Birna wrote: Spartans and some Celts went to war wearing little to nothing. In fact, people didn't wear "proper" metal armors until medieval times and that was VERY few people, like the wealthy and royal people. With the time era that a fantasy game is normally placed in, if they stayed true to the time frame, we'd ALL be wearing cloth with a smattering of leathers and fur and if we were lucky, the odd metal piece that got handed down or scavenged. I personally prefer THIS world and its fantastical ideals on warfare and armoring. I'd like to see those ideals expanded upon and give us the options that even yesteryear, real world fighters had available to them (and with some civilizations was in fact their only or preferred option); little to nothing. But with it being a fantasy game adding a twist, it actually LOOKS GOOD.
Boltarr wrote: I have no direct quest or links but it was said by devs at the fan fair, on the forums, and an eq2 stratics dev chat. They said it's a major change that's been in the making for a lonnnnnng time, it is to make different armor styles easier and faster, better performance, more appealing armor, belly buttons, toes, fingers. The Sarnak are the first race we see that have this Skeletal Revamp, and those at fan fair saw the human male ones. That pretty much sums it up drago.
Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote: You're rather forgetting about the bronze age when there were armors worn. You're also using fantasy depictions of Spartans (i.e. the really cheesy movie from last summer) which are wholly inaccurate. Based on the architecture, clothing, and other clues, the game setting is actually closer to -after- the Terran Renaissance and quite a bit after the Medieval which most assume and an even longer time after the pre-medieval which I think you're presuming. From the architechture, level of technology, clothing, and other such, it's actually closer to a time barely before the advent of guns. Most fantasy literature I've read (including all of Tolkein's works) are also in that nebulous time of post-Renessaince/pre-guns and most definately NOT pre-Medieval, Roman, pre-Bronze age, or anything even close to that as you assumption most would be wearing cloth, leather, fur, etc. Nearly all fantasy art, even the Pre-Raphaelite art (which is the Victorian ideal of fantasy set in semi-Medieval time with characters from Medieval times like Arthur, Genevieve, Lancelot, etc), is also set in that nebulous time with frequently with overtones of Medieval. Heck, even the fantasy stories written in the Medieval era (i.e. the Arthur stories) aren't even set in a time without -metal- armor, horses, swords, etc. Even just taking the contemporary fantasy art of Boris and the others, books like Conan, etc, they, too, mix the time periods liberally with far more of the Medieval -metal- armor and swords mixed in with the "romantic" skin, leather, and furs. It has nothing to do with an exact time period and everything to do with a perception of "sexy" (all fantasy art does.. even fantasy art painted in the 1400s).
I agree, the armors could be better here, but its a style over substance issue really. WOW has a lot of flash limited amount of content , people level up multiple characters to max level and then get bored with limited amount of things to do. True Eq2 has delivered a massive amount of content, has more character races, classes and an incredible amount of specialization to your character thru AA's , appearance tab etc.. in comparison WOW is limited by content and customization. WOW is good at the whole min / max thing, minimal amount of detail and maximum amount of flair,zoom in on a character model its not as detailed as a armor set or model in EQ2 . Again the debate really shouldn't be between games here, I think SONY will get to improving the look of the game, I just have to say its amazing how much more there is to do here vs other games.
Which was overtly, elaborately based on an actual event in history (Gotta love Frank Miller!)... But your assumption Rijacki (on what I'm "using" ), is wrong. I could go into more detail but it would go against the board rules on keeping things clean (Spatans don't paint a pretty picture society although I've always found it awe inspiring). My point was, Birna asked who went to war in a bikini and there are SEVERAL examples throughout history showing peoples going to war in far less than even a bikini or might as well have been. I don't know about you, but I don't see all of us (our characters in the game world) as wealthy or royalty so do not see why we would be the chosen few to afford to wear full metal armors. The fact we do, and can, only lends credence to this being a fantasy game. NEVER did I say we weren't in a time of metal armor, horses, swords etc. But in those times, we wouldn't be the fortunate elite to benefit from those things. Not in my POV anyhow hence why we'd all be in regular clothing, leathers and furs with the odd piece here and there. But, at least we agree on one thing, fantasy = looks good/sexy.
Based on the in-game clues, we can assume that norrath is a world where magical forges can pump out a full set of plate armor every 10 minutes, and chunks of pure metal pop up in every field over and over with limitless supplies. So there's no reason for any shortage of armor in norrath. But more importantly, magically imbued cloth can be stronger than any steel. And chainmail bikini's crafted from enchanted metals can protect the entire body despite appearing to only cover a small part of it. And even more importantly than that, EQ2 is a social game. It's not all about nonstop hacking and slashing, it's also about hanging out with your friends and having fun. And if people have more fun hanging out in casual clothes, then what is the harm in allowing them to do so?
Foolsfolly wrote: Oh I am totally and completely for more.. umm.. interesting outfits available. Heck, there's a gi like piece of armor in RoK that anyone -except- a mage can wear (it's leather). It's VERY annoying since it's something that would look extremely cute on my arasai coercer. By the time I can get my dirge through all the RoK content to have a chance at getting it, it will likely be made bruiser only. My dirge is an Erudite with incredible runes all over her body and it really is a shame there's no way to show them. BUT.. I wouldn't want the "bunny fur bikini" effect to be tasteless nor required. With appearance slots, though, it wouldn't be. I'm sure it's been brought up before, but I'll mention it again: At Fan Faire, Lotus did talk a little about the new models (and we got to see the human male because he wanted to show us fighting with a sword he demonstrated the building of). One of the things he mentioned specifically is the "underware" on the current models (not the white rags, the white or black areas that cover.. umm.. naughty bits when all clothing/armor is completely off, like what happens with some graphics glitches) not allowing them to display certain skin areas and thus limiting them in armor styles especially for certain races (i.e. the white undies showing on gnomes and halflings while wearing the blue elaborate status dress). One of the things also addressed by the model/skeleton changes is more flexibility with that "underware". Lotus said, with a particular lilt in his voice, that it will allow them to make more revealing and varied armors. Frankly, all the debates and the like demanding sexier armor, etc, are moot until the new models are released (soon soon, I hope!). The old models cannot much of anything different. IF, though, after the new models are live and the armors, etc, are still -only- fully covering except for bruisers, then we can (and I will) complain very loudly. (I still can't understand why you can have monk gis that reveal a bit of... skin... but almost no other clothing/armor that reveals only as much as a gi does. I also am very disgruntled by the one I saw that is equipable by all classes -except- mages. That should have been cloth or there should be a cloth version with the exact same look if they didn't want those stats available to mages, or have one that's completely stat free!)
Deja vu... the whole thread is redundantly repetitive. The key points are: We want more style. We want more choices. We want sexier. We want variety. We want want customizations. As well as... We don't want anything that is unrealistic. We don't want anything that is WOW. We don't want sexy. We don't want anything that isn't historically accurate. Hmmm I think I may have forgotten stuff but the keys are there. It degrades quickly from an expression of what people want to see in the game to an argument about realism/historical accuracy and so on which really has no point in the game. Realism is a totally subjective point of view when one of the slogans for the company producing the game is "You're in our world now." (Well something like that.) A level of realism is fine but really if you're gonna be nitpicky about how effective the mitigation on a chainmail bikini is you might want to look around in the game some. And historical accuracy is a rediculous argument. The game isn't Earth. Its Norrath.
I'd suggest realism is never to be considered ridiculous. Everything starts from it. The devs are human. The come from Earth. Everything starts from what they'be been inspired by and done so through their human senses, and express it through the same. And in-game, we have humans. They've got two eyes and all that humans malarky. The world has gravity, a sun, water, plants and all that toot. The setting follows some of our realism, it can't be eshewed to excuse anything. We, the players, are human, when we look at something an untold number of calculations are going on in our head, it's how we know at a glance upon looking at those comedy weapons the Neriak guards tote in one hand are impossible. When most things could work, the few that don't truly jar. Those vanguard front waist skirts that'd prevent walking beyond a shuffle, warg spiked saddles whose spiked go through a cloak I'd also suggest poo-pooing realism as we have mages casting fireballs or undead walking around as a dodgy argument. These things are not a holistic package. Things are not mutually exclusive. A person can like beef but not pork, even though they're both meat. Just as a person can like some aspects of this fantasy setting but not be willing to see just any old fantasy cliche brought to bear. The rationale that magic bits of cotton can protect aswell as plate armour are fair enough. But, plate could get the magicking that the cotton got for increased protective ability too. Better armours need to look better than those that aren't. With a few exceptions to the rule to highlight a truly fancy item, whose magical protection is extraordinary (HQ's). This setting, Norrath and EQ2, it has it's imagery and rationale for how things work. And it does pretty much work. But things that don't stand out as wrong (those wacky swords of the Neriak guards). More options and styles. Gods yes. There's no argument against it. And plenty of means to bring it in. Factions merchants, dropped and quest rewards. Especially worthy when they relate to the zone, person or race they come from. Kilts and furs from Everfrost etc. Sexier, sure. As long as it conform to Norrath and EQ2's imagery. And there's plenty of sexy in that to explore. Lamias and Dryads have been doing it long enough. But sexy is just on descriptor. Beautiful, gorgeous, pretty, solid, slutty, elegant, attractive - all evocative descriptors, and relative, but all equally deserving of merit. Unrealism. It's subjective rather than an absolute. But as long as it adheres to the same kind of relative unrealism the rest of the setting has then we're on a winner. Lineage armours aren't any flavour of realistic, are as much sci-fi than fantasy, couldn't work, couldn't move or protect, and would be counter to the imagery we have already- WoW armour is unrealistic to the point it's comedic and more reminiscient of Fisher Price or Gwar than armour. Real world armour, there's loads of different styles and very few of them are dull - there's certainly a wealth of our worlds imagery yet to be tapped. And then modified to reflect the imagery of where it comes from. A suit of armour with simple lines coming from the solid Dwarves, yet with the trim tricked out in an appealing contrasting colour. A suit of armour with curving lines coming from the Elves, with trim containing gems to provide an appealing contrast of colours. Stylish leather designs from halflings with stylish stiching. Leathers from various more primitive cultures with new stylish uses of studs and banded metal strips. This setting, in many ways, is high fantasy, but in a look and feel way much of it looks like it could work. Realism is nodded at. Realism can and should continue to be nodded at to retain the integrity of its imagery, which in no way is mutually exclusive to looking good. All those recent dark ages and medaeval movies have included a load of lush looking armours, and based upon/inspired by realism. We've started to see some new weapons come into the game via RoK. Gorgeous weapons. Simple weapons. Some of them couldn't work but don't look like it. They comform to the imagery of the game and are evocative of where they come from. They're winners. Armour and clothes remain uninspiring, but who knows, one day, they might make some truly new options and get lucky in choosing a dev to colour them than understands colours. Rather than whoever it was highlighted the red zerker class armour by adding white instead of a white/yellow highlight. Or setting purple next to green (they're opposite colours and couldn't be less appealing). Or using neon colours as seen on that radioactively green RoK dagger (I swear, it should apply a self DoT on it and make you bald upon logging in next time).
By the way, most of the "new weapons" introduced in RoK are exactly the same as the weapons that were introduced in the original eqlive Kunark. I certainly enjoy seeing things I remember from eqlive, but lets not go calling them original in any way =]
Wyrmypops wrote: I removed some of Wyrmypops's post to focus on the points that I wanted to address. We clearly agree that adding more armor styles would make the game more fun, and we play the game for entertainment rather then education or income. So, what really matters is what would make the game more "fun". Realism is not ridiculous. Nor is a desire for a "realistic" look to the game. And the recent, and highly successful, Lord Of The Rings movie trillogy also shows that realism and fantasy are not mutually exclusive. So what matters is what would make the game more fun. Many players, such as yourself, prefer a very realic look for your game. We agree, you should have the ability to choose that for your characters. Yes, the example armors from Lineage II are not realistic. A strickly realistic armor style just happens to be one that I (and some other posters) do not prefer. We do not agree that you should have the ability to choose a realistic/medieval look for our characters.
And, a more fundimental argument as to why sexier armors/costumes belong in the game . . . Original Intro Cinematic This implies that they were always intending to give the game a different "look" then they came out with. We also know from the old betral quest that Antonia Bayle really dresses like that. So, I can't see how the look does not actually belong in the setting.
Oh believe me, I'd embrace the addition of any and all new armours for the reason of the being additional options. I may not equip them all, but I'd donate a lung for the options be made to the playerbase (not my own lung, obviously). Whatever evocative word (slutty, beautiful) someone could use for them (as a subjective rather than absolute though, to someone else a different descriptor would be used), realism just has to be a starting point due to the devs and us being human and the gameworld operating under the imagery it does. But from that starting point, branching off into fantasy is more than acceptable, it's neccesary to reflect the imagery of wherever it's to come from. Such as primitive barbarian, sweeping elven or solid dwarven designs. But that branching off into the fantastic, that journey and destination of the design has to adhere to the imagery of the game so as not to jar the sensibilities and destroy the integrity of the setting. There's so many talented scribblers in the community, it'd be great to be able to pass along some design ideas. But I guess that could actually be detrimental to the process, having to go through a load of old toot to get to some gems. I'll trust the devs to get it right, eventually.
The Spartans were the first to eroticize male athletics by introducing nudity, as well as oiling the body during exercise to enhance its beauty
Dylara@Crushbone wrote: I'm still wondering when i'll see the bikini clad chicks battling dragons and ogres. I have a feeling my dreams and fantasies are crushed because it would give EQ2 a Mature Rating.
