A question for discussion: Crafted item quality levels (crude, shaped, regular, pristine)

I agree with that on the nest method, I'd not crafted there personally (hate that zone tbh) but perhaps you keep your raws, but lose fuel if anything. That way seems best, imo. I don't mind either way with regards of returned raws, however I do strongly like the nest design of tradeskilling.

I'm not really sure I understand everything you posted; however, if the new system could result in making it harder to get pristine items then I am against it. Rares are hard to come by and take hours upon hours to harvest and if one buys the rare from the market they are very expensive. I would not desire to have a new system that would increase the chance to not make a pristine item and lose my rare. Also fuels are extremely expensive in the upper tiers and the number required is high; thus one could sink alot of money into a tradeskill if they failed and would have no product to even sell to recoup some of the lost fuel cost. If one would could not lose the rare or the fuels then I would be for the change since the current system is very boring.
And I agree with another person that posted, most crafted items are not a desired item in the game except to maybe the casual players such as myself. I craft all of the weapon, clothes etc needed for my toons. Many of the player base are only interested in fabled items that are raid drops, and unfortunatly many of the treasured items make the crafted items non-desirable since they have better stats etc. Prior to you taking the position over crafting, many of our handmade items were nerfed such as ebon armor. Also, if you examine the xegonite armor that is a tier above the cobalt it is really not worth making; since, the xegonite armor is only slightly better than the cobalt.
Also, I would like to see the quality of the created items improved; thus, making them more desirable. Currently other than crafting for myself there is very little market value in crafted items past lev 50. After lev 50 most people are getting set items, or legendary items preparing themselves for raiding and then they move onto fabled gear.
Im not saying that the crafter should be able to make gear compared to fabled gear or there would be no need to raid. So don't flame me raiders lol. But I am saying that the items we now make are below the standards and need a boost to make them a desireable item. After level 60 I look for treasured or legendary items on the market or drops, to outfit my toons since what I make cannot compare.
Last, welcome to EQ2 :-D we look forward to your new plans for the crafting community. Whatever you decide I'm sure it will work out fine.

as of yet im undecided on this issue. im a little nervous to be honest.
the first thing that i thought about when i read through all this was a concern that it would eventually lead to the kind of tradeskill system in eq1 where you put the items in, hit create, and your done. if you gathered all the items ahead of time you could litterally max out your skill (atleast as a potter) in one day. it also made for some very boring crafting. atleast now i get to use abilites to change the outcome and have atleast some marginal level of interaction.
it also brought to mind the tinkering system. while it was nice having some raws returned based on bars completed, the sheer volume of raws used to begin with was large, and even after having raws returned you still spent more raws than any other tradeskill. (the exeption was the mendor bot that returned all the xegonite before that got fixed). would this mean that items would cost more so we would end up harvesting more in the end? or give a leading edge to play buyers that dont have to worry about all the harvesting? and what affect would the raw consumption vs return system have on the current sales market? currently you can tell when a new batch of tinkers begins skilling up as the prices of loams and ores climbs alot for that period of time, and once they move on to the next tier, the price returns to normal. also would this eventually lead to a skill up system down the road? i do not like that idea.
my next conern was the basis of each tier. in carpentry (yes im a carpenter so that comes to mind first, lol.) there are different status points for each tier of combine. during the lower levels (generally 40 and below at the time) of my career, i found that those that were worried about status reduction would pay for pristine combines, while those that only wanted (the look) of an item would pay a lesser amount for a lesser quality combine. especially when it came to new players that could not afford the better items but still wanted to decorate their homes. with my brother having a jeweler, i remember having to examine each tier of combine to see the available stats on the end result. when bringing up my fury through the lower tiers there were a few items that i wanted a different quality level for a difference in stats. mind you both of these examples were prior lu24, but i dont see alot of the market value as being changed since.
and again another concern for the rather difficult tier 1 recipies with no durability buffs. hard enough being a new crafter and new to the game. but if getting no item return, regardless of the quality level, i could see the new folks getting discouraged very quickly.
i do like the idea that less work on designing items for each quality level by the developers means a possiblity of more time for the developers to gain new items. but i do worry about long term effects and directions. each major change opens up some new possibilites and routes for change while eliminating some old possibilities and routes of change. i do want to avoid a simple create or fail system. while the current method of getting pristines is easy, it is only so if you actually pay attention. i do still get mortified once in awhile by failing a combine because i fell asleep at the keyboard. but above and beyond all that there was an original purpose and design around each quality level and a balancing system to each class to compensate. how will this affect that? the sages that no longer make the different spell levels, the carpenters that no longer have different status amounts, the jewelers that no longer have the stat differences, the provisioners who no longer make different amounts of food and drink.
as i said i am still undecided on this issue, these are just a few of the thoughts running through my head as i try to see initial and long term impact of a change like this, and thought i would put them out for discussion.

Skill system is effectively ruled out by the current desire to keep classes as is and the sheer practical pain it would be to rewrite all of it. The process as well was clearly stated as remaining essentially the same so EQ1 clicky combines are out of the question. Plat buyers shouldn't even come up in these situations. I don't buy plat but my playtime/style make me not worry so much about resource costs. That being said, tinkering costs were seen for their absurdity and adjusted so it would be pretty silly for the devs, especially this one, to put in exorbitant resource costs- especially since it would defeat the point. Should the nest change be the one to go through, she has already said that they would not shaft t1 crafters so it will certainly be accounted for. All items currently cost the exact same to bring into the world no matter the cost. Non-pristines should be an aberration as they are now across the board worse than pristine for the same input. As such, the value of a non- pristine is not something to be considered as even now crafters try as best they can to avoid it and non-pristine results almost always get vendored. That help?

Deson wrote:

actually yeah, i sorta walked away and realised that i didnt exactly type what i wanted and may have come accross like a dope. so i come running back to the comp debating on the ethics of the good old "edit" button, but alas, in that short time there was a witness /gasp
i pretty much had similar thoughts you did after rethinking my post. guess i should use that notepad program now before posting LOL. may the magic blue fairy wave her wand and make my prior post disappear, or atleast give folks good humor when reading it. :-D

Heh unfortunately for us sometimes we do our best thinking after the fact. No harm though and at least your questions may have answered someone elses

[p]My ideal change would be to go with 2 possible results - crude/pristine maybe.[/p][p]Spells/combat arts would be produced in app3 and app4 only as app1 is gained automatically and app2 can be store bought therefore not really needed as crafted options.[/p][p]Additional to this i would also like to see the option of being able to break down existing crafted items for a small return in resources (but not fuel) in a similar way that tinkering works. Something along the lines of[/p][p]- 25% chance of returning 1x primary component (can't be 100% if to be allowed with rare resources, and could even be lower than 25%)[/p][p]- 1x of every type of secondary component[/p][p] [/p]

My 2c worth:
Pristine Reward:
Pristine item (unless you're doing a writ, of course), XP, Bonus XP for first combine, small quantity of raws returned. Bonus chance of a skill-up.
Non-pristine Reward:
No item, no XP, all raws returned. (Fuel used).

While I'm here; I'd like to see more +tradeskill items in game, there are some, but few and far between ~ perhaps these extra items could be crafted too (I know there are some tinkering ones, but why not tools, clothing and jewellery too?) I think that crafting tables are due a boost (containing extra slots for raws & fuel, even an increased percentage chance of getting rare events to counter) ~ maybe they could be add-ons crafted by carpenters, for example. I'd like to see status items for sale like a Go-for (an apprentice who can be placed in your house to run errands, perhaps giving you access to the local broker and/or tradeskill writs).

[p]Lvl 70 Carpenter here.[/p][p]As you rightly point out, there is no value in creating anything other than Pristine. Also, Pristine (after T1) is pretty easy to achieve. So crafting is essentially a case of sitting there, spamming buttons, until you get pristine.[/p][p]It doesn't take a lot of skill, or luck. Even with a string of bad luck, you can get pristine by spamming the right buttons.[/p][p]Back in the day (shush you old fool), when we had sub-combines, or when the crafting arts weren't quite so effective, it was a challenge to get Pristine.[/p][p]Nowadays, for most items, even the Pristine is overhshadowed by loot drops (for equipment) or quest rewards.[/p][p]So that leaves you with making (this is where I am lucky) items only available to you (using rares for example for Adept 3's) such as strong boxes, backpacks, furniture, potions and posions[/p][p]Which means you end up slaving away for a long time just spamming buttons, making the pristine versions of the small number of items you can make which will sell.[/p][p]Anything, that makes the tedium of spamming buttons less will be welcomed.[/p][p]Make the crafting process shorter. 1 or 2 bars. Would work well[/p][p]Only giving one product (the pristine) would work ok, but not if you had to still sit there and spam to do it, might as well leave it as is.[/p][p]Giving different amounts of ingredients back depending on how successfull you are would be a nice reward for those willing to persevere, but also allow quick crafting when needed - my preferred approach.[/p][p]If this then lets you add more recipes (please please please for carpenters, 2 per level is ludicrous) then I am all for it, supportive, cheering you on, waving the flag, juggling the pom poms etc etc.[/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]

The only challenge in getting pristine before under the pre-KoS system was actually having the patience to make all the required subs pristine- and even then only those that needed to be. The mechanic itself is the same as it was at launch essentially.It was never truly a challenge though some old metalsmiths might tell you it was risky.

Oh yes, my first death on my old weaponsmith was from the forge after I had just pressed the right button to counter a white hot metal event and due to the queuing system it didn't register correctly (was hitting progress from a lower tier after having used durability before). :-?

As long as the rare combines are kept the same I would go with the no product below pristine way. I don't want to see rares being wasted if a bad reaction drops the duribility from halfway through the 4th bar to 3rd bar complete in one cycle.

[p]Ok...[/p][p]I think the quality concept is a good one, but only if there is actually a different in the product. Right now, the only difference between a shaped and pristine piece of vanguard armor is a point or two in stats and the inability to imbue it (if it is a bp/legs). That's it, no change in mitigation, no change in wearability, just a couple stat points... In some ways, I like the way it used to be where the quality level changed the level it could be worn.[/p][p]On the concept of using quality of materials, I'd love it. But I would think it would need some changes to the harvesting side of things to pull it off, because how do you determine quality? Is it just a random fluxuation? Does the quality of the sub components matter, or only the primary (something I thought was stupid in the subcombine version)? What impact on wearable level would it have?[/p]

[p]It sounds as if overall there's a fair level of comfort with a "Nest" type recipe system.[/p][p]For those who haven't crafted in The Nest, I imagine it would apply to new recipes like this: [/p][p]Let's take an imaginary level 75 carpenter item, the Rotating Golden Meat Bucket. Let's say the primary component is the rare ore "Goldstone", and the secondary components are 6 wood, 4 ore, and 2 roots. (Totally invented numbers and names.)[/p][ul][li]Crude level --> returns 1 goldstone.[/li][li]Shaped level --> returns 1 goldstone and 2 wood.[/li][li]Regular level --> returns 1 goldstone and 4 wood.[/li][li]Pristine level --> Rotating Golden Meat Bucket! [/li][/ul][p]So, if you go LD or just aren't paying attention, you lose some harvests and your fuel cost, but you still get your rare back to try again. If it were a common combine and the primary ingredient was something common, then you could get that common back in addition to some secondary components. Not a full return on harvests, but a bit.[/p][p]The actual process of reaching pristine level is the same, no harder and no easier. (To answer an earlier question, I actually could make it a little harder to get pristine in a couple of ways (some of which are already used in The Nest recipes), but I think difficulty is a separate topic and right now I'm just focusing on the actual products, not making things either harder or easier.[/p][p]And once again, at this point this would only apply to new recipes added from now on. Redoing older stuff would be a time-consuming task to consider after other more interesting tradeskill changes. [/p][p](For the technically minded: as it works right now, at each level of quality completed I can have it return a primary product (e.g. your rare back, or a crude rotating golden meat bucket) and any number of ONE type of secondary product. So, I could give you back 20 roots as a byproduct, or half your fuel, but not 10 roots AND 10 ore. So, as far as I've figured out anyway, returning ALL components on a fail is an option, but one can be returned besides giving you back the primary.)[/p]

As said, I'm indiff but partial to the resource return myself. Think the question would be easier/clearer if we knew what kind of resource use we were looking at with either choice. Right now total resource use is climbing pretty high- especially for outfitters in their main ingredient. Actually, is resource usage being looked at? Because with what you posted, the first two things that pop to mind are t6 and 7 tailoring for roots and pelts.Since you don't have direct control over resource placement, that's a serious concern here. Don't get me wrong, both choices are an improvement but, I'd like a fuller picture.

Thought: particularly once you start hitting T5 and up where fuel cost can be several gold per recipe, the biggest item for crafters (other than a rare) is the fuel, not commons. T5 alchemist common recipes cost me 2 loam and close to 80s for fuel. Roots and gems don't matter, roots I always have tons of and gems I can buy for a silver a stack on the broker, the only things that are expensive or require effort to get are the fuel and loams. Given a choice, I'd rather get part or all of my fuel cost back rather than secondaries that I'm literally destroying stacks of after every harvest run because it's not worth wasting a box or broker slot on them. NB: the ingredient worth varies by craft since each craft uses a different menu. You might want to go look at costs on the broker for tradeskill raws to see what crafters might care about having to replace and what they might not.

well, I'll be honest, I've never crafted anything from the nest, as my high level crafter is only a lvl 31 adventurer so it isn't something he is likely to be able to do and my high level adventure is only a lvl 35 crafter (even though he has 2 of the recipes now), so he is a bit too low to do them.
But over all, they sound decent from those who speak of them, but I can't give my personal opinion on them...

I like the concept. I also like that crude wouldn't return more than the prime component. How about returning some fuel with the pristine Now, how would this affect potions/poisons, food/drink, totems, and ammo? Right now they only have 1 type of product returned just differing amounts based on the quality amount. Would you leave them as is or put them in the same structure? Poisons/Potions and ammo return different amounts for each of the quality levels, but totems and food/drink only have a few variations (2 amount for food/drink and, I think, 3 for totems). One possibility, I would think, is to leave poisons/potions and ammo as is and change food/drink and totems into a modified version where the redundant quality levels (those that return the same amount) are changed so only the highest of them yeilds that while the others follow the same structure as the other crafting (the no product return with possible raw return). Also, how will this affect the one and only by-product? Right now the Dust required for making mastercrafted potions and poisons is a by-product of making adept IIIs. If one makes an adept III to pristine, 2 dusts are returned. For shaped and 'normal', only one is returned (none at crude, shame on all the jewelers, sages, and alchemists who are lazy and stop at crude). If there is no product except at pristine, would that mean 2 dusts for every product? or, are you considering doing away with the by-product all-together and giving mastercrafted potions and poisons a different primary component (like the imbue items that many would love to see allowing alchemy rare crafting, other than CAs/spells, to linked to harvesting like every other craft)? IF you are considering changing the Dust requirement, could you make that change to the other teirs as well, not just for consistency (though that IS a importance) but to apease the throngs of alchemists who hate having the only dependency in this tradeskill system (even if each class had an exact equal number of active characters all wanting adept IIIs, only 1/4 come from alchemy, the rest have to come from jewelers and sages). Changing a primary component in all recipes of a type is probably not as difficult as dropping 3 products from most every existing recipe Or, you could even give alchemists their own "refine" recipe (keeping them as the only craft with a sub-combine) to make imbue stuff into powder (and, no, that's not what alchemist adept IIIs are).

[p]I'll be honest, I'd be happier with something like this...[/p][p]Tiers 1-3, you get the product and regular xp. (with quantity adjustments for the food/ammo stuff)[/p][p]Tier 4, you get the product and it costs you no materials (except fuel) and a pristine bonus to xp (repeatable, not a one time event, this would get rid of the advantage scholars get, but not get rid of the bonus completely)[/p][p]Make the over all process much harder, so that pristine isn't a common event, but since you get the same product at each tier, it doesn't really matter, those who strive to be really good, can get a bonus for being good, those who want to get it done can forgo the bonus.[/p]

Nothing wrong with thinking it through on the fourms. If you're thinking it, someone else probably is too, and if nothing else you posted a valid initial reaction. Several people's (me included) first thought was "dumbing down!!!". The second thoughts are more rational, lol.