Please make raids challenging, or I’m out

Discussion in 'General TLE Discussion' started by TwoDeadly, Jul 27, 2019.

  1. Mountbatten Well-Known Member

    The sad thing about these TLE servers is they seem to die out right around where things get interesting. Most people I've played with on these servers cite anywhere from RoK-DoV as their favorite expansion, and yet the server seems to take a nosedive before it gets to that point.

    I just looked at the progression rankings for DoF. 9 guilds have already cleared it, and 9 more are like a kill or two away from clearing it. Most of the expac was cleared within a couple days it seems like, with DMP probably only taking longer due to having to farm scales. In comparison, when DoF originally launched, DMP wasn't cleared until less than a month before KoS launched. Even accounting for bugs and such, that's quite a difference. This server has to live for 3 more months in DoF, and it's already been cleared by what looks to be the vast majority of guilds raiding on the server. Of those that leave, some will come back for KoS, but not all will.

    I still think they should release a server at EoF, then start unlocking things after 3 or 4 months in 3 or4 month intervals, presuming you can get the balance right. But that sounds like a pretty tall order.

    Edit: and before people start saying "yeah but EQ2 is not all about raiding"...please go back and read the title of the thread.
    TwoDeadly likes this.
  2. Venser Active Member

    I used to advocate not starting from a later xpack, but once I played the even 1 shattered lands at 4 months and then realize after clearing dof in 5 days that we need to just skip vanilla, dof, and maybe even kos.

    If we started at kos I could see 3 months of that if tuned ok, then 3 of the next xpacks too. I'd definitely want to start any time after dof. I'd even play a mid xpack, start us at dov. But I'm sure itemization for dov+ is difficult to sort thru.
  3. Greene Active Member

    I don't think this server will last nearly as long as FG did. Pic is relevant

    [IMG]
    Xevran, Adoninilol, Somedude and 2 others like this.
  4. dreamweaver Community Relations

    We're getting close to this discussion ending folks, mostly due to how some of you are talking to each other. Posts have been deleted for insults and trolling, let's try to right this ship and have the discussion in a productive manor.
    Xevran, Siren, Geroblue and 3 others like this.
  5. TwoDeadly Member

    A few people have been mentioning that some raid mobs have been buffed to hit around 8-9k. Is this true? If so, it is at least a step in the right direction, though I wouldn't know yet if it necessarily fixes things. I still want raids to be challenging, so that there is progression, and things to look forward to (including loot progression). Even though I titled this thread with, " or I'm out," I've actually been having a good time being back in EQ2. Still want some challenging raids though, so anyone know what's up with those buffs and how much of a difference they have made?
    Cyrrena and Dude like this.
  6. Snikkety Well-Known Member


    I honestly believe the best possible TLE they could do is start at RoK for 6 months, then do 4 month expacs and lock at DoV. (With the exception of SF being 2-3 months instead.) At that point, allow voting on both mid-content and expacs, such as first a vote to unlock Drunder at a certain point and then to open up the next expansion. This coupled with some actual incentive to run older content rather than just grind to 80 and then hit RoK would help with the longevity of the server immensely, in my opinion. I think so far the closest one to having it right was Fallen Gate, with actual incentive to run heritage quests for those of us that primarily played on live servers. I enjoy TLEs but since I started playing on live again after my long hiatus years ago from DoV onward, I've seen 3 TLEs die, and a fourth isn't far behind with how Nagafen is looking. I think that as far as TLEs go the longevity of them is the most important aspect, especially in a game this old.

    Also I just want to play DoV as current content again, is that so wrong?!?!
  7. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    Hey.

    Since you're here, can we get any information regarding we're discussing. News, feedback from developers.


    Communication.

    Anything? Just curious because this thread has been going for awhile, and the in general distaste for DoF raiding for nearly a month now and we haven't seen any developer response. Since you're here, any chance we can get an update mr. community manager?
    dirgenoobforreal and TwoDeadly like this.
  8. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    I agree with this post, nearly all the content prior to RoK/TSO will never be difficult because the game wasn't build around script difficulty, but rather other means which can't be applied because game mechanics/stats are so different.

    EoF HAD hard scripts, but they're all destroyed with later updates unfortunately.

    I really have no idea why these keep starting in t5. It's not fun, i'd love for devs to raid/do heroic content on TLE for the whole 8 months of T5/DoF and let us know how much fun they have.
  9. TwoDeadly Member

    But this thread is about how to make raiding challenging on this TLE, not some fantasized TLE that doesn’t exist. It may be true that there are few mechanics to raid bosses in these first few expansions, but it is also true that despite that, that at one time these lowly mechanized raid fights were still a challenge (thus giving way for progression). The question is how could these lowly mechanized raid mobs be made challenging again, and how could future raid bosses in this TLE be tuned so that they too are challenging. I’ve been hearing that some raid bosses have been buffed to hit quite hard. Is that enough, I don’t know. I also read a suggestion from someone on one of these threads saying that maybe raid bosses could be buffed with additional dot abilities, making it more challenging for healers. Another guy posted the exact damage difference between raid mobs and heroics, which is good stuff. I feel like that’s the direction that this convo should be headed if we hope for some challenge and some semblance of progression. And if they really can’t do much to fix this expansion (which I don’t see why not), then hopefully more can be done to properly tune the upcoming expansions.
    Cyrrena likes this.
  10. Tharrakor Well-Known Member

    Its sad times we live in when ppl think that the paying customer should offer the solutions to the company who gets paid, by us, to play their game. Constructive criticism have nothing to do with offering solutions, its about giving feedback both negative and positive and then be detailed about whats good and bad. This thread is an example of constructive feedback because it couldnt be more detailed or clear of what the problem for many is on the current TLE server. Its too easy. Simple and honest, there is nothing more that u can say about that without getting silly about it. 6 man grouping raid content is example enough.
    TwoDeadly likes this.
  11. Somedude Active Member

    Its not even as much as making them difficult. Part of the reason they are not difficult as underlying game mechanics like mitigation are completely busted.

    I've provided the details in other threads, but when mitigation between cloth and plate make no difference to how hard mobs hit, its a basic game mechanics issue as much as anything else.

    Unfortunately, FG represents the best tuning we've had so far. It had its issues, and the P2W was a pain for some, but the play experience was better and the game mechanics were the least broken of the 3 TLEs.
    TwoDeadly likes this.
  12. TwoDeadly Member

    I don’t get that, how the TLE’s are so different. If FG was better tuned, why wouldn’t they have just applied the same things to this one? And good on you for pointing out the mitigation problem.
  13. Mountbatten Well-Known Member

    The problem with copying FG would be that everything would be seriously overtuned, since Kaladim has no focus effects, familiars, spells above master, and no chaneler class. Disabling chanelers was probably the main reason things are as they are now. They would have had to compensate for no longer having the damage intercept to fall back on. In theory, it was a great idea - I think the Kaladim ruleset is far superior to FG's, but in practice it seems they may have gone a bit too far when nerfing the content. As Atan said, the play experience of FG was far better.
  14. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    I remember when channelers came out, and I distinctly remember that beta and thinking hmmm, this class intercepts more damage than any other healer in game provides temporary damage reduction's, this is totally gonna not be a disaster.

    I was right, that they just negated every other healer in game, except druids in that expansion.

    I then remember Kander saying channelers would be "tuned" for FG right before DoF and nothing happened. Then for the next two years I was forced to run one or two of this class that can easily be botted/boxed in my raid force, which was not fun; and communicated as not fun

    Regardless the developers have all the feedback that they honestly need and can ask me for feedback whenever they want to, it won't happen; but it's all on these forums.

    Itemization feedback, what stats are good for which classes and why. I remember posting about gear having 0.1% flurry and 11 haste as its equivalent. Yet 0.1% flurry was less than the overcap conversion on haste on TLE servers. The same goes for ability casting speed. Any conversation? No.

    Block Chance/strikethrough. Tanks getting 10-15% avoidance reports on mobs because they just strikethrough every single block possible. This was communicated to them, also the fact that brawlers are useless because shadows endline was moved to the end of the prestige tree, and only guardians really have multiple long duration stoneskin/strikethrough immunity buttons. Even berzerker's could outheal paladins/sk's. This was all communicated. Any fixes? No.

    The block chance issue is primarily around the fact that protection on shields to uncontested block doesn't really line up. You need around roughly 7000 protection to be able to cap your uncontested block in this game right now on TLE's. For example this takes nearly 300% block chance once you hit around TSO/SF. Which isn't even really possible given how itemization is right now, and how low protection values are on shields. What is the purpose of this? If you look at the uncontested block on a brawler, brawler's need around 160% block chance to cap uncontested block assuming they have master defensive stance, and the minimum deflection from the shadows tree.

    Mitigation also just suffers from the same issues as block chance does right now. You need an insane number of physical mitigation to cap out at level 80 like 35k. Even with our tanks wearing full mit increase gear, and double ill will's you saw basically a 3% reduction versus a same level target on paper, and negligible differences in average incoming hits in raids. It's just simply not possible to even get near the maximum value of this stat. Why is it that fabled gear typically has a higher mitigation value yet that's just thrown out the window to be irrelevant?

    Class balance is actually decent on this server at the moment, bruiser/crusader's are fairly useless at the moment, SK is decent, but doesn't bring anything to warrant having one in raid over a mage dps especially as itemization gives us the ability to hit 50-60% casting speed with just gear/monk alone. Paladin's actually get out-healed by berserker's come RoK and out tanked in every category on the way up, better death saves, snaps, aoe threat. etc. The only thing paladin had going for it was the group heal with the ward attached, which is nice but, incredibly unnecessary considering they can't actually take damage half as well as a zerker.

    Healers are fine, dps is fine except rogues at this point making predators useless. Dirge's are kinda useless now that confront fear is nerfed, and jcap on tanks + harmonization for tank/healer temps adds more to avoidance report than percussion, but i'd still run one for different color music notes around one group.

    This has really turned into a long winded discussion on tank mechanics and how they're terrible. But it's all just reiterated information that falls on deaf ears.

    I don't think we can even begin to have a conversation on challenging content in this game without the above issues being addressed. Why does giving my tank another piece of gear do nothing for his incoming damage, why does getting him a new shield bring nothing. Why does giving my healer another 1% potency possibly help. Why does only stacking classes with 100% avoids actually do anything.
    Kalika, TwoDeadly and Zenji like this.
  15. TwoDeadly Member

    I haven’t been around for about 9 years.... how did it get so bad? I don’t know much about what your talking about but it doesn’t sound good. One thing I have noticed, is how much less damage auto attacks do.... pretty well rendering haste, multi and dps useless compared to reuse, etc. Makes for some harsh times when casters get mad at scouts for needing on reuse, when they think they should be needing on above mentioned stats. Seems the game is in a mess.
  16. Snikkety Well-Known Member

    "Players need different stats now than they did 9 years ago. This game is a mess."

    That's awfully dramatic.
    Cyrrena likes this.
  17. splatterpunk28 Well-Known Member

    I think they'd be better off with perpetually locked TLE servers than what is happening due to devs trying to reinvent the wheel every time and never getting things very balanced, people quickly get frustrated or bored and move on.

    Example: Have an EoF server, PVP-enabled, but optional (get flagged in cities and can't be disabled for 2 hours or something). Once you are level 70 you get mailed a free bauble to transfer to next server, which is a locked server for characters 70-80 in TSO (free bauble to go to live). If successful and sustaining reasonable population 6 months later, do some in game polls for BGs or to open up a third 80-90 server. There would be 2-3 sustained TLE servers to give pvp players, new players or nostalgic veterans a path to progression or to just live in. Basically, people can progress when they want or not at all and can count on fully tuned content that has special events just like live.
  18. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    This post is incredibly wrong for a myriad of reasons, not only the fact that that you believe auto stats aren't as valuable as reuse (in t6) but also the idea that you have no idea what I posted above, yet feel as if you can begin let alone continue to post in a thread about raid difficulty without understanding basic mechanics.
    Snikkety likes this.
  19. TwoDeadly Member

    blah blah blah, tired of arguing with you guys. just a buncha egotistic, "look at how much I know" bs. There is a problem with auto attack stats when auto attacks do only about 25% of some rogues dps, whereas combat arts do 65% of their dps. It becomes very clear which area you should be spending your multiplier slots on, and it isn't the 25%. I don’t even think you realized that I was agreeing with your post about problems in the game, but I've never claimed to know everything about raid mechanics, so if you want a trophy for knowing what you know, have it and stick it right wherever you would like. I'm just saying, like many people, that things should be balanced and challenging, and the idea was to get some conversation that might catch the devs attention and lead to worthwhile changes. But I'm not gonna keep arguing with you folks who just want to be like, " Look at me and how much I know". “ I know more than you.” It's a waste of time and it’s pathetic. And it will achieve nothing.
    Cyrrena and Dude like this.
  20. Ahdul New Member



    I hear if you shut auto attacks off Combat arts are 100% of your parse. That way you get full benefit of your non auto attack stats, right?

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