!
    No idea if your mechanics claim is true or not, as I don't have one and cannot test. However your logic regarding the ability modified damage is fallacious if your suggested mechanic is correct.
    Tdmg = Sdmg0*1.5~1.75 + (Sdmg1-Sdmg0)
    1.5~1.75 is the finisher multiplier
    Sdmg0 is skill damage pre ability modifier
    Sdmg1 is skill damage post ability modifier
    Tdmg is the total skill damage
    This can be simplified to
    Tdmg = Sdmg1 + 0.5~0.75*Sdmg0
    Where it can be seen the ability modifier is separate from the finisher modifier. Naturally as Sdmg0 increases, the multiplier gains are larger. However ability mod has no impact on this value.

    Ironically, a class that is 'capped' on ability mod will see a larger % increase from the necklace than a class that is not.

    On the topic of this thread, I agree that the scaling of summoners with items is very unfortunate and needs to be addressed. It will make balance much easier from a development standpoint, and less frustrating from a player perspective. If possible, this should be addressed immediately.

    As for the dumbfire pets dying to AoEs/frontals... I think they should, and that it should not be changed. It is a mechanic of the skill, and not casting them into AoEs/frontals is what separates a 'dumbfire pet skill' from another 'cast the thing to deal the damage' skill. Similar to how a scout has positional combat arts, or stealth requirements, these skills simply have additional requirements for their full potential to be met. I think this is fine. There are fights where I am certain they cannot be used effectively. I think this is also fine. There are fights where some skills are more effective than others (e.g. AoE skills). I think this adds depth and complexity to the game, which is a good thing.
    Ragna likes this.
  9. Daray Well-Known Member

    I'm not going to derail what is a perfectly valid thread trying to address a perfectly valid issue, but I guess I can elaborate just the once on that passing statement ...

    (1) I have already verified that the finisher "multiplier" does not affect the additive ability mod portion of abilities. It is, in effect, a multiplier to the base value.

    (2) I cut the majority of the quote down to the important bit, since the formula, while a rather crude representation, is correct and doesn't dispute anything I stated.

    Sure, if you have the sufficient (but otherwise wasted) mod sitting around to ensure you are still a decent way to capped post finisher-mod, then you can somewhat maintain relative gains on abilities for that sub-30% burn - and by that I mean relative to the likes of sorcerers/preds, that may run mod as 10-20% of their highest parsing individual abilities. The problem with your assumption, however, is that people on the whole aren't going to be that wasteful, given the tighter reforging constraints this expansion (even if they do decide to slightly overcap mod for the attribute gains that come with a raid setting).

    I also alluded to this, but the classes that this discussion is applicable to (e.g. rogues, bards, etc) are already more reliant on non-ability damage (autoattack, ability-based dmg procs sourced from other players, item-based dmg procs, etc) to generate their damage, so the 'proportion' of eligible damage has already diminished in value for them before you consider the above. Given the significantly increased speed with which the encounters already melt once they hit 30% due to the number of necks most guilds run, my point was that some of these classes should find a greater benefit in other options (if available), such as Tactical Genius.
  10. Koko Well-Known Member

    I agree, allow conversations and we'll continue to discuss it there!

    I'll also elaborate on two clarifications regarding the pet situation. Continuous 'pulse' effect AoEs on every encounter which destroy all dumbfire pets does negate their effectiveness as a useful skill. Kind of like enemies not having a 'back' to stab, or priests not having a detriment to cure. Not having scenarios for skills to shine, or situations for their use, is not good. Thus a few pulse encounters is fine, but all of them being pulse is not fine.

    Pet survivability issues can be fixed by sharing of character stats. Alternatively, every encounter script ever could be AoE-blockable... which sounds like a horrible idea. ^_^;;..
  11. Loldawg Member

    Perpetual is an alt sin, the conj you were playing w/ could've been macky who is one of the very best. So not a great comparison.

    And in many heroic zones, dumbfires live. In multiple raid encounters and some of the harder heroic ones, dumbfires die, and with their death, a huge amount of DPS that was supposedly given to us to make up for lack of procs. The further you go in raid zones, the more noticeable this problem is, and on some mobs, your primary pet also dies over and over, no matter what you do b/c of the detriments work.

    As far as gear goes, imagine looting something with an effect, and having it tell you that you only get 50% of the benefit that everyone else gets when they equip it. For a DPS class, that is a massive disadvantage. You put in the same time / kill the same mob, and yet you're rewarded only half of what others get. Feels bad.
    Koko likes this.
  12. keonix New Member

    I agree with every thing said here. It needs to be fixed
  13. Maledicere Member

    I agree with the OP if under the assumption summoners should be T1dps. However I doubt a serious change like this will happen before a new large game update or new xpac.

    I've been away from the game for a very long time, but Summoners were supposed to be T2 dps at launch, bringing utility that T1 didn't have to the table. Did they ever say this changed? Maybe the real issue is needing better utility. Having 5 spells to push during raids and coming out with the same dps as sorcerers seems totally fair.
  14. Buffrat Well-Known Member

    Sorcerers have just as much if not more utility than Summoners now.

    And Sorcerers aren't exactly 20 button classes either.
    Xillean and Ragna like this.
  15. Darkon Well-Known Member

    This. This is also why summoners need to be t1, because if not, as I said, they'll just be replaced by sorcerers.
    Dontpannic likes this.
  16. Athenia Well-Known Member

    +1 to everything. Pretty obvious issues here that need addressing ASAP.
  17. Sidara New Member

    AGREED! I am royally fed up of nerf after nerf and still I refuse to give up on this class but SOE, come on guys, you have to do something. PLEASE look into this, we are a dying class!!!
  18. black11b New Member

  19. Dontpannic New Member

    its stupid im about to play a sorcerer my self im useless in the higher end raid mobs even in Zenith !
  20. Treiko Active Member

    I am not sure my point was clear enough regarding pets being untargettable... bad idea for primary pets sure, I fail to see why that would be bad for dumbfires though. My point regarding primary pets is that they are a huge portion of our damage, so for them to be killed constantly or otherwise made useless is pointless and irritating. Spells being resisted is is one thing, not having access to half your tools for whatever reason is entirely different. I understand that my points only apply to heroic content, but it would appear the problems are the same, be they raid or not. Giving the pet more HP is not really the solution imo - that would require a soulburn "fix" and we all know how that could turn out. Mitigation however would change things a bit. I will not go back to playing a sorceror - I love my necro to bits... but I am also sure my wife is sick of hearing me complain every time I have to recast said pet - even when I go out of my way to stop DPS, use my call pet, stop the pet from attacking, and it still dies. It's annoying, and I must be a glutton for punishment because I really want to lvl a conjy too.