Kaitar wrote: Question. Is there anyone out here right now who could dispute the logic of this argument? I understand the fact that this is one of those elusive "female gamers" reinforces this argument. Make armor interesting. Make it unique. Just keep it tasteful. Is there really any dispute here? I hope SOE doesn't buckle to the horny teenager/lonely adult male and start releasing female armors that look like negligees and leotards. Its embarrassing to play games that are so gratuitously hinging on sex to sell their product. @ Weatherman, I believe that Blissful Awareness was removed because of artistic issues associated with it in regard to female toons. The idea behind BA was that it was literally a metallic disc that was held with leather straps over your chest. With females, the metal appeared to wrap around her breast. It didn't fit, they weren't satisfied with the way it worked, so they removed it. I'm down with keeping artistic standards, even though I was one of the people who went back and plowed through that early level quest to get it. I got it, went to my house, put it on, went "ooh...ahhh" for a few moments, then put my chestpiece back on and into the bank it went. So it really wasn't that big of a deal to me when they changed it. And you did, in fact, keep what you earned. They just changed the graphic. And considering that it probably took you no more than 10 minutes to get, you probably shouldn't be getting so worked up about it. Granted, appearance slots changes things, but the fact that it looked stupid on a female toon remains. I would be okay with them bringing it back if they made it male only or something. Actually, I would rather see them start from scratch and have some direction with their armor art. Like the lady I quoted above pointed out, lets have some themed armor. I would KILL for a suit of Samurai armor; heck, it might actually give me a reason to go to Mara every once and a while.
<-- Elusive Female Gamer hiding behind a male toon and this topic is one of the top reasons why I would do that. EQ2 does a great job of hinting at the female form without smacking you in the face with it. I hope that continues but ill still prefer to run around in male drag. If you cant handle tasteful coverage go play Lineage2.
TorturedOne21 wrote: Answering your question - yes, there is much to dispute there. For some, it appears that what we might see everyday in real life, everywhere, is labeled as trashy or sluty when it comes to in game attire. A bit of bare leg is right away a sign of a hooker to these folks. I presume these people never leave their homes or do they perhaps reside in a convent? When this topic arises you can always expect the usual cards to be played. Generally these cards are played by the second page of any thread on the topic. First card always played is the "chain mail bikini" card. This is a popular card to play. For some posters, they think of the "chain mail bikini" card as a slam dunk. Obviously, if you do not favor burkas, you must want chain mail bikinis. After all, there is no middle ground. This was a winning play during EQ2's initial design phase when our esteemed devs lost to this gambit and adopted the burka style we have today. The next most popular card to play is the realism card. This is also a very popular card. These folks demand realism in a high fantasy game. They have no problem swimming in full plate, having some dweeb healing their wounds with a wave of their hands or another shooting fireballs out of their ****, but when it comes to armor it must be "real". They feel they are playing a medieval combat simulator and not a fantasy game. They conveniently ignore anything else that is not real but latch on to the realism in armor mantra. Go figure. "Children play these games" is another popular card. Falling prey to this card requires a person to believe that the entire subscriber base lives in Afghanistan. No child of any current subscriber is ever apparently taken to the beach during the summer, because those children would be scarred for life by what they might see there. Then we have a series of cards with rather engaging names to play. Some of this deck are known as the "hooker" card, "bimbo" card, "****" card, etc. Any in game attire that displays more than 3 square inches of skin will trigger the use of one of these cards. Now the strangest thing of all. Developers, particurlarly here in the states, are bright enough to know that high fantasy armor, and yes that does sometimes entail a bit of skin, sells. They invariably always feature it on their box art. However, they then do a 180 and conclude that these same folks who purchased that box do not want it in game. If they should wake up one day, and follow through with in game armor design that mimics their box art and cinematic trailers, they just might find that they had a hit on their hands. Until that day arrives, I guess we are stuck with burkas.
DuskNightfall wrote: <---- Elusive Female Gamer who plays both femal and male characters I'm not asking for smut. I'm asking for variety. You can reveal a bit of arm and not look like a streetwalker, unless you hail from the Victorian era? It is possible to reveal a bit of skin and still be tastefully covered. The difference would be like me walking into a room with a full length skirt onor walking into the room with a skirt that's just a couple of inches below the knee. I'm not asking to walk into the room with a miniskirt.
Sapphirius wrote: Variety would be great. Yes I agree you can reveal some flesh without looking like a hooker or a gigolo. But like the first quote, I agree that games like Lineage 2 take it too far and I'd hate to see that in this game, though I doubt it'd get that extreme, frankly BUT I think it's important that people let SOE know we don't WANT it to get that extreme just in case. You never know. I don't think anyone here is asking for less variety, I think the debate lies within the fact people keep assuming that those who say they don't want "too revealing " and "too skimpy" are prudes who want every inch covered. Likewise (though there have been a few posts arguing FOR quite skimpy armor on this thread) I think most people who want things "sexier" don't necessarily mean the old chainmail bikini path. Middle ground. Wonderful thing. Variety? yes please. Attractive without trashy? Really who would argue against that? The fact is a lot of games ARE more catered to a male taste but that is changing as more and more women/girls begin to become "gamers". The industry is going to have to find a happy medium between eye candy and respectful. You can't please everyone all the time but you can probably make the majority happy by going middle of the road in a case like this. If SOE does that...gives us variety, nice looking armor with some tasteful "sex appeal" but doesn't make it so you feel creeped out by rolling a female character who is getting weird /tells and oogled when she puts on her armor... that's the goal to shoot for.
TorturedOne21 wrote: You make the quantum leap that anyone who actually likes Antonia Bayle's armor would be drawn to the game to get their fantasy rocks off and have the nerve to call me a drama queen? Is that why you go to the beach? To get your rocks off? That would make as much sense. Really not much point in debating the issue, they will be sticking with the burka anyway. SOE is incapable of of making attractive armor designs in any event. The appearance slots are nothing more than a band aid to compensate for the utter lack of attractive armor sets in the entire game. Their total lack of even the slightest creativity in armor design is apalling and has been since release. The game basically has one robe, retextured and recolored ad nauseum. The leather armor would look more fitting on a N.Y. Rangers goalie than it would ever look in a fantasy setting and they've retextured and recolored that to death as well. I'm certainly not expecting a suden burst of inspiration from EQ2's armor designers at this point. Many here have mentioned L2 in the debate and although I agree that they took the dark elf females armor too far, I find the rest of their armor extremely well done. Their portrayal of the light elf female is perhaps the finest portrayal of a female elf in any game. They gave them an air of haughtiness and grace that fits them to a tee. However, even mention them and we will be hearing about how you can see - omg - their panties when they cast. How shocking. I have also seen a lot of concern about ratings and loss of a teen rating. Guess what L2 is rated? It couldn't be rated teen, could it? I would say EQ2 is in no danger of losing a teen rating, in fact, EQ2 could get a nun rating at this point. Much of these games has to do with the "cool" factor. I dare say EQ2's armor designs have all but forgotten that looking good is important to many folks. The last bit of real creativity I have seen from the EQ2 team was years before release with the female palladin armor, at least I think it was a palladin, the white and gold one. Just about everyone loved that armor model and if designs of that quality and style actually made it into the game I'm certain EQ2 would be far healthier today. Not going to happen, that ship has sailed.
just my 2 cents: I consider that eq1 post Luclin High Elf leather and plate, dark Elf plate, Half Elf plate, and Wood Elf leather and plate female armors very astouding =) From any perspective. If you not familiar with them- go to allakhazam eq1 fasion section. NONE of them were plate/wahtever bikinis, but they were simply marvelous and highly fantasy inspiring to my imagination. High Elf female plate was especialy remarkeable. I made High Elf paladin with silver plate just to take screnshots of her (would never play paladin otherwise) - it was that good. eq2 grafic is decent- specialy if have REALY powerful PC to turn on all the options. But ist just not "hot" enough =) few samples
I'll address just this part, since the rest seems to have already been taken up by others. What you say may very well be correct (removed due to female toon artistic issues). Regardless, the arguments they presented were half-baked excuses, underhanded evasions, and outright lies. I don't know about you, but I despise being treated like a mushroom. Now, is the fact that it is a revealing garment that makes a female avatar 'eye candy' something I will totally dismiss in my argument? Not at all - but frankly, barely-covered flesh (in my opinion, mind you) is much less unhealthy than attacking your opponent and butchering them like a stuck pig. I am much more comfortable leaving a Playboy magazine out where my 15-year-old son can see it than allowing him to watch a movie where someone's head gets turned into a spray of crimson vapor courtesy of a high-powered firearm. Basically, the argument seems to be (seems to be, mind you) that its okay to let your avatar do a Pol Pot imitation on other sentients, but it is not okay to show a bare stomach and (God forbid!) a dash of cleavage. This mindset, to me, makes absolutely zero sense. And no, we did not get to keep what we earned. By your logic, if I go to a restaurant and order steak and shrimp, but then they abruptly take it away and substitute liver and lungfish because of 'presentation issues', well, that's okay, it only took me five minutes to order from their menu, so no harm done. It's still 'Surf 'N Turf', after all, and I still get to pay for it, tip included No. In a case like that, I call the manager out on the carpet and dress them down like a boot camp recruit, and anything short of their parentage is fair game for my ire. And this is absolutely no different - the only variation in the scenario being that SOE can give people like me the finger because enough other people are willing to sit in the mulch and have compost dropped on their heads. And the graphic looked stupid...to you. I am sure there are people who loved it, just as I am sure there are others like me who, at the end of the day, considered it simply another clothing option (key word being option). Personally, the appearance is a secondary issue to what I've already discussed/ranted about. In my opinion, if Player A wants to dress like a red-light district denizen, that's fine. Whatever. Its their choice, and its not only none of my business, it isn't my place to dictate what another person's toon can or cannot wear. That is simply too presumptuous. I think SOGA elves look absolutely hideous, for example, and they offend my aesthetic senses to no end, but even though I wish they would go away, I have absolutely no right, none whatsoever, to enforce my tastes and standards on those who think that those graphics are more representative of their avatars. That's just a little too Taliban for me to stomach.
Another female gamer here.. (You'd be surprised, there are a lot of us..) I think some people here are going way into extremes.. Tasteful does not have to translate out to "covered from head to toe" like we have now. Just as the idea of showing a little skin does not automatically mean people want to look like hookers. You can dress tastefully and still show a bit of skin, it is possible. I am considered a pretty modest dresser in real life.. but you know, I still might wear a neckline that isn't a turtle neck. I just might show a little bit of my arms or legs. It's not the end of the world. No, I don't want my character to look like a *****, like she's ready for a hot night in bed or anything.. but seriously? I don't enjoy looking like a nun, either. It's possible to have nice looking clothes, a variety, some showing skin, some not. Many styles to choose from.. I hope they keep that in mind when the revamp is in place.
LoL... someone pointed out EQ1... I remember when my human female paladin first wore chainmail... chainmail g-string... so naughty... I also remember dark elf females showing butt in leather I think it was... But, anyway, to the argument at hand... There is "sexxy" and there is "slutty". SOME of us have a hard time seeing the difference. Sexxy is like a woman in a black cocktail dress looking good... slutty... well, go to hooters. I DO want to see some more appealing armors and robes. Personally, when I think of a female enchanter, I typically imagine like a high elf in something "sexy" and luring people etc. This "sexy" isn't nipple clamps and a bikini!!! Heck, the clothes I imagine for it are already in the game lmao... very few ever wear it though =\ There is only ONE way we can get around this problem people... make all armors universal for all. By this, I mean, if by sheer chance we do get the metallic g-string... then by the Gods, let my MALE OGRE wear it too! Everyone can agree that sexxy can be appealing, attractive, and enjoyable... slutty is something that offends.
I'd welcome armour/clothes variety and options. There are differences evoked by the descriptive words bandied about. And they're subjective so folk can feel something different to another anyway. But for me... Beautiful is something artful, crisp, divine. It's the eyes and a warm smile. It's patterns and filigree. Gorgeous is lush and earthy. It's in the curves of a body. It's a suit of armour, or a lamia. Pretty is knowing something is attractive but not feeling moved by it, it's a models face that fails to get you salivating. Cute is innocent, not contrived, its a button nose. It's a gnome scout. Sexy is charged up, it's attitude, it's awareness of the effect one can have on others, it's a slow walk and lascivious expression. It's a dark elf brawler. Slutty is dirty, not any of the above, but effectively tugs on less savoury hooks, it's raw, it's groping. It's skanky. And I'd frankly welcome all of them. I wouldn't overly care if someone wanted to look slutty, I wouldn't want to, nor would I find it an attractive option to look upon, but it wouldn't alarm me. There's a certain Victorian morality going on, repression, with us affecting shock as that kinda thing, while accepting brutality. The Victorians got us putting milk in our tea, but they got a lot to be blamed for eh. Regardless, all I think anyone wants is greater variety, options, diversity in armour/clothing graphics. Rather than the same half dozen graphic cranked out and re-coloured ad nauseum. I'd love some beautiful elven designs. Some gorgeous humans, and barbarians designs. Some pretty fae designs. Some cute gnome and halfling designs. Some sexy dark elf designs. Some solid dwarven designs. Some rotten troll designs. Some brutal ogre designs. All sorts of evocative designs. Playing with the cut of the cloth or metal, and the colours and patterns slapped on them. Who is anyone to say no to another interpretation of those descriptive words anyway? What one may consider slutty may not be anothers interpretation of it. Certainly, some attention needs paying to the amount and locations of skin shown, for the sake of certification - but one person may not find ripped hosiery offensive but an appealing thing to depict on their character, and who is to say otherwise? The devs of course, as rightly or wrongly whatever they say goes, and the will of the collective that is the community. We can only say what works for us, but can't really assume to be speaking absolute truths and tell anyone they're wrong eh.
Wyrmypops wrote: I aprrove of this set of meanings with my seal of arrpoval. Thats Wood Seal of course, does exactly what it says on the tin. I have to say though, slutty males would be... err... 'interesting' (but not like that " /> ). (also my mind wanted to read: "Some slutty dwarven designs." since that was the only one not said from the list... an 'interesting' image no less)
Romero@Mistmoore wrote: This is the most sensible statement I have seen in this entire thread, and I'm behind it 100%! Someone noted that the armor in the opening trailer to EQ2 was perfect - I note in that the women are showing off a lot of skin (and I do very much love Opal Darkbriar's outfit - give me that for my dark elf!), but the guys are in the full armor that is currently in game. I say any piece of armor or clothing that shows of fem flesh should show off the exact same male flesh. If we get the infamous chainmail bikini, then I want guys in chainmail speedos and cut-off muscle-Ts! Variety, please! And just to clarify my position, as much as I think the peasant skirts with the cut-to-the-crotch missing panels are slutty, this is my current favorite in-game outfit for female characters: Please note this shows off MORE skin than the tailor-made fluff dresses or the opulent gold blouse and skirt. The difference? This is obviously designed from top to bottom to be sexy and stylish. Gold lace! Variegated, patterned fabric! Choker and leg cuffs to match! This is the equivalent of formal evening wear - the proverbial little black dress. The fluff dresses look like the equivalent of someone taking a knife to a pair of jeans rather than buying shorts, and deciding to cut the legs off as high as possible and still have two holes to put their legs through. The opulent stuff tries, but given it's the exact same design as the farmer's wife cutoff skirt, for me the bad-taste setting is already there. Just to go back to the original point, here's the male version: The bare shoulders are a nice start, and it does form-fit well. Not as revealing as the female formal ensemble, but nice. Still - what is up with the chainmail skirt and the WWF Championship belt? And why do all the women's dress clothes leave them barefoot but guys get some soft leather boots at least? Can we have slippers, please? Maybe a cute sandal? I'll take heels at this point, but please, give us shoes! You know they never clean up behind those horses and wargs on patrol right away...
6 inch heels with ankel straps/lace probably don't fit the universe but they look good so why not! Personaly I have always liked the idea for males of 'tights' (think pirate movies or robin hood), thigh length leather boots, big thick belt, and fancy white shirt and big waffly hat approch (bare chest optional when sailing in the hard sun...). Swashucklers get all the ladies :\ The problem with looking good as a male is that all the males look really the stupid, from the very feminine look of the high elfs to the super square jaw of the wood elfs to the "no self respecting dark elf female would be seen with THAT" dark elfs. The humans end up looking silly most of the time and need lots of work to actualy get anywhere useful (I got somewhere 3 times but at least I got somewhere). The only male worth anything is the kerra because kerra are hot. So no matter the armour, males often look silly (at least from my point of view, maybe females have lower standards then I imagine lol) and less clothes makes them look... well... yeah REALLY silly. But I certianly have no problem parading around my computer game self in something that is lacking in substance (I loved the no shirt change but theres no style in it, you need a open shirt, wafting in the wind etc... but thats out of the question here).
Kamimura wrote: Yeah .. i don't understand why people always come with the chain-bikini thing. Is it really too much flesh shown in this armor for example ? I don't think so, but it has a lot more style then what we have. Or this one .. it really covers everything but is still sexy.
