All dressed like Grandma's?

Rainy wrote:

Please link documentation from a dev that states exactly this. I have a very strong (and supported) feeling that you are going to be sadly disappointed when ROK is released.

Ahlana wrote:

But it's better to force everyone to dress like grandmas too? How is this any different? For that matter, how is showing a shoulder bad? Currently, EQ2 already has an outfit that not only shows shoulder and cleavage but belly and the full length of legs as well. It's called female formal wear. There's another one that shows shoulder, cleavage and belly. It's called a gi. What you don't want to see is already in the game. If someone is wearing something that you don't like, just don't group or talk to them. They'll get the idea. People aren't totally dense, though they can seem that way at times.
TBH, while I see a few wanting their "flesh hanging out all over," most people want something sensible but still showing a little skin. I see nothing wrong with that, but apparently you do because you're willing to punish everybody over the sins of a few. BTW, this overhaul is happening whether you want it to or not. Will it change the armor currently in the game? Not really (or so the devs indicate), so in essence, it's not "forcing" anything upon you. It's just adding more options.

Sapphirius wrote:

I would prefer that aprroach but really don't think the devs would do it lol.

Sapphirius wrote:

I find it humours how time and time again people are saying I want to force everyone to dress as a grandma. Are you ever reading what I am writing? You know where I say that you can view the game as you like... and I can the way I like. Hence not forcing anyone into either catagory. I believe I have said that since my very first post. It is called a compromise that does not effect your game play or mine. You are the one saying that it must be the way that ALL must have it your way. Not I, I say TO EACH THEIR OWN. It is a common phrase and I am sick of repeating it for those that can not grasp the simplicity of a compromise that allows both sides to enjoy the game their own way. You not forced to look like a grandma and me not forced to look "fleshy" or anything else if I so choose. I have tried to use the Soga to Regular model example but apparently it is a hard concept to grasp.

what I had read, and maybe it was strictly rumor, but was that we were basically getting the regular models with a soga head/regular head choice. if I'm wrong, that's fine.

as long as I don't have to use that hidious claymation, fatfaced cheeto stuffing startrek fanboi with vulcan ears version of the elf that is the regular model.

the reason I don't want your way, as to being able to basically click off any armor outside of what we have, is that it'll take the devs 2-3 times longer to make anything. because they'll make the 'fluff/skank' version, and then have to make a 'grandma' version as well. the whole point of the new skeleton is to cut down on that time, and be able to make more appealing armor. (though the system loads and lag are a big issue for it, but those are the reasons for this discussion)

it's also the same reason why I dislike people being able to see me as a claymation. I hate the idea of having to make my character twice so that I at least look something like I want to to everyone.

Qandor wrote:

Ahlana wrote:

The question is "Are YOU reading what you are writing?" Because it appears that you are not. Either that, or you aren't thinking things through very clearly. Yes, I CanNOT control whether or not someone looks at me in SOGA or non-SOGA. HOWEVER, I CAN control how I appear in SOGA, so in essence, I STILL have control over how I look on YOUR screen.
Giving you the option to just turn off fluff armor means that I will have ZERO control of how I look on your screen. You will continue to see me in bright green pants, blue sleeves, red chest, puke yellow gloves and bracers, etc. What I've read from you was not a compromise. What I read from you was not a "to each their own way." What I read from you is, "Anyone who wants sexy or stylish is a skank (that's YOUR word there that YOU used), and I don't want that in my game." If you wanted people to get the bigger picture of what you were saying, perhaps you should have used language that wasn't quite so strong in your reasoning.

Rikshanthas@Lucan DLere wrote:

I also think the idea that Antonia's outfit isn't modest is wrong. she looks nothing like a playboy model, she looks to me like a person in such power would look like it they also were a powerful sorceress, which Antonia Bayle is. (shown in the EQ2 original trailer)

if a congresswomen were to walk into that building in a two piece bikini, yeah, we'd probably get a chuckle out of it. but a congresswoman can't throw lightning bolts out of her mic if she saw fit either. in fact, if you want some real examples of that kind of outfit on a ruler...Egyptian queens wore similar outfits.

the problem is using today's fashion on a world that is closer to the era of Rome or Sparta, or ancient Egypt. take a look at the spartan army, or the roman army. some of the most dangerous and powerful military forces ever. and they didn't wear even half of the armor our characters do in battle.

Alexander and Genghis Khan nearly conquered the world. and they didn't wear full platemail and chainmail either, anymore than their soldiers. hell, I would roll a barbarian right now if I coudl put him in a spartan warrior outfit. I think that would look damn good.

Sapphirius wrote:

I have a question, mostly for Ahlana. And mainly because I'm seeking clarification without an emotional charge (which I am detecting even through the electronic walls). The 'burkah' and 'skank' descriptors are meant to be just that - descriptors of the extremes this thread is swaying - like a pendulum. Anyways...

Let's say that you decide to use the 'burkah' option, whereby you can view that lithe high elven brigandess in attire other than what is in her Appearance slot. Maybe its her stat armor, maybe its something transposed from your slots, whatever. You have effectively 'turned off' the 'skank' option as far as what you are viewing is concerned.

Does that brigandess (or anyone else, for that matter) have the same option, namely to transpose the 'skank' factor onto you, to view you as they would like? Maybe a sleeveless, low-cut, slick black leather halter fastened to 'painted-on' leather pants by a 9" diameter hammered steel ring over the belly, with high-heeled boots of adamantine-studded blood leather? Even if the idea disgusts you to the very core of your being, would this be fair?

No, I'm not trying to be facetious or pick a fight. Basically, do you support everyone being able to see what they wish to see? That means me, you, Sapphirius, everyone. We all see what we would want to see, regardless of what the other person is wearing and intends for others to see?

You don't want to view 'skanks'. They don't want to view 'burkahs'. As long as A can see what A wants regardless of what B is actually wearing, this is good? Because to me, apart from letting people whatever they wish in the manner they wish (which is what I would like to see, along with an expanded amount of options across the sartorial spectrum), that seems to be the only fair way to do it.

-----------------------------------------(Here endeth the questions, and beginith the tirade. Thou hast been warned)---------------------------------

If we were to trumpet 'realism', everyone plays a human (because non-humans are not realistic). Period. The streets are running with filth (yes, in Qeynos, too). If you don't take the 'Hygienic' trait, you have a random chance of contracting some sort of nasty malady, say, every tenth time you log in (taking it means the chance is one every 25 log-ins or so).
There is no magic. For that matter, there are no combat arts, either. Everyone dresses functionally (not necessarily conservatively), and it comes down to who strikes first, who's weapon gets through their opponent's defenses first, and who manages to gut their opponents first.

Crime and slavery are rampant, the Overlord is a fictitious myth created by a junta that secretly controls the Freeport Militia, the Academy of Arcane Science and the Concordium are simply universities where people with a halfway decent education go to have a decent conversation away from the common riffraff, the Celestial Watch and (moreso) the Dismal Rage are hidebound, fanatic centers of religious intolerance that conduct inquisitions, and so on and so forth.

All of this is predicated on the possibility that anyone is actually even alive after Luclin explodes, and that the planet's surface is not a ruined, charred wasteland - on Earth, this would be an Extinction Level Event (ask the dinosaurs and their measly asteroid...we're talking about a rather large moon going up like a high-powered shrapnel bomb and raining molten death down on Norrath). There's 'realism' for you.

The queries were posed in honest curiosity....the tirade against 'reality' is borne out of a frustration with a tired, decrepit argument that is basically, to my mind, the disease of Political Correctness trying to commit ideological buggery against the online roleplaying community - and even more frustrating, those advocating it aren't even aware that's what they're doing! No, I am not accusing anyone in this thread of that (please understand that before you accuse me of it)...but its been done so often in these forums, time and again, over and over and over...

Please...for pity's sake...please don't use 'realism' as an argument any more, people of Norrath. Just...don't. Please.

You probibly should not have combined your reply to Ahlana and your rant in the same posting. I doubt that you helped.
That said, she has already answered your question about you (or I) being able to put her character into a "chainmail bikini" in an earlier post (http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...=383908#4403506)
Aside from that though, there is some practical considerations.

• In order to prevent cheating, MMO providers cannot afford to allow client side modifications to their graphics.
• Making the server download multiple datasets for every player (which the game already does for SOGA models) would only increase LAG.
• Finally, many players are also very particular about how their avatar appears in game. (Yet another objection to the SOGA models.) I doubt that these players would be happy at all about another player being able to decide how their character was dressed.

LordFyre wrote:

Indeed, which was precisely the reason I separated the two with a distinctive point in the page, where the distinction was easily made. Making two posts would have achieved nothing different, they both would have been there. I will admit that it is possible to construe finger-pointing, save the fact that I specifically made it clear that I was not finger-pointing. Had I not considered that, I would have simply made the entire post without the obvious distinctive dividing marker. That is, after all, why it was put there.

As to answering the question - yes, you are correct, she did, and I apologize for not thoroughly reading through. It was very easily missed in the overall tone of the debate of the thread, where it appeared that no one had answered the question. Unlike the format of the post, this was a mistake that should not have been made.

I cannot speak to cheating from client side, as I am not precisely sure how one would use something on their own computer to affect the game mechanics. I have heard tales of patches that alter visual characteristics from a client-side perspective, but even if I were so inclined to download something that would likely have a questionable and possibly detrimental effect on the way my computer operates (i.e. some odd virus or similar), I admit I am unsure as to how that would enable one to cheat. From a purely graphic standpoint, it changes appearances, and little else.
As I said, I do not have any information on how this would be the case. I am not saying you are wrong - I am saying I don't see how.

Also, I do not understand how a client-side modification would increase server-side lag. Again, this is an admission of not knowing why this would be the case, nothing more.

As to how people are particular about how their avatars appear in-game...of course they are. That was one of the prime reasons behind this thread, the reasons posted the way they did, and the positions they took while making their posts. You are correct about some people's objections to the SOGA models, which is why I was relieved to hear - in rumor, at least - that people will be able to choose the heads they want for their characters. While it will mean I will be forced to look at someone who prefers SOGA graphics for their elves (which I personally think are abominable), the fact that they get to choose far outweighs any other consideration, including what I do or do not like.

And that is one of the biggest points to be made. The individual playing the character gets to choose how they look, what they wear, and how people see them. It doesn't matter if anyone else likes it or not...its their character, and their decision. The way it should be. Period.

WeatherMan wrote:

I think that after 15 pages of (suprisingly on subject) posts, I think one could be forgiven for not reading one thoroughly. I only pointed out the one that I did because you were specifically addressing Ahlana about a point that she (at least I think that Ahlana is a she) had already addressed.
As to how a client side art mod would enable cheating, if you have played Counterstrike or Quake, you might have run into players using mods to do things like negating stealth or highlighting underprotected areas on a character. But it can also be worse then that - unfortunately there are some suprisingly good programmers out there who choose to abuse their talents to use create "client side" mods that greatly improve their accuracy, allow them to ignore cover, reveal the locations of weapon & ammo drops, and such things. While I don't understand how it is done from a technical standpoint, I know that it really is done. (As it is, enough players have shown the ability to hack even "server side" games like WoW or EQ2 to force the companies to have to take a hard line on this.)
And, you mis-read my second point. I did not say that "client side" modification would increase server lag. I said that "server side" modification would increase server lag. You are correct, "client side" modification would not cause much LAG (except for that user), but "server side" modification does increase LAG for everyone. And "server side" modification was essentially what was being asked for (i.e., since we are not allowed to make these changes ourselves, we want SOE to put these graphical options into the game, and have the game make these changes).
(Beyond that, we agree on the third point. )

WeatherMan wrote:

Pssst... I'm not in the least bit upset. The extra emphasis in my post was to help Ahlana see where her post failed to communicate her desires... especially in that her SOGA comparison was just as poor an example as her choice of words when describing armor.

Oh, all right...

I'm a 35-year-old female gamer. I've loved fantasy all my life. I tend to be fairly liberal in my thinking, with a small Puritanical streak in certain areas. I love Vallejo-type women and their outfits, along with strapping young men in nice, tight breeches. I'm an artist, and when I was younger it was my dream to illustrate for Heavy Metal Magazine. That's the kind of stuff I draw, because I love to look at it.

One of the things I love about fantasy is just that---it's FANTASY. If I'm watching a sword-and-sorcery epic, I have absolutely no problems watching females run around in skin-revealing clothing. If I'm, say, at the mall, I *do* have a problem with 15-year-old girls with their thongs sticking out and teeny-tiny shirts that leave little to the imagination. I'm not saying what's right or wrong, just my opinions.

Now. One of the reasons I love playing fantasy-based games is that although I am confident and happy with my fine self in real-life, I will never be able to look like Antonia. Not ever. And I'd like to some days, ya know? So I log on to EQ II and project my *fantasy* onto my virtual avatar. And personally, I'd like to wear on that avatar what I can't (or won't) wear in real life. She will never have a bad hair day. She will never have a laundry day where she's got to wear sweatpants. She will always be toned and buff and I LOVE THAT. And I'd love the option to wear outfits on her that are probably against the laws of physics, history, practicality and most likely my hometown. And I'd love to see these outfits on other people as well, should they choose to wear them.

Because...oh wait. Right. It's FANTASY. The realm of fantasy has always been, and hopefully always will be, populated with gorgeous women and lusty men. Some of them wear beautiful, intricate armour that leaves everything to the imagination, some wear something somewhere in between, and some of them wear outfits smaller than some Kleenex I've used. And you know what? It's all good. I love it all, because it's not real.

Again, the operative word here is "choice". And this also boils down to this: if you don't like "chainmail bikinis" (to use the popular term being bandied about), isn't a game based on fantasy and its long-standing iconic looks perhaps not the best game for you to be playing? I mean, if you really don't want to see any of this stuff, perhaps you should be playing The Sims. And staying in your house. Or maybe soon there will be "Regular World" MMO where nobody (outside of those of us that haunt Ren Faires) ever wears chainmail bikinis.

And just two last points I'm surprised no one has mentioned (although a pic was posted that almost addressed it):

The SK dark elf armour in EQ I was awesome. I LOVED the skulls on the knees. It was otherworldy enough that I felt quite "fantastical" wearing it. There was a nice shape to it and yet still felt that I could engage in combat. In a virtual, fantasy world, that is.

And secondly, to all the people crying for historical realism...do YOU really want to go into Everfrost and face a horde of blue-painted, naked men and women with bones braided into their hair screaming at you? Because many of the early Celts went into battle in just such a practical outfit. Be lucky the Barbarians here can't designate somebody to be a piper and play the Ceol Mohr on their mastercrafted set of bagpipes.

Hey, now *there's* an idea for a dirge....

A well put post.
One thing Id like to note however is who's fantasy it is.. just as Boris's paintings are his fantasy not that of the viewer, the models in EQ2 are the SOE teams fantasy. I am happy to have choices, and I have my own ideas for what I would like them to do with the games visuals, but I acknowledge that it isnt, cannot be and shouldnt be a 'sandbox' where you can make your character look like whatever YOU want. We are invited to engage in, and make our choices within, THEIR fantasy world.

shaunfletcher wrote:

"You're In Our World Now!"

Well, you are.
No need to be childish about it though.

shaunfletcher wrote:

True. But wasn't that EQ's slogan for the longest time?

dunno, but if it was it was apt